May 2018 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Saving a Smalltalk Project

by Marten Feldtmann

>From my current experiences ... the people do not choose OODBs, because in the mainstream languages the stuff is simply not visible (market share). The knowledge is not there and the biggest problem - a programming interfaces are not available. People use RDBMS oder NoSQl systems, because these systems offer a programming model to developers - even if they are simply bad. And they offer language independent access to the data. Some people are moving from RDBMS to NoSQL-system, because they hope to get more OO-programming in the database. Thats also a problem with Gemstone/S. Its a wonderful database, but it offers no default programming model to external developers - so it will never be attractive to non-Smalltalk developers. Am 06.05.2018 um 23:08 schrieb Todd Blanchard: > It sounds great...until something goes wrong. I wouldnât choose it for important data. I might use it as a local cache. Especially when it has a single maintainer I could go to for help. > > > Sent from the road > >> On May 6, 2018, at 11:44, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> >> Todd Blanchard <tblanchard(a)mac.com> wrote: >>> Just out of curiosity, why do you want an OODB? >> >> http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5602 >> >> >> >> >

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Saving a Smalltalk Project

by Todd Blanchard

It sounds great...until something goes wrong. I wouldnât choose it for important data. I might use it as a local cache. Especially when it has a single maintainer I could go to for help. Sent from the road > On May 6, 2018, at 11:44, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > > Todd Blanchard <tblanchard(a)mac.com> wrote: >> Just out of curiosity, why do you want an OODB? > > http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5602 > > > >

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Saving a Smalltalk Project

by Todd Blanchard

Postgres is indeed awesome - but pretty heavy for a resource constrained IoT client. Itâs great on the server though. Sent from the road > On May 6, 2018, at 10:36, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > PostgreSQL is a totally valid alternative as well. It is a real RDBMS, cross platform, open source, with wide support. We have two network level drivers in Pharo (PostgresV2 and recently P3) and it works well under GLORP. > >> On 6 May 2018, at 19:10, Todd Blanchard <tblanchard(a)mac.com> wrote: >> >> Just out of curiosity, why do you want an OODB? >> >> SQLite has a plethora of tools, powerful query capabilities, can be migrated with very little pain, and can act a bit like an OODB using GLORP. >> >> I have lost too many data sets to proprietary OODBs to ever trust one again. >> >>> On May 6, 2018, at 10:00 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Just out of curiosity, which object database is recommended for Pharo? >>> Something that is reliably up-to-date as Pharo changes. >>> >>> >>> Stephan Eggermont-3 wrote >>>> Sean P. DeNigris < >>> >>>> sean@ >>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> OT: It's ironic that Smalltalkers are often accused of NIH syndrome, but >>>>> the >>>>> first reaction of people from less "productive" languages/systems is to >>>>> rewrite a working Smalltalk app in their language of comfortâ¦ >>>> >>>> Indeed. And rewriting something that also uses an OODB is going to kill >>>> productivity even more. Iâve taken a look at what would be needed to >>>> support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it >>>> professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with >>>> changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year >>>> or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are >>>> no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation >>>> specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a >>>> lot >>>> of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on >>>> pharo last >>>> >>>> Stephan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Personal Programming onPharo

