October 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Care to explain what difficulty you experienced in live coding with Python. Or what Pharo can do that Python canât live code wise ? Maybe I will learn something. On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 at 04:36, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > Well IPython is not near to Pharo in terms of flexibility and live coding, > and I have been a user of it. For example, recently we made a whole book 13 > Mb PDF book in a single Grafoscopio file of just ~600k, with a pretty good > layout and final design (more details in other recent thread and in [1]). > JupyterLab[2] is going in the direction of becoming a more complete IDE, > but there are still a lot of stuff that is better done in Pharo, like unit > testing, that in JupyterLab. In fact Brian Granger has told that the "I" is > for interactive, not for integrated [3]. Of course, after over a decade of > hard work and several millions of dollars, Jupyter is doing pretty well on > the interactive notebooks front, but Pharo's edge in live coding and > moldability, plus a superb small, agile and friendly community allowed a > beginner to prototype valuable propositions about reproducible research and > computer storytelling, without such background. > [1] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/ > [2] http://jupyterlab.github.io/ > [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejh0ftSjk6g > > So, I have experienced live coding in IPython/Jupyter and > Pharo/Grafoscopio and still I think that Pharo has value proposals hard to > find on any behemoths. Live coding there is getting good, but Pharo is even > better, and that plus moldability make Pharo unbeatable, when you're > changing/exploring a running system. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 06/10/17 16:18, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in > OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths > can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > > And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I > currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure > it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines > of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least > Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need > even less. > > iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the > real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > > To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including > using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both > the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an > image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of > essential functionality. > > For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised > by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > > But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, > its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... > yiaks !!! > > I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and > opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding > an other way ever again. > > I really hope that we take this further though. > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk >> < >> https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c… >> > >> >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve >> the impact of the article. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well any code you execute right now is to a degree live code. DLL are dynamically loaded libraries which means you reload code real time. DLLs are everywhere and of course even Pharo heavily relies on them. Yes in Python live coding is as easy , I already explained in previous post. On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 at 01:51, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > To be honest, I didn't know you could do live coding in Python, Ruby, > C/C++. > I had only ever heard of "hot swapping" in Java. > > At any rate, I'd be surprised if live coding in these languages was as easy > and convenient as in Pharo/Smalltalk. > > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as > > Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live > > coding. > > > > Come on. > > > >> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis < > > > kilon.alios@ > > > > wrote: > >> > >> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in > >> OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two > >> behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > >> > >> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I > >> currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. > Sure > >> it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 > >> lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At > >> least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language > may > >> need even less. > >> > >> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the > >> real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > >> > >> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including > >> using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by > both > >> the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has > >> an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a > lot > >> of essential functionality. > >> > >> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised > >> by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > >> > >> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template > system, > >> its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that > >> syntax..... yiaks !!! > >> > >> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and > >> opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine > >> coding an other way ever again. > >> > >> I really hope that we take this further though. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > > wrote: > >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > >> < > https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c… > ; > >> > >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to > >> improve > >> the impact of the article. > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >> > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi, On 06/10/17 20:41, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > I am no expert in OOP but I cannot say I have found a thing that Pharo > can do that Python canât or is more difficult. Python obviously is > very heavily inspired by Smalltalk . I can find one: creating an environment for reproducible research and literate computing (interactive documentation). It can be done on both,Â but is harder and a lot more complicated in Python that in Pharo, as experience have shown [1] [1] http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-ini… Cheers, Offray

