October 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Thierry Goubier

What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + live browsing. You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to documentation and code. Note how the panes in a system browser could make for a nice URI: just look for pharo://Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: And we could even include version numbers, etc.... pharo://6.1/Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: Not very different from the github url for the pharo project relevant file... https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/development/src/Kernel.package/… Thierry 2017-10-11 17:01 GMT+02:00 Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com>: > Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really sold on > them compared with a live system and I don't think static API docs are > critical for Pharo success. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using > bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that makes > html manipulation much easier > > http://www.kilon-alios.com > > Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an awesome > Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I thought , why > not ? > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was >> working on >> >> Pharo By Example >> >> You can find those links here >> >> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample >> >> Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown >> files. >> >> If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most >> Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf >> and html with online access so you can easily link to. >> >> Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate >> links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the >> documentation. >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < >> offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> >>> The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems >>> pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and >>> GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find >>> #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books >>> for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if >>> a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find >>> little stuff in Stack Overflow). >>> >>> My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is >>> kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of >>> people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome >>> Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that >>> is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only >>> English MOOC or online static html docs). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Offray >>> >>> On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >>> >>> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your >>> entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code >>> organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have >>> to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP >>> friendly. >>> >>> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can >>> find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , >>> welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not >>> all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of >>> using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even >>> harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much >>> harder to understand in a bird eye view. >>> >>> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter >>> which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah >>> there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code >>> navigation a more comfortable task. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>> >>>> >>>> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >>>> Richard: https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is- >>>> much-harder-to-find-anything-in-the-environment-c6bdd44f6eea >>>> >>>> My 2 cents. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >>>>> Personally, I >>>>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to >>>>> keep it >>>>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >>>>> developers can >>>>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >>>>> comes >>>>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as >>>>> possible to >>>>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>>>> > >>>>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >>>>> inefficient. >>>>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and >>>>> methods are >>>>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is >>>>> just barely >>>>> > useful). >>>>> > >>>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic >>>>> way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât >>>>> well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me >>>>> this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>>> >>>>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >>>>> fact, >>>>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real >>>>> obstacle to >>>>> > Pharo acceptance. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > horrido wrote >>>>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >>>>> paragraph: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>>>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to >>>>> adapt to >>>>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>>>> >> 1980â1990), >>>>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. >>>>> Thatâs >>>>> >> why >>>>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >>>>> retired >>>>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >>>>> scientific >>>>> >> programming. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve >>>>> checked >>>>> >>>> some >>>>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now >>>>> Pharo. Of >>>>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >>>>> programming >>>>> >>>> guide >>>>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects >>>>> from a >>>>> >>>> language. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >>>>> documentation for >>>>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, >>>>> not >>>>> >>>> even >>>>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a >>>>> running >>>>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>>>> >>> method, >>>>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >>>>> very >>>>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >>>>> actually >>>>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles >>>>> that take >>>>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>>>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>>>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo >>>>> and many >>>>> >>> more. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo- >>>>> Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo- >>>>> Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really sold on them compared with a live system and I don't think static API docs are critical for Pharo success. Cheers, Offray On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using > bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that > makes html manipulation much easier > > http://www.kilon-alios.com > > Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an > awesome Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I > thought , why not ? > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Docs are available in static online html format , at least the > book I was working on > > Pharo By Example > > You can find those links here > > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample > > Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and > markdown files. > > If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where > most Pharo related official projects are built then it should have > at least pdf and html with online access so you can easily link to. > > Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar > generate links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process > linking to the documentation. > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas > <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com <mailto:offray.luna@mutabit.com>> wrote: > > The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me > seems pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code > browser and GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it > also took me little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can > vary. What I was missing was proper books for particular > domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if a > Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly > you can find little stuff in Stack Overflow). > > My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools > (Grafoscopio is kind of this), besides tools for developers. > There is a broad community of people who can be active > contributors and members of the community, welcome Pharo and > live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff > that is not already pretty similar to what they already know > (being that only English MOOC or online static html docs). > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to >> have your entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has >> serious issues with code organisation and I find the lack of >> namespaces quite inconvenient. You have to be careful how to >> name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP friendly.Â >> >> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure >> you can find implementors , senders etc but if the execution >> chain is complex , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a >> problem with most other IDEs if not all as well. Problem is >> in this case that we have the very good rule of using sort >> methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation >> even harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and >> messages but much harder to understand in a bird eye view. >> >> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of >> GTSpotter which I have praised quite a lot and I will >> continue to do so. But yeah there are more needed to be done >> in the department to make Pharo code navigation a more >> comfortable task.Â >> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz >> <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com <mailto:vitormcruz@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System >> Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. >> If you find a class or method that isnât well >> documented, write a comment and send a change >> request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if >> you find a bug you should write a test that exercises >> the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking >> system). >> >> >> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion >> made by Richard: >> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich >> <jpfersich(a)gmail.com <mailto:jpfersich@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido >> <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of >> pushback on this. Personally, I >> > think it would be very helpful to have a live >> (updatable, so as to keep it >> > current) reference page for the class library, >> something that developers can >> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of >> the power of Pharo comes >> > from the class library and we need to make it as >> accessible as possible to >> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >> > >> > Exploring the class library through the System >> Browser is very inefficient. >> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many >> classes and methods are >> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory >> remark which is just barely >> > useful). >> > >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System >> Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. >> If you find a class or method that isnât well >> documented, write a comment and send a change >> request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if >> you find a bug you should write a test that exercises >> the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking >> system). >> >> > I realize that creating a live reference page is >> not easy to do. In fact, >> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page >> is a real obstacle to >> > Pharo acceptance. >> > >> > >> > >> > horrido wrote >> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added >> the following paragraph: >> >> >> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that >> they are rather >> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and >> not willing to adapt to >> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my >> generation (circa >> >> 1980â1990), >> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different >> technologies. Thatâs >> >> why >> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years >> ago, after I had retired >> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems >> programming and FORTRAN scientific >> >> programming. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >> >> >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >> >> >>> > wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >> >>>> >> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time >> to time Iâve checked >> >>>> some >> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, >> GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of >> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a >> free, official programming >> >>>> guide >> >>>> and core library reference that any serious >> programmer expects from a >> >>>> language. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >> >>>> >> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he >> came back with: >> >>>> >> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained >> reference documentation for >> >>>> the >> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this >> one for Python >> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >> <https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html%29*> >> >>>> >> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core >> library reference, not >> >>>> even >> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to >> this complaint? >> >>> >> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is >> unique in that a running >> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ >> documentation (class, >> >>> method, >> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ >> runnable examples in a very >> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used >> to, but this is actually >> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >> >>> >> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books >> and articles that take >> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, >> http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >> >>> more. >> >>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> >> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Error loading Seaside Gettext support

