August 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] The Spec UI Framework. first translation to korean finish.

by peter yoo

I do not know if it is possible or impossible. because: 1. failed to compile the SPEC UI Framework. Xetex would have caught the error, but I do not know about luatex. 2. I am using texlive 2017 with gentoo linux. 3. In Korea, when making a book, in most cases it is using an oblivior that has developed a memoir. 4. In most cases, TeX is used to specify the font in consideration of the CJK environment. If you set some basics, I will join you in the future. However, I do not know smacc, pillar, etc.

Aug. 28, 2017

This sentence made my day [WAS] Re: Dark Mode

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 6:50 PM, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote: > I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes > are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very > uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a > dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always > true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text > fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately > switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons > on the windows. > > Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had > cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my > optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my > adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate. > > Sometimes is hard to explain to someone outside the community why Smalltalkers love they language so much. I think above paragraph says it all. It made my day. I wish I can follow that path! hahaha. > Just my 2p worth > > Peter Kenny > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf > Of stephan > Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46 > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode > > On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference > > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. > > The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better > with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make > Pharo6 theme dark default > > Stephan > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Aug. 28, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by PBKResearch

Dimitris Update â there is a sort of bug in the screenshot, which I have caused. I opened the page with my usual light theme, then changed themes. This updated the colour of the background, but not the text in the foreground. If I open the same playground display with the dark theme, the text is white and shows up OK. But I still donât like it. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of PBKResearch Sent: 27 August 2017 23:48 To: 'Any question about pharo is welcome' <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode Dimitris Screenshot attached. Look particularly at the text in the right-hand page of the playground. Also the control buttons of the playground window â the buttons go black when the window gets focus. I opened the âAboutâ window so you can see which version I have â not yet Pharo 6.1, but not very out of date. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Dimitris Chloupis Sent: 27 August 2017 23:10 To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for making it easier for you. Quite an irony , would not agree ? If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking about. Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to share a screenshot ? On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote: I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons on the windows. Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate. Just my 2p worth Peter Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> ] On Behalf Of stephan Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46 To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make Pharo6 theme dark default Stephan

Aug. 27, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by PBKResearch

Dimitris Screenshot attached. Look particularly at the text in the right-hand page of the playground. Also the control buttons of the playground window â the buttons go black when the window gets focus. I opened the âAboutâ window so you can see which version I have â not yet Pharo 6.1, but not very out of date. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Dimitris Chloupis Sent: 27 August 2017 23:10 To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for making it easier for you. Quite an irony , would not agree ? If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking about. Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to share a screenshot ? On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote: I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons on the windows. Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate. Just my 2p worth Peter Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> ] On Behalf Of stephan Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46 To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make Pharo6 theme dark default Stephan

Aug. 27, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by Dimitris Chloupis

Also most don't know this but light themes of Pharo were in part hard coded. Esteban in order to create the dark theme which is based on the most popular dark theme ( if my memory serves correctly) , Darcula , he had to remove all this nasty code. He essentially made it possible for Pharo to have themes without worrying about hard coded colors. So if you ever want to make the light theme even lighter you have the dark theme to thank for making it easier for you. Quite an irony , would not agree ? If the doctors say your eye sight is great , he knows what he is talking about. Black foreground against dark grey background sound like a bug. Care to share a screenshot ? On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 at 00:51, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote: > I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes > are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very > uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a > dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always > true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text > fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately > switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons > on the windows. > > Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had > cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my > optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my > adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate. > > Just my 2p worth > > Peter Kenny > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf > Of stephan > Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46 > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode > > On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference > > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. > > The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better > with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make > Pharo6 theme dark default > > Stephan > > > >

Aug. 27, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by PBKResearch

I agree with Dimitris - it is all a matter of preference - not all eyes are the same. For myself, I find the default dark theme in Pharo very uncomfortable. On my system, some elements have a black foreground on a dark grey background, which is almost impossible to see. This is always true of the maximise/minimise/close buttons, but sometimes also of text fields in a playground. Whenever I download a new image, I immediately switch to the Watery theme, with light background and nice coloured buttons on the windows. Of course, my eyes may not be typical. I am now aged 84, and I have had cataract operations on both eyes. My sight is actually quite good - my optometrist confirms that I am legal to drive without spectacles - but my adverse reaction to dark mode is strong and immediate. Just my 2p worth Peter Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of stephan Sent: 27 August 2017 21:46 To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference > is also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make Pharo6 theme dark default Stephan

Aug. 27, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by Dimitris Chloupis

