November 2017 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] Short report about Pharo experience

by Dimitris Chloupis

Just to clarify, you will never read from me that Python or Pharo is superior or what else. Superior and better is highly subjective and depends obviously on your needs and specific problem you want to solve. What I am saying , is yes I am perfectly ok and even encourage Pharo offering similar functionality we come to expect from other IDEs, languages, third party tools etc . There is definetly a lot of value in offering something that is easier to learn and an easier way of doing things. The essense of computers is to automate stuff. But like any other language, IDE, third party tool etc Pharo attracts a specific kind of people. Python attracts people that want the easiest learning curve possible C attracts people who want the highest performance code possible Pharo attracts people who want a highest productivity workflow with full customisability. Which one is best ? Hmm.... highly debatable, which is why language wars end to up nowhere. Its not that Pharo cannot be fast, or easy to learn, its not that C cannot be easy to learn and fully customisable and highly productive and its not that Python cannot be top performance or highly productive and full customisable. But each one has its own priorities and life is all about priorities. On the matter of application deployment to offer you some recommendations What you can do 1) Rename the executable, which basically contains the VM 2) Change the icon of the executable 3) Create a startup script , if you want to have some kind of default behavior when the user first opens Pharo or each time it opens it 4) Use attached morphs to world, these morphs cannot be resized, take the entire space of pharo window and block any interaction with the Pharo ide. When you dont not want your user to access your application internals. 5) Morphic offers themes you can use to add a special touch to your interface even making it look more native 6) There is no need for an installer but if you want to create one because of dependencies that are shared among application you can use any third party tool that can be used for any other language , nothing special here 7) You can offer automatic updates via git, Metacello gives a lot of access to git functionality so you can connect to your git repo , check the latest version and redowload the source in the background using a fork process 8) you can use makefiles with Pharo for generating diffirent builds for your application, again you can use pharo startup scripts to automatically install code to a freshly build image. 9) The help tool can be used as internal documentation of your image 10) If you want a cheap way to crate a multi core application, you can trigger multiple instances of pharo and let them talk with each other via sockets. Each istance will be assigned by OS to a separate core 11) If you must absolutely have a native interface run pharo without its ui (this happens with the use of pharo.exe instead of pharo-ui.exe ) and use the UFFI to generate your interface using the the native interface of your OS. This of course will make your application non cross platform but is still a popular choice for mosr desktop applications 12) Its also possible use HTML/JS as GUI for Pharo, again you can use a web engine, like WebKit and UFFI 13) Ask questions here for anything, never hesitate 14) If all fails you can always use Pharo together with other languages, again using sockets, or shared memory, or pipes, Pharo gives you full access to your OS and the OS offer many ways for communication between process / applications / executables. On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 11:09 AM Hans N Beck < hnbeck(a)educational-concepts.biz> wrote: > Hi Stef, > > sure :) > > But just before let me comment the other posts: yes youâre right. Pharo > and Smalltalk follows a different philosophy and therefore some common > terms like âappâ and âideâ doesnât make sense or have to be reinterpreted. > > You can always say: look, I have a super cool concept, dive In but you > have to forget every thing else. > OR: > I offer you a new concept, look how it can help you to solve daily > tasks and getting jobs done. > > Both perspectives have value to me. And I donât say Pharo should priories > the one or other. But with my post, Iâm taking the perspective of I need a > tool to solve problems, in my given environment, my colleagues, my > customers, my IT infrastructure, my constraints. > > Pharo is well in being the superior new concept. We know that. All what I > want give you, the Pharo experts the feedback that Iâm very happy them that > Pharo is on the way for having value for the other perspective, a tool for > solving problems in daily work. > > Not more not less. > > Cheers > > Hans > > > > Am 23.11.2017 um 09:54 schrieb Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com > >: > > > > Hi hans > > > > Thank you for this analysis. > > Now do you want me to state a question? > > > > Stef > > > > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Hans N Beck > > <hnbeck(a)educational-concepts.biz> wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Shiny for the R language is a very useful technique to create > responsive applications based on Web technologies - with all the advantage > the big ecosystem of JS libraries offers. > >> With Shiny in mind, Iâm working with Teapot on Pharo. Dashboard like > use interface with Processing (exactly: p5.js) and other things is in mind. > >> From my job, I do a similiar thing. But because of our IT policy, I > have to work with Python (using Tornado server and Dash) and SignalR for > Microsoft .Net (exactly: ASP.net) > >> > >> So I can compare. And if I remember the work with Pharo many years ago, > I can state the following: > >> > >> - The Microsoft Visual Studio offers a lot. It has many functions, > assistants, components and libraries and a huge bunch of documentation > which support to concentrate on the problem. Details are hidden, and even > deployment is a matter of minutes. But this professionallity has the > downsize of complexity, and to understand whats going on is not always > easy. But if you manage this complexity you can get professional apps in a > reasonable time. > >> > >> - Python is flexible and dynamic. I use the Anaconda distribution with > Spyder which has good support for interactivity and debugging. Many > libraries of good quality are available in the python world, you can tackle > any problem. Also here: support professional software development in good > time is given. A little bit more than Microsoft, the Python things are > more understandable and more lightweight. > >> > >> Pharo, in its incarnation today (6.1) comes very near to this. Also > Pharo has many libraries, a good to use âIDEâ and professional tools for > debugging and profiling. BUT: Pharo is far more transparent. The > interactivity and the availability of every sourcecode in combination with > the debugging capabilities inherent to Smalltalk are helping to understand > every thing. And Pharos today documentation address now relevant but not to > complicated problems, cover all important tools and libraries and supports > starting at beginner level. Pharo has lost the nature of a expert or nerd > secret magic wizard tool. > >> > >> In this direct comparison, I had some wishes for the future of Pharo: > >> > >> - Deployment: it should be possible to deploy a âsingle clickâ > application, independet if native GUI or Web App or Shiny like > >> - More standard solutions: many libraries have examples, but they are > sometimes to trivial or just irrelevant for daily practice > >> - More product oriented: libraries should have more wizzards or > application pattern. Imaginary example: for Teapot or Seaside would it be > fine if there were some code generator for a 4 Tile dashboard app, or a > data viz app, themes like in hugo or bootstrap. I may be wrong, but the > nature of many libraries or tools is âmake anything possibleâ instread of > âI help you to write your productâ. Do you understand what I want to say ? > >> > >> Anyway. I can state: Phare IS on the right way. It is. Much much > progress the last years. Thank you all ! And if it becomes more and more a > product for professionals (in industry), the future will be top ! And this > doesnet mean to give up the computer science part. Pharo is cool to try > concepts and ideas. So Pharo has BOTH sides, which does it make great. > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Hans > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > >

