April 2018 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Benoit St-Jean

"You cannot take an alpha version and expect production quality." I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit. Can I at least expect to be able to save code in my local Monticello repository ? It bombs. I just reported a bug! Can I expect the Windows installer for Pharo Launcher to work on Windows?Â It doesn't : it crashes.Â Can I expect Pharo Launcher (not installed from the .exe installer) to work on Windows?Â It just doesn't. I get all kinds of error related to WindowsStore, bad UTF-8 encoding and other things... (see https://twitter.com/smalltalkdev/status/978973863332798464) Can I expect that when looking for implementors of a method things still work?Â I get duplicates (see attached file). Can I expect reading input from the console to work on Windows?Â It doesn't. Can I expect to be able to test my stuff on Windows?Â That's kinda hard when Windows is always 6 months to 1 year behind VM-wise. Can I expect to be able to contribute ?Â That is kinda sad but all the cool scripts out there are .sh files. I'm not whining about the effort people put into this project : I'm mostly whining about duplication of effort and code and *very poor* Windows support... Just spend 2 weeks working with Pharo on Windows.Â You can start with version 5.1 if you want and let me know how it goes...Â Brace yourself, I'm telling you, you're off for a wild & unpleasant ride. ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".Â (A. Einstein)

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 08:43, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > > I consider Pharo 7 as a great piece of kit but unusable for my current work. There are many new things to learn in there. When is too much too much? Also, simplifications are breaking things in unexpected ways (like the #atEnd thing). Phil, Nothing fundamental will break with #atEnd. What you are reading in pharo-dev is a constructive discussion that (for me at least) started with the desire to support one very special kind of stream (stdin in C terms), something 99.99% of Pharo users have never seen, used or heard of. Zn streams have worked well and as expected for Pharo versions going back to 3, that won't change. Sven

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Pavel Krivanek

Moreover, we are increasing the system modularity so more classes in the IDE does not mean that you need to have them all loaded. -- Pavel 2018-04-13 10:39 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > As a general note, I have to say that I find amusing how people are often > annoyed about the growing size of the image and the amount of classes. > We have an image that contains a full IDE which incorpores more and more > modern capabilities. And you want that to stay small and fewer classes? Iâm > sorry but you are missing the point. More tools (or same tools enhanced) > means more size and classes. > > Thenâ¦ why the fear about classes? This is OOP. Doing classes is what we > do. > I prefer a new class to, for example passing same information into a > dictionary. > I prefer a new class over a string. > I prefer a new class over a tuple. > > We now have slots instead symbols to express variables. I dream with even > more classes: Selector, Protocol (we already have it, but we need to use > it), etc., etc., etc. > I will always prefer a class that defines a concept than a non-reified > usage of generic classes. > > We need better ways to organise that information? YES! (For example I was > thinking browser by default should not show âtool packagesâ, to reduce the > amount of information). > > But I welcome more classes and less esoteric usages of existing ones, > always. > > cheers, > Esteban > > On 13 Apr 2018, at 10:30, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 13 Apr 2018, at 10:25, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > On 13 April 2018 at 13:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < > pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > >> Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I >> really don't know where we're heading. >> > > >> Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, >> DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, >> DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, >> DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, >> DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? >> > > This should have been cleaned up a while ago. Thanks for the bump. I'll > get to it. > However note, that half of those have not more than two methods, so are > not contributing much to the size of the Image. > > > I didnât know. Thanks :) > > > >> Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and >> what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. >> > > I guess you are looking for... > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/ > blob/master/Pharo7/ROADMAP.md > > > cheers -ben > > > > > >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 10:31, Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 13/04/2018 07:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote: > > Hi, > > I don't have time to answer to everything but I can give some details: > > - Nautilus will be removed when Calypso will be really stable (During > the Calypso development if calypso breaks, you need an other browser to > replace it) > - The old compiler will be removed as an external project > (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R…) > - I think it's planned to remove the EyeInspector > - Kommiter and Versionner will also be removed in next versions of Pharo > > "Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha > has 7612 classes." > > In general I do not like metrics in term of number of classes because I > prefer a system with 7500 classes of 50 lines of code than a system of > 6000 classes of 300 lines of codes. amen! > > "Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference > settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings." > > The number of settings is not a bad thing if it's well organized. The > current problem is not the number of settings, it's more their > organization. > > Have a nice day. :) > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

