October 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

No because turing conplete means you have to implement all those live features yourself, I only gave a taste but I return to Python because thats the language I know the most, you can live manipulate objects in so many diffirent ways and mess their structure. Make a method become an instance variable,and instance variable to a method, rename variables , change the signature of your methods but only on specific instance or on the class itself. There is an incredibe large library of object manipulation features there to be tamed. Pharo can do many of those things and more of course. Turing complete would apply to me if I said, Python has no live coding feature, but you can implement those if you want. Thats not what I am saying. Python or C may not call this live coding, they call it dynamic libraries, dynamic loading of modules, exceptions , post mortem debugging (debugger popping up in case of error) , module reloading, execution time compiling and many more. They never mentions the word "live coding" , but the features themselves are directly related and very fundamental requirements for live coding. Those features exists because live coding is a necessity , there will be always scenarios that a coder will want to dynamically change something during execution. There is no big ideology behind it like Pharto , which is why Pharo is the best at live coding, but rather practical needs that users requested to be resolved and the devs of languages were forced to implement them to keep them happy. For example its possible to extend live coding outside the Pharo image, using memory mapped files , the Pharo image can be extended not only to save Pharo live state but also the live state of any C library it depends on. This is crucial when you open the image and then you find something does not work because C live state was not storred which is why we have the session attribute we use to make sure that C libraries are correctly initialize in image startup. My CPPBridge which is 100% Pharo project , if you exclude some C examples , it provide a basic way of a live coding image that can act as an extension to the pharo image and include live C state. So yes I have done my hopework. As a matter of fact each time I hear arguments turing complete wise, I facepalm myself. Because its a louse excuse to support a language. Any tool or library that can save you time its a huge deal. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:40 PM Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Dimitris. > > You opinion about live programming reminds me the common sentence from > developers who don't care about languages at all. Usual argument is: they > all are Turing complete, so who cares. > > 2017-10-10 11:02 GMT+02:00 webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws>: > >> Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) >> >> I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for >> themselves. >> Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is >> easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. >> >> > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish >> > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. >> >> Well, many of them kinda can. >> But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and >> there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier >> to >> do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. >> >> It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional >> programming in Python. >> Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that >> (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) >> I there much sense in it? I don't think so. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Nothing is unresovable, some problems will require a lot of more hacking sure, but Pharo VM is implemented in C (yeah I know it suppose to be smalltalk but is actually slang compiled to C) and since everything out there uses C anything out there can do live coding. You can do it in billlion diffirent ways.The question of course is then how easy to do. The answer to that is usual answer as in all things, it depends. But yes it easier indeed to do traditional level coding because lets say face, you have to be aware of the benefits of live coding and you have to really try it beforehand. Plus the idea of having to move a finger to make live coding work properly on the language of choice is less than appealing to most developers. Take for example your instance update problem, you can resolve it 2 ways, python allows you to copy the data of an instance to another in a form of a dictionary or you can exchange live methods between old a new instances in frankenstein way. You also find references and replace them real time keeping track of their object ids. I lately got an idea about a time machine live coding, live coding that does not keep alive the current data and execution but also old data and execution and allows you go backwards in time. I am inspired by implementation of backward debugging and some demos I have seen where data was visualised as it evolved with the ability to move it back in time. This is something that no language I am aware of , including Pharo offers. I am the weirdo researching live coding because after being introduced to Pharo my appetite severely increased. Pharo opened to me a world that never knew it existed. As a resulte I know learn more about language features related to live coding that I never thought it was possible. I implement my own live coding library because I want to learn more about live coding and if possible improve on it but without messing with VMs. I hope I bring some of those features back into Pharo as my giift for introducing me to such a fun way of coding. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:03 PM webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) > > I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for > themselves. > Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is > easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. > > > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish > > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. > > Well, many of them kinda can. > But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and > there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier to > do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. > > It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional > programming in Python. > Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that > (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) > I there much sense in it? I don't think so. > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

I would love to. As soon as I finish my PhD (that has become my "anguished motto") I will have time for this community endeavors again. Cheers, Offray On 10/10/17 14:02, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks offray. > I would love to have spanish subtitles. > We will have japanese subtitles > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas > <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> Probably is a English native speaker. It really amuse me the amount of >> complain about this. Is something like, please don't show me anything other >> cultures, even if I just need to turn on captions and read(!), like most of >> us did to learn English by ourselves. Whenever I have the opportunity, I see >> movies in their native language and just add subtitles, to lost less in >> translation. Yes, English is the third most spread language and is good for >> intercultural communication, because is the most spread *second* language, >> but sadly, most English native speaker don't even bother about experience >> the minimum of other language and cultures, beyond the "tourist package" and >> even hear another language seems too much effort. Fortunately there is a >> minority of native English speakers that thinks different. >> >> Thanks for the voice translation. It improves a course that was already good >> and totally doable with subtitles. >> >> Keep the good work. Cheers, >> >> Offray >> >> >> On 10/10/17 08:05, Serge Stinckwich wrote: >> >> The MOOC is completely dubbed in English this year, so you don't need >> subtitles. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:07 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: >>> >>> https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f… >>> >>> To which I responded: >>> >>> https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-… >>> >>> Some food for thought. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> >> >> >> -- >> Serge Stinckwich >> UCN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >> >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embedded PDF viewer?