Nov. 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Travis build failing because of bad CRC

by Norbert Hartl

Christophe, > Am 23.11.2017 um 09:33 schrieb Christophe Demarey <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr>: > > >> Le 23 nov. 2017 Ã 09:08, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> a Ã©crit : >> >> We need to exit Inria and do our own infrastructure. > > Marcus, could you elaborate? Why do we need to exit Inria? > Do you have money to pay the infrastructure? Inria provides it for free for the Pharo consortium. > Of course, the problem is super annoying but the problem is not directly related to Inria. It is related to Renater (national research and education network in France), the network Inria is connected to. An incident is open there. I still have no feedback, so cannot say why it takes so much time to solve the problem. your view might be too technical here. Aren't you the one that does Cargo so dependencies are well known to you? ;) The point is that it just does not work and it doesn't matter whose fault this is. The point is that it is there for a long time and nobody way able to fix it. Everyone including you is working so hard on the future for pharo. But this behaviour is like a slap in the face of everyone working for pharo. You drive away newcomers and people that would like to work with pharo. It is not possible to download an image or vm or something from smalltalkhub reliably. If this is not fully clear let me tell you what I did yesteray. I resurrected an older project and ported it pharo6. In order to download the image I had the execute the curl command 6 times in a row and another two times to get a vm. Then I tried loading the project with metacello and get a debugger because the downloaded archive is corrupt. I need to open the full debugger to see which file it is. Then I need to remove the corrupt file from the package-cache and restart. And yesterdayI had to do this more then 30 (!!!) times until I could load the full project. I think it is completely out of question to wait until is able to fix it. And if the money of the consortium is not enough to pay such a service then we need to put in some more. I'm all ears! Norbert

