February 2017 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by Hilaire

Le 03/02/2017 Ã 17:12, Tudor Girba a Ã©crit : > Unfortunately, your message sounded like an angry complaint and this often has the tendency to stifle collaboration. As I am sure this was not your intention, letâs try to take that energy and transform it into something positive that can lead to action. > > Concretely: You complained about the text in the tooltips. I understand that you do not have time to fix the code, but here is what you can easily do: propose the concrete pieces of text that would work for you and we can take it from there. > > What do you say? I say we have an important misunderstanding, it would have been better you re-read my previous post than trying to interpret my intention. The only way to respond to you is to ask you to explain me, if you know, what are the differences between 'over' and 'through' buttons in the debugger. Then I may be able to word tooltips for these two buttons, but you will have already word it in your explanation I guess. Ok we are just making round circle here ;) I guess a UI quality team could see that sort of tiny itches and ask to the community, then fix it. Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by Hilaire

UI quality team could be fun. Here are some ideas how it could be organised: - at least 3/5/7 persons looking at issues and reporting it. Why three? Easier to decide and UI may for some part be very opinionated These persons could discuss how to fix it, if no consensus, the team could ask to the whole community @devel. - should the team discuss on a dedicated mailing list? May be to avoid too much noise on @devel... - the team will look mostly at non blocking bugs, ones in the sphere of "First impression count", so it can be clarity of the UI (message, tips, color, etc) or some annoying bugs regarding usability - the team should be able to fix itself most of these issues. How does it sound? Hilaire Le 03/02/2017 Ã 12:25, Serge Stinckwich a Ã©crit : > I like the idea of a UI quality team and more dedicated teams should > be built maybe on documentation, CI, etc ... > I guess for an UI quality team, the first step is to propose a process > on how to assess the quality of a release. -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] method names - grey or black

by Henrik Nergaard

MethodWidget>>#methodWrapper: is the method that styles the text entries of the method list in Nautilus. Best regards, Henrik Fra: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] PÃ¥ vegne av sheridan(a)sheridan-mahoney.com Sendt: 03 February 2017 17:45 Til: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Emne: [Pharo-users] method names - grey or black Hi there, While looking at the String class methods, I noticed that some methods are in grey, and the protocol pane indicates that the method belongs to a different package (I think). How is this implemented? I'm curious how the System browser knows how to display the methods this way... Many thanks, Sheridan

Feb. 3, 2017

method names - grey or black

by sheridan＠sheridan-mahoney.com

Hi there, While looking at the String class methods, I noticed that some methods are in grey, and the protocol pane indicates that the method belongs to a different package (I think). How is this implemented? I'm curious how the System browser knows how to display the methods this way... Many thanks, Sheridan

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by Tudor Girba

Hi Hilaire, Thanks for caring about the UI. Unfortunately, your message sounded like an angry complaint and this often has the tendency to stifle collaboration. As I am sure this was not your intention, letâs try to take that energy and transform it into something positive that can lead to action. Concretely: You complained about the text in the tooltips. I understand that you do not have time to fix the code, but here is what you can easily do: propose the concrete pieces of text that would work for you and we can take it from there. What do you say? Cheers, Doru > On Feb 3, 2017, at 3:38 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:54 PM, denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> >>> On 3 Feb 2017, at 09:21, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: >>> >>> A UI quality team review would be needed before each Pharo release, I >>> mean with a real constraint to postpone release until a good enough >>> quality is reached! > > Its always a question of resources and priorities. > > For example, is the tooltip text more important than... > 17240 Spur - when saving an image, it never shrinks > 18638 Image is growing in size (unnecessary instances of UndoRedoRecords) > 19606 Switch SSL Plugin Code for macOS to openssl > 19645 Enabling search triggers error in the FastTable renderer for Glamour > 18654 Setting are not being loaded > 18668 Computer UUID does not change when image is moved to another machine > > Maybe yes from your perspective, passion and needs. > Maybe you don't feel you have time, expertise or passion to work on > those listed issues yourself. > But others may consider it more important for themselves to work on > the listed issues, > and that is what they work on with their limited time. > But since the Release can't be dragged out forever, > a cut must be made and perhaps the polish of the UI suffers. > > Now its often the case that the person who clearly sees the issues, > and is driven to find them, is best placed to solve them. If you are > willing to volunteer some effort there, I think that would be a great > thing. I don't want to drive it, but I would certainly be willing to > give close support to quickly review your slices and collaborate on > anything gnarly. > > cheers -ben > >> >>> In that context I can help. >>> >>> There are many place where tiny efforts could make the UI so much better >>> for newcomers. >>> >>> For example when I saw the debugger tooltips, there are just helpless, >>> their contents are the same as the button label, not acceptable!!! >>> >>> I can't understand the difference between 'over' and 'through'. I guess >>> other may think I don't understand the difference because I am an idiot, >>> but I guess there are a lot of idiots out there, and these are the ones >>> we want to come and *to stay* with Pharo! >>> >>> So any wish to *really* improve the UI quality, or just words? >>> >> >> Yes, words is the problem: it is *so* easy to know what others have to do. >> Trivial. *Doing* is hardâ¦ maybe you should be in charge of reviewing >> all changes for pharo for one month? >> > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "No matter how many recipes we know, we still value a chef."