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well live coding is a simple process of reloading code. In Pharo the VM recompiles a method and replace itâs old instance with a new one while code executes. Python you basically reload the module. Because Python does not compile per method but per module which means executing code lively. This happens because when you import a module in Python, Python does nothing special than executing the source code. Not before compilation but during execution. Hence live coding, the Python VM replaces objects lively. Python can also compile any size of code including individual methods. That happens with one line of code importlib.reload(mymodule) The next challenge in live coding is capture the error and not allowing the app to exit, that is 2 lines of code and is a python exception. Python exceptions are heavily used in Python to capture errors. Debugging is up to the debugger that Python provides as a library with conditional breakpoints and fully integrated . You can of course ask at any point for any kind of context, global , local, arguments , instance and class variables. The debugger also comes with its own REPL. Again everything is an object. OOP wise , in Python everything is an object including procedure. Procedures like blocks in Pharo are objects with one method. Procedures are anonymous but if the name really bothers you you can use lamba functions. Python has bigger syntax than Pharo but anything can be implemented as an object. Global variables are objects, imported modules are objects etc. Reflection wise , Python is a fully reflective an object can ask itself or others about its live state, methods, bytecode and source code. Meta programming wiseython allows for fully manipulation of objects down to bytecode level. Python has no need for traits because it allows the live replacement of its methods with procedures or methods from other objects. Finally like Pharo , Python comes with a very powerful AST library capable of fully manipulating the syntax . HyLang is a Lisp made in Python that compiles to Python bytecode and can use any Python library. The one thing Python cannot do at least out of the box is privacy. In Pharo everything is private , methods hide behind messages , variables behind methods. In Python everything is public and privacy is annotated in naming only using double underscores. Python also has properties which are methods that override variable assignment , similarly how we use getter and sender methods for object variables in Pharo. What Python recently got has been optional static types but I am not sure if they are real static types , because I am not a fan of static typing anyway. I am no expert in OOP but I cannot say I have found a thing that Pharo can do that Python canât or is more difficult. Python obviously is very heavily inspired by Smalltalk . The very brief look I gave Ruby looked to me that it is even closer to Smalltalk. On Sat, 7 Oct 2017 at 01:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as > Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live coding. > > Come on. > > > On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in > OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths > can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > > > > And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I > currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure > it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines > of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least > Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need > even less. > > > > iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the > real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > > > > To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including > using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both > the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an > image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of > essential functionality. > > > > For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised > by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > > > > But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template > system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that > syntax..... yiaks !!! > > > > I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and > opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding > an other way ever again. > > > > I really hope that we take this further though. > > > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > > < > https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c… > > > > > > If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to > improve > > the impact of the article. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Well IPython is not near to Pharo in terms of flexibility and live coding, and I have been a user of it. For example, recently we made a whole book 13 Mb PDF book in a single Grafoscopio file of just ~600k, with a pretty good layout and final design (more details in other recent thread and in [1]). JupyterLab[2] is going in the direction of becoming a more complete IDE, but there are still a lot of stuff that is better done in Pharo, like unit testing, that in JupyterLab. In fact Brian Granger has told that the "I" is for interactive, not for integrated [3]. Of course, after over a decade of hard work and several millions of dollars, Jupyter is doing pretty well on the interactive notebooks front, but Pharo's edge in live coding and moldability, plus a superb small, agile and friendly community allowed a beginner to prototype valuable propositions about reproducible research and computer storytelling, without such background. [1] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/ [2] http://jupyterlab.github.io/ [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejh0ftSjk6g So, I have experienced live coding in IPython/Jupyter and Pharo/Grafoscopio and still I think that Pharo has value proposals hard to find on any behemoths. Live coding there is getting good, but Pharo is even better, and that plus moldability make Pharo unbeatable, when you're changing/exploring a running system. Cheers, Offray On 06/10/17 16:18, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in > OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two > behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP.Â > > And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I > currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. > Sure it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in > 10 lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live > coding. At least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of > Smalltalk language may need even less.Â > > iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the > real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment.Â > > To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including > using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by > both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , > OS has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs > and a lot of essential functionality.Â > > For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much > utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why.Â > > But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template > system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that > syntax..... yiaks !!! > > I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and > opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine > coding an other way ever again.Â > > I really hope that we take this further though.Â > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com > <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c…> > > If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to > improve > the impact of the article. > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Sean P. DeNigris

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > But the point remains, given an image and all our tools, why go to the > web. It seems like the value would be more as a PR tool than a development tool. ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by horrido

To be honest, I didn't know you could do live coding in Python, Ruby, C/C++. I had only ever heard of "hot swapping" in Java. At any rate, I'd be surprised if live coding in these languages was as easy and convenient as in Pharo/Smalltalk. Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as > Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live > coding. > > Come on. > >> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis < > kilon.alios@ > > wrote: >> >> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in >> OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two >> behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. >> >> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I >> currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure >> it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 >> lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At >> least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may >> need even less. >> >> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the >> real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. >> >> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including >> using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both >> the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has >> an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot >> of essential functionality. >> >> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised >> by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. >> >> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, >> its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that >> syntax..... yiaks !!! >> >> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and >> opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine >> coding an other way ever again. >> >> I really hope that we take this further though. >> >> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > > wrote: >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk >> <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c46053> >> >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to >> improve >> the impact of the article. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 6, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live coding. Come on. > On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > > And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need even less. > > iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > > To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of essential functionality. > > For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > > But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... yiaks !!! > > I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding an other way ever again. > > I really hope that we take this further though. > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c…> > > If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve > the impact of the article. > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 6, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need even less. iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of essential functionality. For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... yiaks !!! I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding an other way ever again. I really hope that we take this further though. On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > < > https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c… > > > > If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve > the impact of the article. > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 6, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Gabriel Cotelli

I've tried running it from the terminal and it works!. If I double-click it from the file manager and choose "Run in Terminal" it gives the previously commented error. On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Christophe Demarey < christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi Gabriel, > > Le 6 oct. 2017 Ã 15:48, Gabriel Cotelli <g.cotelli(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > I've tried it on Linux, and after the download has finished it cannot > launch a Pharo 6.1 image. Find attached the PharoDebug.log > > Seems it's searching for the sources file in a wrong location. > *Pharo cannot locate the sources file named > /home/gcotelli/Pharo/pharo-launcher/bin/lib/pharo/5.0-201707201942/PharoV60.sources.* > > > Strange indeed! > Iâm not able to reproduce it on my ubuntu vm. > > Itâs surprising that sources file is search in the folder of the VM > shipped with the launcher. Images are run with VM downloaded in the VM > store ($HOME/Pharo/vms) and sources file is search in the vm directory. > Could you tell me if you run the launcher from a terminal? Could you send > me your environment variables to see if I can find something relevant there? >

Oct. 6, 2017