Nov. 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Short report about Pharo experience

by Hans N Beck

Hi Stef, sure :) But just before let me comment the other posts: yes youâre right. Pharo and Smalltalk follows a different philosophy and therefore some common terms like âappâ and âideâ doesnât make sense or have to be reinterpreted. You can always say: look, I have a super cool concept, dive In but you have to forget every thing else. OR: I offer you a new concept, look how it can help you to solve daily tasks and getting jobs done. Both perspectives have value to me. And I donât say Pharo should priories the one or other. But with my post, Iâm taking the perspective of I need a tool to solve problems, in my given environment, my colleagues, my customers, my IT infrastructure, my constraints. Pharo is well in being the superior new concept. We know that. All what I want give you, the Pharo experts the feedback that Iâm very happy them that Pharo is on the way for having value for the other perspective, a tool for solving problems in daily work. Not more not less. Cheers Hans > Am 23.11.2017 um 09:54 schrieb Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com>: > > Hi hans > > Thank you for this analysis. > Now do you want me to state a question? > > Stef > > On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Hans N Beck > <hnbeck(a)educational-concepts.biz> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Shiny for the R language is a very useful technique to create responsive applications based on Web technologies - with all the advantage the big ecosystem of JS libraries offers. >> With Shiny in mind, Iâm working with Teapot on Pharo. Dashboard like use interface with Processing (exactly: p5.js) and other things is in mind. >> From my job, I do a similiar thing. But because of our IT policy, I have to work with Python (using Tornado server and Dash) and SignalR for Microsoft .Net (exactly: ASP.net) >> >> So I can compare. And if I remember the work with Pharo many years ago, I can state the following: >> >> - The Microsoft Visual Studio offers a lot. It has many functions, assistants, components and libraries and a huge bunch of documentation which support to concentrate on the problem. Details are hidden, and even deployment is a matter of minutes. But this professionallity has the downsize of complexity, and to understand whats going on is not always easy. But if you manage this complexity you can get professional apps in a reasonable time. >> >> - Python is flexible and dynamic. I use the Anaconda distribution with Spyder which has good support for interactivity and debugging. Many libraries of good quality are available in the python world, you can tackle any problem. Also here: support professional software development in good time is given. A little bit more than Microsoft, the Python things are more understandable and more lightweight. >> >> Pharo, in its incarnation today (6.1) comes very near to this. Also Pharo has many libraries, a good to use âIDEâ and professional tools for debugging and profiling. BUT: Pharo is far more transparent. The interactivity and the availability of every sourcecode in combination with the debugging capabilities inherent to Smalltalk are helping to understand every thing. And Pharos today documentation address now relevant but not to complicated problems, cover all important tools and libraries and supports starting at beginner level. Pharo has lost the nature of a expert or nerd secret magic wizard tool. >> >> In this direct comparison, I had some wishes for the future of Pharo: >> >> - Deployment: it should be possible to deploy a âsingle clickâ application, independet if native GUI or Web App or Shiny like >> - More standard solutions: many libraries have examples, but they are sometimes to trivial or just irrelevant for daily practice >> - More product oriented: libraries should have more wizzards or application pattern. Imaginary example: for Teapot or Seaside would it be fine if there were some code generator for a 4 Tile dashboard app, or a data viz app, themes like in hugo or bootstrap. I may be wrong, but the nature of many libraries or tools is âmake anything possibleâ instread of âI help you to write your productâ. Do you understand what I want to say ? >> >> Anyway. I can state: Phare IS on the right way. It is. Much much progress the last years. Thank you all ! And if it becomes more and more a product for professionals (in industry), the future will be top ! And this doesnet mean to give up the computer science part. Pharo is cool to try concepts and ideas. So Pharo has BOTH sides, which does it make great. >> >> Cheers >> >> Hans >> >> >> >> >> >> >