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by Ben Coman

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 4:54 PM, denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > > On 3 Feb 2017, at 09:21, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > > > > A UI quality team review would be needed before each Pharo release, I > > mean with a real constraint to postpone release until a good enough > > quality is reached! Its always a question of resources and priorities. For example, is the tooltip text more important than... 17240 Spur - when saving an image, it never shrinks 18638 Image is growing in size (unnecessary instances of UndoRedoRecords) 19606 Switch SSL Plugin Code for macOS to openssl 19645 Enabling search triggers error in the FastTable renderer for Glamour 18654 Setting are not being loaded 18668 Computer UUID does not change when image is moved to another machine Maybe yes from your perspective, passion and needs. Maybe you don't feel you have time, expertise or passion to work on those listed issues yourself. But others may consider it more important for themselves to work on the listed issues, and that is what they work on with their limited time. But since the Release can't be dragged out forever, a cut must be made and perhaps the polish of the UI suffers. Now its often the case that the person who clearly sees the issues, and is driven to find them, is best placed to solve them. If you are willing to volunteer some effort there, I think that would be a great thing. I don't want to drive it, but I would certainly be willing to give close support to quickly review your slices and collaborate on anything gnarly. cheers -ben > > > In that context I can help. > > > > There are many place where tiny efforts could make the UI so much better > > for newcomers. > > > > For example when I saw the debugger tooltips, there are just helpless, > > their contents are the same as the button label, not acceptable!!! > > > > I can't understand the difference between 'over' and 'through'. I guess > > other may think I don't understand the difference because I am an idiot, > > but I guess there are a lot of idiots out there, and these are the ones > > we want to come and *to stay* with Pharo! > > > > So any wish to *really* improve the UI quality, or just words? > > > > Yes, words is the problem: it is *so* easy to know what others have to do. > Trivial. *Doing* is hardâ¦ maybe you should be in charge of reviewing > all changes for pharo for one month? >

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by denker

> > Complaining on the list about the overall Pharo quality. Oh I appear to > be the bad guy, I should take responsibility, ok may be during my bed > time then. > > If you read carefully I proposed to help in my previous, so no need to > reply with this trivial "show me the code". If there is a UI quality > team, I want and I can help a bit, but my plates are already mostly > full. But if Pharo thinks quality is good enough then ok, I will shut up. > No, what I say is 1) Even the most trivial thing only gets done because someone does it. (one could think that there is some smallness and obviousness where things just âdo themselvesââ¦ I mean, that problem X is so obvious and trivial! Nope. Someone has to do it. Physically do that instead of something else. 2) Because something is not done does not mean that it was rejected (or people think that what we have is perfect). The problem is that there is just nobody whose fault this isâ¦ there is just nobody who did the obvious, because there is just nobody who did it. No bad intention, no judging. It just needs to be done. Teams can be nice to make it more fun, to have more drive. Marcus