no offence my friend, even when i did not understand the joke. I am completely respectful of the people who find it hard to work with a dark theme and I always stated that Pharo should have both, ideally ever more themes. Of course we don't have the size of the community to do that. Ideally Pharo could offer the choice at welcome screen but to be fair to devs its super easy to change it, a couple of clicks away. Light theme definitely wont go anywhere , which one is more popular is not really my point and frankly it does not matter both of them have quite a large following and its great we have them both in image. If we want people to love Pharo then we have to accept that each person has it own preferences and sometime its for good reason like eye strain. I am definitely a big defender of choice , after all my theme has that as a feature ;) I suspect dark monitor may have been an energy issue. Another issue is that back then monitors were CRT and there was actual radiation that affected the eye. For example my monitor was making my eyes seeing things pink for a while till my eye rested. It may have been the green color. I remember my glasses even came with layers specialised to reflect some of the radiation and it actually helped a bit. On the other hand bright themes did emerge at the time of window 3.1 and of course we still had CRT monitors so you may be correct and it was mainly a energy consumption issue. I simply dont know, life tends to be appear simple , but alas its far from it :D On Mon, Aug 28, 2017 at 12:24 AM Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Dimitris, > > On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 08:37:56PM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > > > I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to > > look cool, but no one consumes. :-) > > I actually meant this in jest, which is why it has the smiley face > afterwords. > > I don't know which is more popular, light or dark themes, I'm glad that > Pharo makes it easy to automatically change to which ever one prefers - > which was what the code following this sentence was demonstrating. > > > > You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3 > decades > > now. Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes > may be > > popular but white are definitely not. The web is the last fort of bright > > themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes to > matters of > > UI. > > > > My first computer was black background with green fonts, black back in > 80 and > > 90s was pretty much the norm. There was no white or bright themes back > then. It > > was not because the monitors had any issues with displaying white. > > I had my terminals set to black background with green fonts up to last > year since that is what I was used to from my Dick Smith System 80 > (TRS-80 clone). :-) > > Going slightly off topic: I suspect terminals used a dark theme by > default because a light theme would burn out the CRT. If I remember > correctly, DEC VT-220's had a light theme (which I didn't use). > > > > It was actually the web that made white a thing. Probably inexperienced > web > > coders (there were no web devs back then ) thought it made sense > transitioning > > from paper. Problem is that paper , reflects light, does not emit it. > > > > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is > also a > > matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. Some eyes have hard time > > distinguishing elements in dark environments , others have hard time > > distinguishing elements in bright environments but excel at dark > environments. > > I belong to the second case as such white themes for me are pretty much > > unacceptable for any content I have to read for a long time. > > > > My monitor as we speak is set to 1/16th of its brightness which is the > minimum > > setting. During the day that sun goes in my room it goes up to 3/16 > maximum. > > Above that I am forced to simply reduce the light in the room. > > > > Trying to use Moose especially that was even brighter it was even harder > for me > > to the point I gave up and never used it since then. > > > > So yes there are many of us who were raised with dark themes, still use > dark > > themes , will continue to use dark themes and criticise any app that > does not > > support them. For me the Dark theme has been the most important > improvement of > > Pharo and I am not exaggerating one tiny bit. > > I largely agree with what you've said. My eyes have just deteriorated > in the opposite direction - I can't read with a dark theme (my terminals > are now dark text on a white background). > > My apologies for any offence, it wasn't intended. > > > Cheers, > Alistair > > >

Aug. 27, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by Alistair Grant

Hi Dimitris, On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 08:37:56PM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > I completely agree - dark mode is great for content that you want to > look cool, but no one consumes. :-) I actually meant this in jest, which is why it has the smiley face afterwords. I don't know which is more popular, light or dark themes, I'm glad that Pharo makes it easy to automatically change to which ever one prefers - which was what the code following this sentence was demonstrating. > You assume wrong cause dark themes have been dominating GUIs for over 3 decades > now. Pharo was the rare exception of using a white theme. Light themes may be > popular but white are definitely not. The web is the last fort of bright > themes, but the web was and still is eons behind when it comes to matters of > UI. > > My first computer was black background with green fonts, black back in 80 and > 90s was pretty much the norm. There was no white or bright themes back then. It > was not because the monitors had any issues with displaying white. I had my terminals set to black background with green fonts up to last year since that is what I was used to from my Dick Smith System 80 (TRS-80 clone). :-) Going slightly off topic: I suspect terminals used a dark theme by default because a light theme would burn out the CRT. If I remember correctly, DEC VT-220's had a light theme (which I didn't use). > It was actually the web that made white a thing. Probably inexperienced web > coders (there were no web devs back then ) thought it made sense transitioning > from paper. Problem is that paper , reflects light, does not emit it. > > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is also a > matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. Some eyes have hard time > distinguishing elements in dark environments , others have hard time > distinguishing elements in bright environments but excel at dark environments. > I belong to the second case as such white themes for me are pretty much > unacceptable for any content I have to read for a long time. > > My monitor as we speak is set to 1/16th of its brightness which is the minimum > setting. During the day that sun goes in my room it goes up to 3/16 maximum. > Above that I am forced to simply reduce the light in the room. > > Trying to use Moose especially that was even brighter it was even harder for me > to the point I gave up and never used it since then. > > So yes there are many of us who were raised with dark themes, still use dark > themes , will continue to use dark themes and criticise any app that does not > support them. For me the Dark theme has been the most important improvement of > Pharo and I am not exaggerating one tiny bit. I largely agree with what you've said. My eyes have just deteriorated in the opposite direction - I can't read with a dark theme (my terminals are now dark text on a white background). My apologies for any offence, it wasn't intended. Cheers, Alistair

Aug. 27, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by Dimitris Chloupis

what research institute reached that conclusion the same institute that claims that Pharo and Git cannot mix ? Please say to your institute to do a simple search on google search and put two words "code editor" and then click the "images" section and then say hello to reality. In the first 40 most popular results only 2 use a light theme. The rest of results is 60/40 dark/light. We agree one things though, its definitely sufficiently clear which one is the most popular. On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 11:47 PM stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is > > also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. > > The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better > with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make > Pharo6 theme dark default > > Stephan > > >

Aug. 27, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Dark Mode

by stephan

On 27-08-17 22:37, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > White or dark is a matter of preference. But the matter of preference is > also a matter of biology . Not all eyes are same. The research is pretty clear: a large majority of developers does better with light themes. I have been sufficiently clear on the choice to make Pharo6 theme dark default Stephan

Aug. 27, 2017