Nov. 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Short report about Pharo experience

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi hans Thank you for this analysis. Now do you want me to state a question? Stef On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Hans N Beck <hnbeck(a)educational-concepts.biz> wrote: > Hi, > > Shiny for the R language is a very useful technique to create responsive applications based on Web technologies - with all the advantage the big ecosystem of JS libraries offers. > With Shiny in mind, Iâm working with Teapot on Pharo. Dashboard like use interface with Processing (exactly: p5.js) and other things is in mind. > From my job, I do a similiar thing. But because of our IT policy, I have to work with Python (using Tornado server and Dash) and SignalR for Microsoft .Net (exactly: ASP.net) > > So I can compare. And if I remember the work with Pharo many years ago, I can state the following: > > - The Microsoft Visual Studio offers a lot. It has many functions, assistants, components and libraries and a huge bunch of documentation which support to concentrate on the problem. Details are hidden, and even deployment is a matter of minutes. But this professionallity has the downsize of complexity, and to understand whats going on is not always easy. But if you manage this complexity you can get professional apps in a reasonable time. > > - Python is flexible and dynamic. I use the Anaconda distribution with Spyder which has good support for interactivity and debugging. Many libraries of good quality are available in the python world, you can tackle any problem. Also here: support professional software development in good time is given. A little bit more than Microsoft, the Python things are more understandable and more lightweight. > > Pharo, in its incarnation today (6.1) comes very near to this. Also Pharo has many libraries, a good to use âIDEâ and professional tools for debugging and profiling. BUT: Pharo is far more transparent. The interactivity and the availability of every sourcecode in combination with the debugging capabilities inherent to Smalltalk are helping to understand every thing. And Pharos today documentation address now relevant but not to complicated problems, cover all important tools and libraries and supports starting at beginner level. Pharo has lost the nature of a expert or nerd secret magic wizard tool. > > In this direct comparison, I had some wishes for the future of Pharo: > > - Deployment: it should be possible to deploy a âsingle clickâ application, independet if native GUI or Web App or Shiny like > - More standard solutions: many libraries have examples, but they are sometimes to trivial or just irrelevant for daily practice > - More product oriented: libraries should have more wizzards or application pattern. Imaginary example: for Teapot or Seaside would it be fine if there were some code generator for a 4 Tile dashboard app, or a data viz app, themes like in hugo or bootstrap. I may be wrong, but the nature of many libraries or tools is âmake anything possibleâ instread of âI help you to write your productâ. Do you understand what I want to say ? > > Anyway. I can state: Phare IS on the right way. It is. Much much progress the last years. Thank you all ! And if it becomes more and more a product for professionals (in industry), the future will be top ! And this doesnet mean to give up the computer science part. Pharo is cool to try concepts and ideas. So Pharo has BOTH sides, which does it make great. > > Cheers > > Hans > > > > > >

Nov. 23, 2017

I love the launcher!!!!

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi I love the PharoLauncher. It helps me to manage my parallel development and projects. We should put a link on the Pharo web site because http://files.pharo.org/platform/launcher/ is arcane. Stef

Nov. 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Short report about Pharo experience