by Norbert Hartl

As you are not biased to understand what I was saying can you please define what âstabilityâ means to you? After all those years Iâm fed up with people using terms like âstabilityâ or âscabilityâ as if the were self-explaining. The same goes for âenterprise needsâ. They are not, they are defined within the scope if their requirements. I have more than 100 pharo images running and these are pretty stable. Why? Because pharo is stable enough and I am capable of doing the rest to make it right for my needs. On the other hand if I were into writing UI based tools I know there will be a lot of changes in the coming years. So nothing to expect regarding stability. If you work in an enterprise your definition of stability can be defined as static/non-moving stability. It just means you donât have to cope with everyday changes but the gap of your software to actual software gets bigger every day. And with every day it is more unlikely someone is brave enough to decide to move on and to catch up with the rest. etc. etc. Norbert > Am 06.05.2018 um 21:16 schrieb Todd Blanchard <tblanchard(a)mac.com>: > > OK, I have to push back at this. > > When Pharo forked I was excited because Squeak was such a fast moving lab experiment that you couldn't build anything and expect it to work in a year. > > Pharo was supposed to be the "business ready" fork leaving Squeak to be the crazy lab experiment. > > From https://pharo.org/about > > It says: > > Pharo's goal is to deliver a clean, innovative, free and open-source immersive environment. > > By providing a stable and small core system, excellent developing tools, and maintained releases, Pharo is an attractive platform to build and deploy mission critical applications. > > But you are telling me that Pharo is also a fast moving lab experiment that is too unstable for real work? > > I understand this is hard but is there a definitive roadmap and plan to reach to stability? > >> On May 6, 2018, at 4:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >> >> Can you elaborate on what you consider as a kernel? There are always things moving in the pharo world. The last years the virtual machine got some iterations and it is still not fully stable. For pharo it is hard to have it stable because we feel the need that a lot of the existing parts need to be replaced to be useful in these times. Furthermore pharo is also prototyping platform for programming language features. All of these are counter-stability measures. So if you need a stable kernel from native ground up to UI pharo wonât be that thing you are looking for the coming years (if at all). You always need to adopt to change so you need to define your required scope better in order to get an estimate. >> >> Norbert >> >>> Am 06.05.2018 um 11:31 schrieb Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no>: >>> >>> I'm working on a programing paradigm and IDE for the personal programmer who wants to control his or her IoT. The size of the target audience I have in mind is >100 million. I gave up Squeak long ago as a platform because they obsolete my code faster than I can write it. I have now frozen Squeak 3.10.2 and hope its runtime will survive until I find a better foundation. My hope is that Pharo has a stable kernel that I can build on. According to Stephan, this is not so. Is there any plan for creating a stable Pharo kernel that people can use for building software of lasting value for millions of non-expert users? >>> --Thanks, Trygve >>> >>>> On 05.05.2018 13:53, Stephan Eggermont wrote: >>>> Iâve taken a look at what would be needed to >>>> support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it >>>> professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with >>>> changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year >>>> or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are >>>> no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation >>>> specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a lot >>>> of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on >>>> pharo last >>>> >>>> Stephan >>> >>> -- >>> The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate to achieve a goal. >>> Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no >>> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ >>> N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info >>> Norway Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27 >

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Personal Programming onPharo

by horrido

I was thinking the same thing. Enterprises need to rely on a stable distribution over a long period of time. That's why many Linux distros have LTS versions. That's why VisualWorks is the enterprise standard. tblanchard wrote > OK, I have to push back at this. > > When Pharo forked I was excited because Squeak was such a fast moving lab > experiment that you couldn't build anything and expect it to work in a > year. > > Pharo was supposed to be the "business ready" fork leaving Squeak to be > the crazy lab experiment. > > From https://pharo.org/about > > It says: > > Pharo's goal is to deliver a clean, innovative, free and open-source > immersive environment. > > By providing a stable and small core system, excellent developing tools, > and maintained releases, Pharo is an attractive platform to build and > deploy mission critical applications. > > But you are telling me that Pharo is also a fast moving lab experiment > that is too unstable for real work? > > I understand this is hard but is there a definitive roadmap and plan to > reach to stability? > >> On May 6, 2018, at 4:00 AM, Norbert Hartl < > norbert@ > > wrote: >> >> Can you elaborate on what you consider as a kernel? There are always >> things moving in the pharo world. The last years the virtual machine got >> some iterations and it is still not fully stable. For pharo it is hard to >> have it stable because we feel the need that a lot of the existing parts >> need to be replaced to be useful in these times. Furthermore pharo is >> also prototyping platform for programming language features. All of these >> are counter-stability measures. So if you need a stable kernel from >> native ground up to UI pharo wonât be that thing you are looking for the >> coming years (if at all). You always need to adopt to change so you need >> to define your required scope better in order to get an estimate. >> >> Norbert >> >> Am 06.05.2018 um 11:31 schrieb Trygve Reenskaug < > trygver@.uio > <mailto: > trygver@.uio > >>: >> >>> I'm working on a programing paradigm and IDE for the personal programmer >>> who wants to control his or her IoT. The size of the target audience I >>> have in mind is >100 million. I gave up Squeak long ago as a platform >>> because they obsolete my code faster than I can write it. I have now >>> frozen Squeak 3.10.2 and hope its runtime will survive until I find a >>> better foundation. My hope is that Pharo has a stable kernel that I can >>> build on. According to Stephan, this is not so. Is there any plan for >>> creating a stable Pharo kernel that people can use for building software >>> of lasting value for millions of non-expert users? >>> --Thanks, Trygve >>> >>> On 05.05.2018 13:53, Stephan Eggermont wrote: >>>> Iâve taken a look at what would be needed to >>>> support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it >>>> professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with >>>> changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a >>>> year >>>> or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there >>>> are >>>> no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep >>>> implementation >>>> specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a >>>> lot >>>> of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on >>>> pharo last >>>> >>>> Stephan >>> >>> -- >>> The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate to >>> achieve a goal. >>> Trygve Reenskaug mailto: > trygver@.uio > <mailto:% > 20trygver@.uio > > >>> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ >>> <http://folk.uio.no/trygver/> >>> N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info <http://fulloo.info/> >>> Norway Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27 -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Personal Programming onPharo