by Trussardi Dario Romano

Ciao, > Ciao, > > i load correctly the Gettext support into: Pharo 6.1-64 Latest update: #60510 > > In the image was load the Seaside 3.2 > Now i do: > > (ConfigurationOfSeaside3 project version: #stable ) > load: #( 'Seaside-Gettext-Core' 'Seaside-Gettext-Examples'). > > The system erase the error: > NaturalLanguageTranslator class(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #domainRegistered: > > TextDomainManager class>>registerDomain: > [ self registerDomain: domainName ] in TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: in Block: [ self registerDomain: domainName ] > [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] in Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: in Block: [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] > Dictionary>>at:ifAbsent: > Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: > TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: > TextDomainManager class>>registerCategoryPrefix:domain: > WAGettextExample class>>register > WAGettextExample class>>initialize > Some considerations ? > > Thanks, > > Dario After the error i restart the image and the: WAGettextExample class>>initialize works well. Now i don't understand what i need to do for create the relative .pot file. The WAGettextExample export method reference the: WAGetTextExporter but is not in the system. The GetTextExporter exportTemplate create only the pharo.pot file ( ... the relative pharo.mo works fine ). Thanks for considerations, Dario

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that makes html manipulation much easier http://www.kilon-alios.com Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an awesome Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I thought , why not ? On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was > working on > > Pharo By Example > > You can find those links here > > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample > > Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown files. > > If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most > Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf > and html with online access so you can easily link to. > > Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate > links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the > documentation. > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < > offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > >> The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems >> pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and >> GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find >> #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books >> for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if >> a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find >> little stuff in Stack Overflow). >> >> My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is >> kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of >> people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome >> Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that >> is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only >> English MOOC or online static html docs). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Offray >> >> On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> >> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your >> entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code >> organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have >> to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP >> friendly. >> >> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can >> find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , >> welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not >> all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of >> using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even >> harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much >> harder to understand in a bird eye view. >> >> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter >> which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah >> there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code >> navigation a more comfortable task. >> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>> >>> >>> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >>> Richard: >>> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >>> >>> My 2 cents. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >>>> Personally, I >>>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to >>>> keep it >>>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >>>> developers can >>>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >>>> comes >>>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as >>>> possible to >>>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>>> > >>>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >>>> inefficient. >>>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods >>>> are >>>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just >>>> barely >>>> > useful). >>>> > >>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>> >>>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >>>> fact, >>>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle >>>> to >>>> > Pharo acceptance. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > horrido wrote >>>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >>>> paragraph: >>>> >> >>>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to >>>> adapt to >>>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>>> >> 1980â1990), >>>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. >>>> Thatâs >>>> >> why >>>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >>>> retired >>>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >>>> scientific >>>> >> programming. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>>> >> >>>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>>> >> >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve >>>> checked >>>> >>>> some >>>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now >>>> Pharo. Of >>>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >>>> programming >>>> >>>> guide >>>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects >>>> from a >>>> >>>> language. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >>>> documentation for >>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, >>>> not >>>> >>>> even >>>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>>> >>> method, >>>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >>>> very >>>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >>>> actually >>>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that >>>> take >>>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo >>>> and many >>>> >>> more. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Sent from: >>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> >>