by john pfersich

+1000 Sent from my iPhone On Nov 22, 2017, at 23:57, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> - Deployment: it should be possible to deploy a âsingle clickâ application, independet if native GUI or Web App or Shiny like >> - More standard solutions: many libraries have examples, but they are sometimes to trivial or just irrelevant for daily practice >> - More product oriented: libraries should have more wizzards or application pattern. Imaginary example: for Teapot or Seaside would it be fine if there were some code generator for a 4 Tile dashboard app, or a data viz app, themes like in hugo or bootstrap. I may be wrong, but the nature of many libraries or tools is âmake anything possibleâ instread of âI help you to write your productâ. Do you understand what I want to say ? >> >> Anyway. I can state: Phare IS on the right way. It is. Much much progress the last years. Thank you all ! And if it becomes more and more a product for professionals (in industry), the future will be top ! And this doesnet mean to give up the computer science part. Pharo is cool to try concepts and ideas. So Pharo has BOTH sides, which does it make great. >> >> Cheers >> >> Hans > > if by single click you mean you press a button and an application is created , technically with pharo you dont even need to push a button, as pharo is already an application. > > Pharo is not an IDE, is not a language, is not a virtual os , or a live coding enviroment. Its simply an application that fullfils all these roles.You may say "so what, everything is an application" , well not quite because Pharo is an application practically written in itself offering you direct access to all its internal making it completely customisable. Even its VM can be customised from inside Pharo which if you think about it, other languages would consider this a form of insanity and to a point they are correct to do so. > > Thus there is no point of creating standalone applications with Pharo because this goes against its very ideology of IDE, most IDEs nowdays miss the I, standing for Integration which means that you integrate development tools, plus language plus your code in one thing. These things are not used merely to create the application they are meant to be included with the application you create. I usually say to people that they have no clue what integration means until they coded in Smalltalk. Smalltalk is just light years ahead in that departmen and so is Pharo. > > A standalone application rips these things apart , its the seperation between development builds and release builds that are far less meaningful for Pharo and you will rarely read about them in this mailing list. > > The actual problem of Pharo is the sever lack of documentation. Its much better nowdays than it used to but the fact remains that biggest weakness of Pharo is that it moves about 1000 times faster than its documentation. This is one huge disadvantage of a very productive/ succesful development enviroment. > > Python which is a language I also regularly use on daily basise, its a language that barely changes wtih each version. The only singificant change for Python was Python 3 and even that pales in comparison to the massive changes we see in each Pharo version. The next version of Pharo for example may have a completely new GUI API , that is something you rarely see happening to a language. This is ok because Pharo obviously is not a programming language and neither is Smalltalk. > > On the matter of standalone applications , Pharo offers a masive degree of customisation that is unknown even amongst its most experienced users. Pretty much anything you see and dont see is customisable. So ironically Pharo offers a much larger degree of efficiency for generating standalone applications than any IDE or language out there , or even third party tool. By standalone in this case I mean application that execute by themselves without even a need to be installed. > > The reason for this, is the same reason Pharo is so extremely productive. Its not the live enviroment, its not the pure OOP, its not the IDE, or the simplicity of the language. > > Its the I, Integration. > > No language or IDE , however much more powerful it may seem can ever come close to competing with Pharo. That does not make Pharo the best choice, just the most flexible. > > In the end the fact that Pharo evolution is thousands times faster than its documentaiton is a very solid reason not to use Pharo and not to recommend to others. Because in the end documentation is extremely important. > > But this is one of those scenarios of not having your cake and eating too. With Pharo you choose to sacrifice documentation for high coding productivity. Of course lack of documentation hinders productivity but that is only temporarily until you learn what you want to learn. But then learning what you want make take years if not decades. > > To explain how one can create a standalone application with Pharo in full detail is to explain the entire Pharo in full detail. This is why articles that have been written in the past just barely scratch the surface and tend to give the opposite impression. > > Bottom line if you come to Pharo for wizards, documentation and generally hand holding attitude , go back to Python. Python is excellent at this role and is practically untouchable by its competition which is why it is considered the king of "ease of use". Pharo is the exact opposite, its difficult , frustration, annoying, messy and extremely manual. > > But if you search for most the powerful and flexible development enviroment in the world. Nothing comes remotely close to Pharo. Pharo is the undisputed king of Integration. It will blow your mind like a nuclear explosion of how extremely customisable it is. > > Which lead to the inate question what makes one more productive the Python or the Pharo ideology ? > > My answer is that Python offers more productivity in the short run (which is why is No 1 if not the only recommended language for beginners to coding) but in the long run after extensive study of the Pharo enviroment , which means reading tons upon tons of code (it sucks I know, especially when you realise that not even classes have comments), Pharo is the clear winner. As soon as you eliminate the need for documentation and wizard like attitude Pharo moves at the speed of light. > > There is an effort to make Pharo more Pythonic, but to be sincere, Pharo will always be Pharo and personally I do not like to hide Pharo shortcoming as I do not like to to hide its strenghts. > > Pharo essentially does not care about other languages, because its not a language. > Pharo essentially does not care about IDEs, because its not an IDE. > Pharo essentially does not care about wizards, because its not wzard. > > Pharo's charm is that it has the courage to say "I do not care , I will do things my way" and just push forward. > > So you could say Pharo is the very definition of acquired taste. Its not so much about being better and more about being diffirent. Which is a breath of fresh air in the world that everybody copies everybody else. > > So my advince to all newcomers is that if you are here for the right reasons and ready to commit to the Pharo ideology, arm yourself with massive amount of patience and march on. It will be a bumpy but extremely rewarding ride and completly change the way you think about coding and especially about OOP.