by Todd Blanchard

OK, I have to push back at this. When Pharo forked I was excited because Squeak was such a fast moving lab experiment that you couldn't build anything and expect it to work in a year. Pharo was supposed to be the "business ready" fork leaving Squeak to be the crazy lab experiment. >From https://pharo.org/about It says: Pharo's goal is to deliver a clean, innovative, free and open-source immersive environment. By providing a stable and small core system, excellent developing tools, and maintained releases, Pharo is an attractive platform to build and deploy mission critical applications. But you are telling me that Pharo is also a fast moving lab experiment that is too unstable for real work? I understand this is hard but is there a definitive roadmap and plan to reach to stability? > On May 6, 2018, at 4:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Can you elaborate on what you consider as a kernel? There are always things moving in the pharo world. The last years the virtual machine got some iterations and it is still not fully stable. For pharo it is hard to have it stable because we feel the need that a lot of the existing parts need to be replaced to be useful in these times. Furthermore pharo is also prototyping platform for programming language features. All of these are counter-stability measures. So if you need a stable kernel from native ground up to UI pharo wonât be that thing you are looking for the coming years (if at all). You always need to adopt to change so you need to define your required scope better in order to get an estimate. > > Norbert > > Am 06.05.2018 um 11:31 schrieb Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no <mailto:trygver@ifi.uio.no>>: > >> I'm working on a programing paradigm and IDE for the personal programmer who wants to control his or her IoT. The size of the target audience I have in mind is >100 million. I gave up Squeak long ago as a platform because they obsolete my code faster than I can write it. I have now frozen Squeak 3.10.2 and hope its runtime will survive until I find a better foundation. My hope is that Pharo has a stable kernel that I can build on. According to Stephan, this is not so. Is there any plan for creating a stable Pharo kernel that people can use for building software of lasting value for millions of non-expert users? >> --Thanks, Trygve >> >> On 05.05.2018 13:53, Stephan Eggermont wrote: >>> Iâve taken a look at what would be needed to >>> support magma on pharo a few years ago. Chris always told us he uses it >>> professionally on squeak and has not enough capacity to keep up with >>> changes in pharo without having a customer/maintainer for it. Twice a year >>> or so someone asks about magma on pharo and takes a look. AFAIK there are >>> no real obstacles to a port, but magma uses a lot of deep implementation >>> specifics that will take an experienced smalltalker to deal with, and a lot >>> of mailing list archeology as pharo changed a lot since magma worked on >>> pharo last >>> >>> Stephan >> >> -- >> The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate to achieve a goal. >> Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no <mailto:%20trygver@ifi.uio.no> >> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ <http://folk.uio.no/trygver/> >> N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info <http://fulloo.info/> >> Norway Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Using secure websockets server side with Zinc

