April 2018 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 14:33, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I find NPM as obscure as Pharo, honestly, and VA Smalltalk is worse (wth does abt or sst stand for?). Grunt, Gulp, etc., how do the names relate to what they do? yesâ¦ but we actually have a problem there. I would like to be able to add âtags" to tools, to be able to say: Calypso -> a class browser -> some more info etc. Esteban > > Electron is as obscure as Phobos (although a phobia with web pages turned into desktop apps may be appropriate). > > Andrew > > On Fri, 2018-04-13 at 14:18 +0200, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: >> On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com <mailto:raoknz@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of >>> very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, >>> &c &c to, well, whatever they are. I presume there is >>> somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. >>> Can some kind soul tell me where it is? >>> >> >> Until we have mature package manager (similar to Cargo or npm), you have to use google. >> On the bright side, with the move to git(hub), people are much more likely to actually describe what their project does, and maybe even a bit of documentation. This was almost non-existent with SmalltalkHub. >> >> Peter

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Andrew Glynn

I find NPM as obscure as Pharo, honestly, and VA Smalltalk is worse (wth does abt or sst stand for?). Â Grunt, Gulp, etc., how do the names relate to what they do? Â Electron is as obscure as Phobos (although a phobia with web pages turned into desktop apps may be appropriate). AndrewOn Fri, 2018-04-13 at 14:18 +0200, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: > On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of > > very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, > > &c &c to, well, whatever they are.Â I presume there is > > somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. > > Can some kind soul tell me where it is? > > > Until we have mature package manager (similar to Cargo or npm), you > have to use google. > On the bright side, with the move to git(hub), people are much more > likely to actually describe what their project does, and maybe even a > bit of documentation. This was almost non-existent with SmalltalkHub. > > Peter

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 14:23, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > Unfortunately there probably isn't one list. > Its hard to unlearn what is accumulated > and easy to take for granted what we know is obvious to everyone. > Maybe we need a "Glossary" at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/tree/master/wiki <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/tree/master/wiki> > where newcomers can add items for others to fill in. this is part a debate Stef and I have since years. I think we need to put generic names to our tools: - System browser - Source Version Control - etc. while Stef supports fantasy names: - Calypso - Iceberg - etc. you know who won this debate ;) but at least I would like to add an option for special menu to show what is suck tool. cheers, Esteban > > cheers -ben > > On 13 April 2018 at 20:05, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com <mailto:raoknz@gmail.com>> wrote: > There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of > very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, > &c &c to, well, whatever they are. I presume there is > somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. > Can some kind soul tell me where it is? > > > On 13 April 2018 at 23:01, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> wrote: > > > > On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <j.b.shirk(a)gmail.com <mailto:j.b.shirk@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> > >> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard. > >> > >> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering library namespaces. > >> > > The package names that just use the âproject nameâ can be problematicâ¦ too many words. e.g. âHiedraâ? No idea. (there are ideas of how to improve, I will not list them here as this should > not turn into discussion about this issue). > > The way we present packages (and their granularity) is not ârightâ. Namespaces are a problem in additionâ¦ > > So yes: we have a lot of thing to improve! > . > >> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell. > >> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found. > >> :( > > > > You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them. > > > > Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ... > > > > I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. Alternative subsystems help a lot. > > It should be clear that what we have is what we managed to do, not what we dreamed aboutâ¦ I, too, would like to have this clean, nice, small, amazing systemâ¦ but it is not always easy. > > There is a lot we can (and will!) improve! > > Marcus > > > >

April 13, 2018

[ANN] Pharo Sprint Apr 20

by Marcus Denker

Pharo Sprint Apr 20 https://association.pharo.org/event-2789579 We will organize a Pharo sprint / Moose dojo Apr 20 , starting at 10:00am. (Local Time Paris). Goals of this sprint: â¢ Pharo 7 issues Remote Sprint Remotely, you can join us on Discord. During the sprint, we synchronize local and remote Pharo sprinters: Known Local Sprint meetings Lille/France: It will be at the Inria Lille, Building B, third floor (RMoD offices). As the building is not open to the public, please contact us before if you plan to come

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Richard O'Keefe

I was not talking about additional subsystems *for* Pharo, but subsystems already *in* Pharo. For example, when I hover the mouse over "Epicea" in the leftmost browser panel, there is a pop-up that explains what is otherwise a rather opaque word. But when I hover the mouse over "Fuel", nothing happens. "Grease" => pop-up, "Growl", no. Actually there are three possibilities. The third is that there's no pop-up but if you click, there is a package comment. On 14 April 2018 at 00:18, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of >> very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, >> &c &c to, well, whatever they are. I presume there is >> somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. >> Can some kind soul tell me where it is? >> > > Until we have mature package manager (similar to Cargo or npm), you have > to use google. > On the bright side, with the move to git(hub), people are much more likely > to actually describe what their project does, and maybe even a bit of > documentation. This was almost non-existent with SmalltalkHub. > > Peter >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban A. Maringolo