Nov. 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Travis build failing because of bad CRC

by Marcus Denker

> On 23 Nov 2017, at 09:33, Christophe Demarey <christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > >> Le 23 nov. 2017 Ã 09:08, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> a Ã©crit : >> >> We need to exit Inria and do our own infrastructure. > > Marcus, could you elaborate? Why do we need to exit Inria? Because it does not work. > Do you have money to pay the infrastructure? Inria provides it for free for the Pharo consortium. > Of course, the problem is super annoying but the problem is not directly related to Inria. It is related to Renater (national research and education network in France), the network Inria is connected to. An incident is open there. I still have no feedback, so cannot say why it takes so much time to solve the problem. That alone is hard explain to anyone. Marcus

Nov. 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Travis build failing because of bad CRC

by Christophe Demarey

> Le 23 nov. 2017 Ã 09:08, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> a Ã©crit : > > We need to exit Inria and do our own infrastructure. Marcus, could you elaborate? Why do we need to exit Inria? Do you have money to pay the infrastructure? Inria provides it for free for the Pharo consortium. Of course, the problem is super annoying but the problem is not directly related to Inria. It is related to Renater (national research and education network in France), the network Inria is connected to. An incident is open there. I still have no feedback, so cannot say why it takes so much time to solve the problem.

Nov. 23, 2017

DDD (Domain Driven Design) framework

by phil＠highoctane.be

I saw in a success story (http://pharo.org/success/Contestia) that a DDD framework was created and used. Is there any way to have it available in some form? No need for it to be open source. I am writing code for a specific domain where Pharo can really shine due to the exploratory nature of the domain. DDD is an important aspect of the project and if I can avoid reinventing the wheel, that would be awesome. The current alternative to Pharo is with PHP and ZendFramework + Prooph http://getprooph.org/ Needless to say, I'd be happier with Pharo (even if the PHP stack is very capable and proved itself in battle). Phil

Nov. 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Travis build failing because of bad CRC

by Marcus Denker

We need to exit Inria and do our own infrastructure. The problem is that this will take quite some time and effort. Marcus > On 22 Nov 2017, at 22:49, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > This more than super annoying. And it is as bad for smalltalkhub as it is for the files.pharo.org server > >> Am 22.11.2017 um 21:35 schrieb Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com>: >> >> Marcus told me that he wants to address this problem because this is >> super annoying. >> >> Stef >> >>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 7:57 PM, Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>> So the fix is just to relaunch the build? :-) >>> >>> Julien >>> >>>> Le 19 nov. 2017 Ã 19:56, Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : >>>> >>>> Le 19/11/2017 Ã 19:54, Julien a Ã©crit : >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> Iâm trying to set up continuous integration for one of my project but I >>>>> have an error with the CRC of the VM (see the >>>>> log https://travis-ci.org/juliendelplanque/PostgreSQLParser/jobs/304401690) >>>>> >>>>> Is it my fault? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not your fault. It happen also randomly on Synectique's CI. >>>> >>>>> Thanks in advance, >>>>> >>>>> Julien >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cyril Ferlicot >>>> https://ferlicot.fr >>>> >>>> http://www.synectique.eu >>>> 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, >>>> 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France >>>> >>> >>> >

Nov. 23, 2017