As a general note, I have to say that I find amusing how people are often annoyed about the growing size of the image and the amount of classes. We have an image that contains a full IDE which incorpores more and more modern capabilities. And you want that to stay small and fewer classes? Iâm sorry but you are missing the point. More tools (or same tools enhanced) means more size and classes. Thenâ¦ why the fear about classes? This is OOP. Doing classes is what we do. I prefer a new class to, for example passing same information into a dictionary. I prefer a new class over a string. I prefer a new class over a tuple. We now have slots instead symbols to express variables. I dream with even more classes: Selector, Protocol (we already have it, but we need to use it), etc., etc., etc. I will always prefer a class that defines a concept than a non-reified usage of generic classes. We need better ways to organise that information? YES! (For example I was thinking browser by default should not show âtool packagesâ, to reduce the amount of information). But I welcome more classes and less esoteric usages of existing ones, always. cheers, Esteban > On 13 Apr 2018, at 10:30, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> On 13 Apr 2018, at 10:25, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com <mailto:btc@openinworld.com>> wrote: >> >> On 13 April 2018 at 13:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> wrote: >> Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. >> >> Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? >> >> This should have been cleaned up a while ago. Thanks for the bump. I'll get to it. >> However note, that half of those have not more than two methods, so are not contributing much to the size of the Image. > > I didnât know. Thanks :) > >> >> Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. >> >> I guess you are looking for... >> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R… <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R…> >> >> >> cheers -ben >> >> >> >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

On 13/04/2018 07:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote: Hi, I don't have time to answer to everything but I can give some details: - Nautilus will be removed when Calypso will be really stable (During the Calypso development if calypso breaks, you need an other browser to replace it) - The old compiler will be removed as an external project (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R…) - I think it's planned to remove the EyeInspector - Kommiter and Versionner will also be removed in next versions of Pharo "Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes." In general I do not like metrics in term of number of classes because I prefer a system with 7500 classes of 50 lines of code than a system of 6000 classes of 300 lines of codes. "Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings." The number of settings is not a bad thing if it's well organized. The current problem is not the number of settings, it's more their organization. Have a nice day. :) -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 10:25, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > On 13 April 2018 at 13:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> wrote: > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. > > Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? > > This should have been cleaned up a while ago. Thanks for the bump. I'll get to it. > However note, that half of those have not more than two methods, so are not contributing much to the size of the Image. I didnât know. Thanks :) > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > > I guess you are looking for... > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R… <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R…> > > > cheers -ben > > >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, > On 13 Apr 2018, at 07:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: Where do we go now ? > Date: 13 April 2018 at 07:53:46 CEST > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > > > Hello guys, > > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. > > When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic. The promise of a new, clean & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people. And then... > > I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where we're heading. Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. > > Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) ? Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ? Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? Do we really need 2 inspectors (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ? Do we really need 2 workspaces (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. I could go on, and on, and onâ¦ Pharo 7.0 is a development version. Before is releases most duplicated things you mention here will be gone: - Nautilus - Compiler - EyeInspector Workspace could be gone but we need a fallback in case the other more potent tools fail. Schedulers are still necessary. > > Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 alpha has a 47.97 MB image. Can you see a trend? Pharo 5.1 didnât have : - GTTools - Iceberg - Epicea - and many others. > > Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port code. Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most of the time hidden in the comments of the soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). If you do not want we to remove classes, how do you want we to go âsmaller" and cleaner? > You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! Zodiac relies on Sockets, there is not duplication there. > You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? you got me here. but removing takes timeâ¦ you are free to contribute with fixes :) > > UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ? Athens? Something else? yes, I think Athens should not be part of the image but a loadable package. > > You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! again, you are mixing pearls and apples here. (and btw, there was a HUGE refactor of streams on P7) > So what's the plan? For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it because Nautilus will be deprecated? Or should I just don't care because a third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, let's add this one too!â ? The plan is continue improving slowly but steadyâ¦ things takes time. > Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks do? If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine! Then just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks you can load from a parcel! > > Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer. Did we include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later? Is Calypso just a proof of concept? Is it just an optional tool? What about all those delay schedulers? You should read this list with more attention. We told at least 10 times Nautilus is going to be removed. We told it in presentations. We told it in tech talks. I donât know how else we could tell it. Maybe a HUGE banner in our site? âHEY YOU, READER: NAUTILUS WILL BE REMOVED!" > "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work". Should I help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the corresponding framework in Pharo? if there is a corresponding framework yes. Problem is that people tends to believe a package from squeaksource not loading in P7 is our fault and not the responsibility of the package maintainer (or the one wanting to use it). > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. Perhaps a little bit of reading? We told it, several times. You cannot take an alpha version and expect production quality. And you cannot expect that things happens magically: engineering takes a lot of time and efforts and we do our best with the resources we have as a community. This is an open source project. With perks and no so muchâ¦ but the way to change things is contributing. And just to be clear: The goal of Pharo was never to be SMALL. The goal is to do a Smalltalk that is at the same time: - Clean (That DOES NOT MEANS SMALL!) - Modern - Fitting for business Iâm sorry for counter-rant your rant, but while there are somethings were you are right, I find the tone of your commentary not very constructive. cheers! Esteban > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Ben Coman