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

I have been thinking about this. I don't know if you can have a VNC client inside the image that can be used to render a PDF app, but that would be my first approach, to leverage all the features in the current PDF readers. Cheers, Offray On 10/10/17 14:04, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > Hi manuel > > So far I do not know if we have this is Pharo. > I imagine that we would have to build a renderer once we will have the > PDF reader from Christian library. > > Stef > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Manuel Leuenberger > <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I want to view a PDF within Pharo. I found that Athens has a PDF canvas, but I have no idea how to use it. Is there a way to view a PDF within Pharo, so that I can scroll, zoom, click links etc. in the PDF? >> >> Cheers, >> Manuel >> >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Gour

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hello Stef, > I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. Thanks a lot! > We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english > natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy > french accents ;) I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, although not native, happily survived. :-) Moreover, I'd say that your English is charming! At least, one is sure that the real human is speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the new Mooc is going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to download the current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? Iow. my point is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, but the energy behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based on my own teaching experiences. Sincerely, Gour -- >From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Brad Selfridge

OMG!!! "sexy french accents" - you are too much!!!! ----- Brad Selfridge -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi Gour I do not know. I'm (I neeeeeeeed time) working on a starterKit to be shipped on USB and this script could be used to download during the night the mooc. I also asked Inria if I could use a bittorrent to share the mooc. I do not think that our servers have a ftp access from outside (I cannot upload file when I'm not under our vpn). I'm make a replication on a private provider but I do not know yet how to give access. I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. Stef We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy french accents ;) On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:02:31 +0200 > Stephane Ducasse > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks offray. >> I would love to have spanish subtitles. >> We will have japanese subtitles > > Is there possibility to access MOOC files via FTP which should be better > interface when one has to donwload many files (I do not use any HTTP download > manager)? > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > p.s. I don't mind about French speakers and/or English subtitles being thankful > that MOOC is available at all freely! > > -- > Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. > Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. > The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because > they have seen the truth. > > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:58 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). This is why I started to comment even the classes that we all know You see having a lovely comment on Association, Array, OrderedCollection with all the love we can is the best welcoming. > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely > useful). Totally agree. Now the good aspect is that ANY pharoers can help making such class/method comments great. It takes 5 to 10 min. And I started to add executable examples " 3 + 2 >>> 5 " > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to > Pharo acceptance. In the past we generate a javadoc but nobody looked at it. > > > > horrido wrote >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph: >> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >> 1980â1990), >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs >> why >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific >> programming. >> >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked >>>> some >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming >>>> guide >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a >>>> language. >>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for >>>> the >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >>>> even >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>> method, >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >>> more. >>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

Which reminds me a guy that I tried to convince that become: is not the same as changeClassToThatOf: but he was super smart and knew so this is written in his super smart paper and I smile still now thinking about it. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Dimitris. > > You opinion about live programming reminds me the common sentence from > developers who don't care about languages at all. Usual argument is: they > all are Turing complete, so who cares. > > 2017-10-10 11:02 GMT+02:00 webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws>: >> >> Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) >> >> I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for >> themselves. >> Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is >> easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. >> >> > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish >> > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. >> >> Well, many of them kinda can. >> But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and >> there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier >> to >> do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. >> >> It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional >> programming in Python. >> Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that >> (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) >> I there much sense in it? I don't think so. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

Webwarrior I can tell you that you made my day :) Thanks for this great testimony. Today we discuss about Pablo because he has a working system being able to upload hot code and migrate instance but also the code on the stack. We will see if we integrate it in Pharo but I want the best hot code loader ever and be able to update the updater while running the updater. Then we want to have a context aware version of this one where you can apply a change that break the UI and revert it. Stef On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 7:05 PM, webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > kilon.alios wrote >> Care to explain what difficulty you experienced in live coding with >> Python. >> Or what Pharo can do that Python canât live code wise ? Maybe I will learn >> something. > > It's funny that one of main reasons why I discovered and started using Pharo > was failure to get live coding working for Python (Jython in particular). > > And now time after time kilon.alios states that live coding in Python is > "easy" and no big deal. > > I will tell you, Pharoers, about code reloading in Python, and let you > decide for yourselves how it compares to Pharo. > > > Out of the box in Python you can execute some Python code and reload modules > with reload() function. > > What reload() does is it reads code from file (in Python each source file > corresponds to module), executes it, and replaces reference to [that module] > in current module. > From that moment, any code in current module, when referencing reloaded > module, will point to new version of it. > > All implicitly imported names will (like from foo import bar, from foo > import *, etc.) will point to old version. Also all other modules except > current will not be affected. > > There are, however, third-party libraries, that take care of it. > > But that's not all. All instances and subclasses of old classes will point > to old versions of classes. > To counter that, instead of replacing old module you could replace its > contents by newer variables/functions and patch classes by replacing their > contents. > Some third-party libraries do that. > > That's still not all. If you store references to functions/methods/classes, > that references will point to old versions. > reimport library takes care of that, but it uses implementation-specific > feature of CPython's GC, which lets you get all references to some object. > Unfortunately, it doesn't work in Jython, and probably in other alternative > Python implementations. > > But wait, what if you rename a class or function, or change its base > class(-es)? > You're out of luck. Theoretically you could handle such change if recent > code change consists of a single rename, but that's it. > > I may have missed some other edge cases and haven't talked about tools > support, but I hope you get the idea. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 10, 2017