November 2017 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] deployment of pharo applications

by Sean P. DeNigris

Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote > The recent step was an insclusion of tests that will > reject any pull request that makes new package dependencies between system > layers. Thanks for this :) ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Nov. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Thanks for the diagram Aliaksei. It helps to understand the Pharo buildings blocks. Where Spec would be located there? Cheers, Offray On 11/11/17 15:56, Aliaksei Syrel wrote: > Hi Hilaire, > > About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see > parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, > Sparta, Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT, > > > Could you, please, explain in a bit more detail why do you think that > Sparta, Bloc, Brick and GT are overlapping layers? > > In attachment you can find a layered architecture diagram that > explains how those technologies are stacked _from our_ point of view :) > Inline images 1 > Cheers, > Alex > > On 11 November 2017 at 21:48, stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl > <mailto:stephan@stack.nl>> wrote: > > On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote: > > On 11/11/17, stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl > <mailto:stephan@stack.nl>> wrote: > > On 10-11-17 12:23, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: > > Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be > solved. > > > There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in > beautiful > graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft > Word still > cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of > development > > > Can you point to an example of this? > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography> > > Stephan > > >

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo

by Pavel Krivanek

2017-11-10 11:52 GMT+01:00 Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu>: > A cleaner Pharo will help there. > > To be frank, I found later Pharo releases not inspiring. Bigger, bigger > and bigger with added code, protocol changes, and bugs at will. It is > becoming too complicated for a hobby use of it. > > I decided I will not finish porting DrGeo to P6 or P7, and it will likely > die with P3. > To run DrGeo on Pharo 7 is not hard (see the screenshot) - of course it has some issues but they can be definitely solved. It would be pity to throw it away - at least you can benefit from 64-bit and faster VM. -- Pavel > Pharo should have been clean up to the bones before adding. It was the > initial moto, no? > > > Le 10/11/2017 Ã 11:14, Marcus Denker a Ã©crit : > >> It would be nice if someone who uses it would take the lead >> so we can improve the default that is shipped with Pharo. >> > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > >

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94

by Bernardo Ezequiel Contreras

check esugboard channel in youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCO-vBhaKVZf0al-ISMMPvRw On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 6:29 PM, ÐÐ¸ÐºÐµÐ½ÑÐ¸Ð¹ ÐÐ¾ÑÐ°Ð¿Ð¾Ð² <vikenti.potapov(a)gmail.com > wrote: > > I want to get these esug videos, but i've searched through the whole pharo > site and i haven't found them ... :( > I appreciate if you point me where to find help on working with minimal > image\deploying with Pharo. > And i also think this very important information should be available on > pharo site at conspicuous place. > > What about Dr.Geo - i've downloaded this program to test from official > site (http://www.drgeo.eu/download#TOC-PC-Mac-GNU-Linux) I launched > DrGeo.bat, as it noted in instruction. It shown me console window and Pharo > command line options. That's all. It didn't start. I think, the reason is - > also cyrillic paths, but ... who knows? > > And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in > Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me > what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack > my image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with > all image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool > stuff. It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not > enough to port this tool or create the new one. > > Please, understand me right, i don't criticize pharo, but i'm trying to > understand what to do and how to do with less efforts for me. And these are > the questions every developer asks. > > > On 11-11-17 18:58, ???????? ??????? wrote: > > > Another stumbling block is application deployment. > > > > You want to start from a minimal image and load everything you need with > > a Metacello baseline/configuration. And you want to change some settings > > to run without sources. You will run into parts that are not modularized > > enough yet and need their baselines to be split up further than they are > > now. > > > > The minimal image is rather minimal. See the esug videos > > > > Stephan > > > -- Bernardo E.C. Sent from a cheap desktop computer in South America.

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] deployment of pharo applications

by Pavel Krivanek

2017-11-11 21:42 GMT+01:00 Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu>: > Le 11/11/2017 Ã 18:58, ÐÐ¸ÐºÐµÐ½ÑÐ¸Ð¹ ÐÐ¾ÑÐ°Ð¿Ð¾Ð² a Ã©crit : > >> Well, i've got very extensive feedback for i18n of applications, there >> are few >> > You should use the gettext package from PharoExtra, this is the one > Seaside developers maintain. I don't understand why there are alternative > repo for it... > > [..] > > What can i do with Pharo? Does it have unified method to deploy pharo >> applications? I didn't find that method, and i ought to do some messy stuff >> "by hand". >> > Of course, you can completely automate your application build. > > You can take a look at the DrGeo build scripts there. Part of the image > preparation is done inside the image. > http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~drgeo-developers/drgeo/trunk/fi > les/head:/build/ > > The application build will not be the part I worry about, but more on the > GUI. I don't know how complex is your GUI application but Pharo is now on > flux with several competitive GUI frameworks, all in the image (spec, > Polymoprh, GT), and forth coming brick/bloc. And depending on the > complexity you need, you may not have all you need. > > If you follow the standard bootstrapping process but instead of BaselineOfIDE you use BaselineOfMorphic, I will get a usable image without development tools. Good as basis for applications like DrGeo. We are still improving modularity. The recent step was an insclusion of tests that will reject any pull request that makes new package dependencies between system layers. -- Pavel > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > >

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo-users Digest, Vol 55, Issue 94

by ÐÐ¸ÐºÐµÐ½ÑÐ¸Ð¹ ÐÐ¾ÑÐ°Ð¿Ð¾Ð²

I want to get these esug videos, but i've searched through the whole pharo site and i haven't found them ... :( I appreciate if you point me where to find help on working with minimal image\deploying with Pharo. And i also think this very important information should be available on pharo site at conspicuous place. What about Dr.Geo - i've downloaded this program to test from official site (http://www.drgeo.eu/download#TOC-PC-Mac-GNU-Linux) I launched DrGeo.bat, as it noted in instruction. It shown me console window and Pharo command line options. That's all. It didn't start. I think, the reason is - also cyrillic paths, but ... who knows? And also i mean some simple and understandable deployment tool (as in Cincom VW exists) but not manual-written bash scripts. This tool asks me what class\accessor send open message, asks what to strip and how to pack my image. Few simple steps and i have perfectly cleaned minimal image with all image started methods tuned to load necessary class. It's really cool stuff. It's a pity, my low-level SmallTalk knowledge (VW + Pharo) is not enough to port this tool or create the new one. Please, understand me right, i don't criticize pharo, but i'm trying to understand what to do and how to do with less efforts for me. And these are the questions every developer asks. > On 11-11-17 18:58, ???????? ??????? wrote: > > Another stumbling block is application deployment. > > You want to start from a minimal image and load everything you need with > a Metacello baseline/configuration. And you want to change some settings > to run without sources. You will run into parts that are not modularized > enough yet and need their baselines to be split up further than they are > now. > > The minimal image is rather minimal. See the esug videos > > Stephan

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo

by Aliaksei Syrel

Hi Hilaire, About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see > parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, > Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT, Could you, please, explain in a bit more detail why do you think that Sparta, Bloc, Brick and GT are overlapping layers? In attachment you can find a layered architecture diagram that explains how those technologies are stacked *from our* point of view :) [image: Inline images 1] Cheers, Alex On 11 November 2017 at 21:48, stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote: > >> On 11/11/17, stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> >>> On 10-11-17 12:23, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: >>> >>>> Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved. >>>> >>> >>> There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful >>> graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still >>> cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development >>> >> >> Can you point to an example of this? >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography > > Stephan > > >

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo

by stephan

On 11-11-17 21:18, H. Hirzel wrote: > On 11/11/17, stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: >> On 10-11-17 12:23, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler wrote: >>> Plus I have the impression Morphic mess is about to be solved. >> >> There is still an awful lot of essential complexity in beautiful >> graphics and typography that is not going away. Microsoft Word still >> cannot layout a paragraph of text after 34 years of development > > Can you point to an example of this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtypography Stephan

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] deployment of pharo applications

by Hilaire

Le 11/11/2017 Ã 18:58, ÐÐ¸ÐºÐµÐ½ÑÐ¸Ð¹ ÐÐ¾ÑÐ°Ð¿Ð¾Ð² a Ã©critÂ : > Well, i've got very extensive feedback for i18n of applications, there are few You should use the gettext package from PharoExtra, this is the one Seaside developers maintain. I don't understand why there are alternative repo for it... [..] > What can i do with Pharo? Does it have unified method to deploy pharo applications? I didn't find that method, and i ought to do some messy stuff "by hand". Of course, you can completely automate your application build. You can take a look at the DrGeo build scripts there. Part of the image preparation is done inside the image. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~drgeo-developers/drgeo/trunk/files/head:/build/ The application build will not be the part I worry about, but more on the GUI. I don't know how complex is your GUI application but Pharo is now on flux with several competitive GUI frameworks, all in the image (spec, Polymoprh, GT), and forth coming brick/bloc. And depending on the complexity you need, you may not have all you need. -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Nov. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] I18n in pharo

by Hilaire

P6 is definitely a better IDE compare to previous version, and for coming Calypso looks fantastic, but P6 is a worst vehicle for a desktop application. There is much more code included and you are on your on to shrink/clean it to deploy your desktop application to make it looks and behave user friendly. May be for a specialized audience it could be just fine to deploy as is. About my perception on Pharo, from a distant POV, I see parallel/overlapping/contiguous layers like Morphic, Athens, Sparta, Bloc, Brick, Spec, GT, Polymorph all this looks confusing for me and I really don't know or understand where to put my eggs. When I took a look at Pharo keyboard shortcut, it seems to be -- without been sure 100% -- there are two different implementations. One from GT and another one, probably a legacy one. How can it happen? Then you wonder about other part of the system. It makes fells like changes/implementations are not coherent, and you don't really fell the environment as coherent or trustful. May be the twist is ontological, Pharo (and Squeak) taking too much responsibilities and not delegating enough to the host environment: GUI, Freetype, Canvas. The energy required is then out of reach or the needed coherence in teams works too complex. Don't know, just blind guesses, I will now shut up. Le 10/11/2017 Ã 12:23, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler a Ã©critÂ : > But I have the opposite impression (of course I donât have to maintain a big project like yours - I wouldnât say youâre the hobby user:) ). But I really find P6 more consistent than what I used to try in the past (last squeaks up to 3.9 and firsts pharo). -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Nov. 11, 2017