On 13 April 2018 at 13:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I > really don't know where we're heading. > > Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, > DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, > DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? > This should have been cleaned up a while ago. Thanks for the bump. I'll get to it. However note, that half of those have not more than two methods, so are not contributing much to the size of the Image. > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's > the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > I guess you are looking for... https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R… cheers -ben

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by phil＠highoctane.be

It is true that there are many things in there. New tools have to be finished before the old ones can be removed (there was a time where refactorings were not in Calypso). But for a real project, one is settling for a version and a toolset. I am not really keen to migrate Pharo projects from one version to another and some deprecations seems rather gratuitous sometimes. The world also moves forward and it shows in the image. I think that Iceberg has swallowed a lot of bandwidth and as a result other elements are in need of more love. Pharo7 is unreleased yet. Some say something is great by version 10. 3 versions to go. I consider Pharo 7 as a great piece of kit but unusable for my current work. There are many new things to learn in there. When is too much too much? Also, simplifications are breaking things in unexpected ways (like the #atEnd thing). I am glad 6.1 gets backports and new releases for sure. Phil On Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 07:53 Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > Hello guys, > > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I > really don't know where we're heading. > > When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major > clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic. The promise of a new, clean > & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people. And then... > > I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where > we're heading. Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I > don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new > tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. > > Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) > ? Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really > need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ? Do we really need 8 delay > schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, > DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, > DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? Do we really need 2 inspectors > (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ? Do we really need 2 workspaces > (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. I could go > on, and on, and on... > > Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha > has 7612 classes. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference > settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 > alpha has a 47.97 MB image. Can you see a trend? > > Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port > code. Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots > more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most > of the time hidden in the comments of the > soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). > > You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket > classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both > "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with > "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! > > You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old > dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? > > UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ? Athens? Something else? > > You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream > classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both > "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the > old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! > > So what's the plan? For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus > Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it > because Nautilus will be deprecated? Or should I just don't care because a > third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, > let's add this one too!" ? > > Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an > external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks > do? If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine! Then > just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it > and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the > image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks > you can load from a parcel! > > Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system > browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer. Did we > include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later? Is Calypso just a proof of > concept? Is it just an optional tool? What about all those delay > schedulers? > > "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work". Should I > help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the > corresponding framework in Pharo? > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's > the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) >

April 13, 2018