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

Le 06/05/2018 Ã 20:46, Francisco Ortiz PeÃ±aloza a Ã©critÂ : > Sorry for the OT but I interested in how you're using WebSockets and > Seaside.Â > > Can you share how are you mix them together? > Hi, We do it in this project: https://github.com/TelescopeSt/TelescopeCytoscape This project allow to create a model of visualization (nodes and their contents, layouts, interactions, and update mechanism) then to render it with the CytoscapeJs visualization framework. The Seaside part is really small. We just use Seaside to render an empty div and initialize a cytoscape visualization inside. We could probably do without Seaside but we did this project for a Seaside application. (And we use the existing callbacks mechanism) During the rendering we open a web socket and we generate the initial cytoscape visualization inside the empty div generated by Seaside. Then when the user interact with the visualization, it communicates the interactions via the web socket to the Pharo server and if it should impact the visualization, commands to do so are sent via the websocket to the client. In this project the main part for the websocket management are: - TLCytoscapeComponent : The Seaside component registering the visualization (https://github.com/TelescopeSt/TelescopeCytoscape/blob/development/src/Tele…) - TLCytoscapeWebSocketDelegate : The class managing the websocket server side (https://github.com/TelescopeSt/TelescopeCytoscape/blob/development/src/Tele…) - CYSFileLibrary>>cytoscapeTelescopeJs : The javascript managing the socket client side (https://github.com/TelescopeSt/TelescopeCytoscape/blob/development/src/Tele…) If you need more details just ask :) -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Using secure websockets server side with Zinc

by Francisco Ortiz PeÃ±aloza

Sorry for the OT but I interested in how you're using WebSockets and Seaside. Can you share how are you mix them together? On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:40 AM Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 02/05/2018 16:29, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > Hi Cyril, > > > > Thank you for the infos and the fast reply :) > > > You can run a ZnSecureServer with a specific certificate. See the class > comment. But, this is a bit experimental, you need a very specific > certificate and I have only seen it work on Linux. > > > > Good to know! > > > If you front you Seaside app with Nginx, I assume you are doing HTTPS -> > HTTP in Nginx. I would suggest you try doing WWS -> WS as well. This does > mean that connections are kept open of course (implicit in WebSockets). I > have not yet done this myself, but it should work theoretically. > > > > This is what I do now and it works fine. I just wanted to know if there > was an alternative to write it in the documentation of the project > (since it will be open source). > > > The thing is, you will find 100x more info on (correct) TLS/SSL setup on > Nginx, and app proxying is totally accepted today. > > > > Ok, so I'll probably just give an example with nginx in the documentation > :) > > > Please let us know how it goes ;-) > > > > Sven > > > > > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr > >

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Saving a Smalltalk Project

by Stephan Eggermont

Todd Blanchard <tblanchard(a)mac.com> wrote: > Just out of curiosity, why do you want an OODB? http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5602

May 6, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] [Seaside] [ANN] ChartJs for Seaside v1.0.0

by Francisco Ortiz PeÃ±aloza

Great work! Thanks for sharing. BTW demo link is giving me a bad gateway error (504) On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 6:38 AM Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Le 04/05/2018 Ã 22:06, Smalltalk a Ã©crit : > > Cyril, > > > > Thanks for sharing this. Very cool ! > > > > I'm using a very basic package to render charts with SVG (scalable > > vector graphics) build by my self. > > > > Now i think i will switch to ChartJs. I'll try to load it to Seaside for > > GemStone. > > Great! :) > > I never really used gemstone so there will be some troubles probably. If > you open issues describing them I can correct them when I'll have the time. > > > > > regards, > > bruno > > > > > > > > < > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai… > > > > Libre de virus. www.avast.com > > < > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai… > > > > > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > seaside mailing list > > seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr > > _______________________________________________ > seaside mailing list > seaside(a)lists.squeakfoundation.org > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside >

May 6, 2018