On 13/04/2018 09:18, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: > On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com > <mailto:raoknz@gmail.com>> wrote: > > There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of > very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, > &c &c to, well, whatever they are.Â I presume there is > somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. > Can some kind soul tell me where it is? > Until we have mature package manager (similar to Cargo or npm), you have > to use google. Yes, there needs to be a package tool that enables discoverability, Catalog is not enough. > On the bright side, with the move to git(hub), people are much more > likely to actually describe what their project does, and maybe even a > bit of documentation. This was almost non-existent with SmalltalkHub. True, and it's also giving visibility to Pharo and Smalltalk as active technologies. Regards, -- Esteban A. Maringolo

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Denis Kudriashov

2018-04-13 13:01 GMT+02:00 Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr>: > > > > On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <j.b.shirk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that > distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say > Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard. > >> > >> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the > always expanding bewildering library namespaces. > >> > > The package names that just use the âproject nameâ can be problematicâ¦ too > many words. e.g. âHiedraâ? No idea. (there are ideas of how to improve, I > will not list them here as this should > not turn into discussion about this issue). > > At some point we should force rule "All packages have comments". And indication with icon like we do for classes. With Calypso the package comment is always available. So it would be easy to find description. The way we present packages (and their granularity) is not ârightâ. > Namespaces are a problem in additionâ¦ > > So yes: we have a lot of thing to improve! > . > >> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous > Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with > creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is > becoming like Java or PHP hell. > >> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is > nowhere to be found. > >> :( > > > > You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to > reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a > poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them. > > > > Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ... > > > > I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than > 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop > in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. > Alternative subsystems help a lot. > > It should be clear that what we have is what we managed to do, not what we > dreamed aboutâ¦ I, too, would like to have this clean, nice, small, amazing > systemâ¦ but it is not always easy. > > There is a lot we can (and will!) improve! > > Marcus > > >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban A. Maringolo

On 13/04/2018 09:05, Richard O'Keefe wrote: > There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of > very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, > &c &c to, well, whatever they are.Â I presume there is > somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. > Can some kind soul tell me where it is? I think it's not a matter of brain, and unless I also have a bear brain I find it hard to know what each thing means, in particular when there is a "flagship" framework (like Seaside) and the related extensions/libraries are called something different instead of, it is harder when the names are completely unrelated to the domain. I've been thinking of collecting the package names, what they do, an which class prefixes they use. But never had the willingness to actually do it, maybe now is a good moment. Regards, -- Esteban.

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Ben Coman

Unfortunately there probably isn't one list. Its hard to unlearn what is accumulated and easy to take for granted what we know is obvious to everyone. Maybe we need a "Glossary" at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/tree/master/wiki where newcomers can add items for others to fill in. cheers -ben On 13 April 2018 at 20:05, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of > very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, > &c &c to, well, whatever they are. I presume there is > somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. > Can some kind soul tell me where it is? > > > On 13 April 2018 at 23:01, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> >> >> > On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:40, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <j.b.shirk(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that >> distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say >> Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard. >> >> >> >> But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the >> always expanding bewildering library namespaces. >> >> >> >> The package names that just use the âproject nameâ can be problematicâ¦ >> too many words. e.g. âHiedraâ? No idea. (there are ideas of how to improve, >> I will not list them here as this should >> not turn into discussion about this issue). >> >> The way we present packages (and their granularity) is not ârightâ. >> Namespaces are a problem in additionâ¦ >> >> So yes: we have a lot of thing to improve! >> . >> >> GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous >> Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with >> creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is >> becoming like Java or PHP hell. >> >> Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity >> is nowhere to be found. >> >> :( >> > >> > You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to >> reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a >> poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them. >> > >> > Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ... >> > >> > I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than >> 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop >> in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. >> Alternative subsystems help a lot. >> >> It should be clear that what we have is what we managed to do, not what >> we dreamed aboutâ¦ I, too, would like to have this clean, nice, small, >> amazing systemâ¦ but it is not always easy. >> >> There is a lot we can (and will!) improve! >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > There are a lot of subsystems in Pharo, and being a bear of > very little brain, I have a hard time relating Zinc, Calypso, > &c &c to, well, whatever they are. I presume there is > somewhere a list of topic/name/PFX triples for guidance. > Can some kind soul tell me where it is? > Until we have mature package manager (similar to Cargo or npm), you have to use google. On the bright side, with the move to git(hub), people are much more likely to actually describe what their project does, and maybe even a bit of documentation. This was almost non-existent with SmalltalkHub. Peter

April 13, 2018