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by Serge Stinckwich

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > Yes, my words as yours are cheap, but life not: Hi Hilaire, > - 6:30am, wake up, speedy breakfast, heading to school > > - all days: teaching kid, getting grads, metting other teachers, oh > using DrGeo during class, it is cool, it is super stable, hopefully I > kept it on Pharo 3 to avoid undetected incompatibility issues I faced > otherwise. Wants to use Phratch, but the UI quality not good enough yet, > need a few fixing. > > - afternoon and late afternoon: teacher work, coding/consulting/training > ICT for IT department > > Some fun with Phratch bugs fixing. I want to remove all this UI bugs > hanging around before producing video courses for teachers. > Oh, what these tools are about, there are no tips (not good for teacher > or kids!). Oh using wrong method to activate tooltip, API changes, why > two methods now, I don't understand the logic, okay got the tips to show > up, oh they look like shit (not pro). Time for dinner. > > Later on the evening: try to figure out this tooltips why there are so > awfull, wasting time again on that. Why is it so ugly. I will not > release DrGeo looking like that, why is it happening in pharo. Getting > upset. And then so on with other problems > > Complaining on the list about the overall Pharo quality. Oh I appear to > be the bad guy, I should take responsibility, ok may be during my bed > time then. What you describe looks very similar to my experience. I have lectures at the university (15h nowadays), research papers to wrote, students to supervise on some Pharo projects, projects based on Pharo to push and sometimes some annoying bugs related to UI. Spend sometime to try to fix this problems but I have to stop at one point because this is my main activity ... I guess we are all suffering from the same experience and the only solutions maybe is to add or fix some issues on the bug tracker. But if you try to fix some bugs, you realize that is not an easy task, etc ... Like Markus say during his talk last ESUG, even doing a small step is already great. > If you read carefully I proposed to help in my previous, so no need to > reply with this trivial "show me the code". If there is a UI quality > team, I want and I can help a bit, but my plates are already mostly > full. But if Pharo thinks quality is good enough then ok, I will shut up. I prefer people complaining, than people talking endlessly ;-) I like the idea of a UI quality team and more dedicated teams should be built maybe on documentation, CI, etc ... I guess for an UI quality team, the first step is to propose a process on how to assess the quality of a release. Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by Hilaire

Yes, my words as yours are cheap, but life not: - 6:30am, wake up, speedy breakfast, heading to school - all days: teaching kid, getting grads, metting other teachers, oh using DrGeo during class, it is cool, it is super stable, hopefully I kept it on Pharo 3 to avoid undetected incompatibility issues I faced otherwise. Wants to use Phratch, but the UI quality not good enough yet, need a few fixing. - afternoon and late afternoon: teacher work, coding/consulting/training ICT for IT department Some fun with Phratch bugs fixing. I want to remove all this UI bugs hanging around before producing video courses for teachers. Oh, what these tools are about, there are no tips (not good for teacher or kids!). Oh using wrong method to activate tooltip, API changes, why two methods now, I don't understand the logic, okay got the tips to show up, oh they look like shit (not pro). Time for dinner. Later on the evening: try to figure out this tooltips why there are so awfull, wasting time again on that. Why is it so ugly. I will not release DrGeo looking like that, why is it happening in pharo. Getting upset. And then so on with other problems Complaining on the list about the overall Pharo quality. Oh I appear to be the bad guy, I should take responsibility, ok may be during my bed time then. If you read carefully I proposed to help in my previous, so no need to reply with this trivial "show me the code". If there is a UI quality team, I want and I can help a bit, but my plates are already mostly full. But if Pharo thinks quality is good enough then ok, I will shut up. Hilaire Le 03/02/2017 Ã 09:54, denker a Ã©crit : > Yes, words is the problem: it is *so* easy to know what others have to do. > Trivial. *Doing* is hardâ¦ maybe you should be in charge of reviewing > all changes for pharo for one month? -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Feb. 3, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] WCAG color contrast rules - was: Re: These beautiful tooltips

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

On 03/02/2017 07:55, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > About colors, I am using these ones for some projects: http://clrs.cc/ > > Phil > For my part I use these colors: https://www.materialui.co/colors 500 been the default color and the going higher or lower for contrasts. In fact these colors are implemented in the class MDLColor loadable via the group "color" en MaterialDesignLite project. Here are the guidelines associated with these colors: https://material.io/guidelines/style/color.html#color-color-palette -- Cyril Ferlicot http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

Feb. 3, 2017