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was working on Pharo By Example You can find those links here https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown files. If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf and html with online access so you can easily link to. Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the documentation. On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems > pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and > GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find > #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books > for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if > a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find > little stuff in Stack Overflow). > > My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is > kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of > people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome > Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that > is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only > English MOOC or online static html docs). > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your > entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code > organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have > to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP > friendly. > > Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can find > implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , welcome > to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not all as > well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of using sort > methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even harder. > Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much harder to > understand in a bird eye view. > > Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter > which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah > there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code > navigation a more comfortable task. > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >> >> >> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >> Richard: >> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >>> Personally, I >>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to >>> keep it >>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >>> developers can >>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >>> comes >>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as >>> possible to >>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>> > >>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >>> inefficient. >>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods >>> are >>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just >>> barely >>> > useful). >>> > >>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>> >>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >>> fact, >>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle >>> to >>> > Pharo acceptance. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > horrido wrote >>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >>> paragraph: >>> >> >>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to >>> adapt to >>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>> >> 1980â1990), >>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. >>> Thatâs >>> >> why >>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >>> retired >>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >>> scientific >>> >> programming. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>> >> >>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>> >> >>> >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve >>> checked >>> >>>> some >>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. >>> Of >>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >>> programming >>> >>>> guide >>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from >>> a >>> >>>> language. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >>> documentation for >>> >>>> the >>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>> >>>> >>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >>> >>>> even >>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>> >>> >>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>> >>> method, >>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >>> very >>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >>> actually >>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>> >>> >>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that >>> take >>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and >>> many >>> >>> more. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thanks. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> Sent from: >>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > >>> >>> >> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Ben Coman

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Christophe Demarey < christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi Vitor, > > Le 10 oct. 2017 Ã 19:00, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit > : > > Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on >> Windows. >> If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its >> home directory. >> >> Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing >> upgrades. >> http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/ >> 2014-January/091645.html >> >> >> >> Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? >> >> >> >> Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. >> We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. >> > > Nope, I donât have any option of changing Pharo launcher installation. I > double click the exe and receive a message telling me I need administrative > rights. Can this be changed? Itâs a deal breaker for those using Windows. > > For Windows, Pharo is shipped with an installer. Its only goal is to ask > you where to install Pharo. So yes, the installation directory is > configurable. > Just to be sure, here the link to the installer: http://files.pharo. > org/platform/launcher/pharo_installer-1.0.1.exe > > Hi Christophe, Can you get access to a Windows machine to try this... 1. Create a Standard User account with a password different from the default account... https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn772452(v=ws.11).aspx 2. Log in as the standard user account. 3. Without typing another password, install PharoLauncher from cheers -ben

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find little stuff in Stack Overflow). My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only English MOOC or online static html docs). Cheers, Offray On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your > entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with > code organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite > inconvenient. You have to be careful how to name your classes which > does not sound to me very OOP friendly.Â > > Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can > find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex > , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs > if not all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good > rule of using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes > navigation even harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method > and messages but much harder to understand in a bird eye view. > > Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of > GTSpotter which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do > so. But yeah there are more needed to be done in the department to > make Pharo code navigation a more comfortable task.Â > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz > <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com <mailto:vitormcruz@gmail.com>> wrote: > > I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a > fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a > class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment > and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might > add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises > the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). > > > I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by > Richard: > https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… > > My 2 cents. > > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich > <jpfersich(a)gmail.com <mailto:jpfersich@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido > <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on > this. Personally, I > > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so > as to keep it > > current) reference page for the class library, something > that developers can > > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power > of Pharo comes > > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible > as possible to > > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). > > > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is > very inefficient. > > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes > and methods are > > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark > which is just barely > > useful). > > > I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a > fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a > class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment > and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might > add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises > the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). > > > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to > do. In fact, > > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real > obstacle to > > Pharo acceptance. > > > > > > > > horrido wrote > >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the > following paragraph: > >> > >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are > rather > >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not > willing to adapt to > >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa > >> 1980â1990), > >> people didnât have a problem with trying different > technologies. Thatâs > >> why > >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after > I had retired > >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and > FORTRAN scientific > >> programming. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < > >> > >>> horrido.hobbies@ > >> > >>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: > >>>> > >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time > Iâve checked > >>>> some > >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and > now Pharo. Of > >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, > official programming > >>>> guide > >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer > expects from a > >>>> language. > >>>> > >>>> > https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > >>>> > >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back > with: > >>>> > >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference > documentation for > >>>> the > >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for > Python > >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* > <https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html%29*> > >>>> > >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library > reference, not > >>>> even > >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this > complaint? > >>> > >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that > a running > >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation > (class, > >>> method, > >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable > examples in a very > >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but > this is actually > >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. > >>> > >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and > articles that take > >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is > >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, > >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, > http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many > >>> more. > >>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Sent from: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

> Le 11 oct. 2017 Ã 12:10, stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl> a Ã©crit : > > On 06-10-17 13:26, Christophe Demarey wrote: >> For those wanted more info on how the adequate VM is computed, here is the process: >> determine the image format version >> find (and optionnaly fetch) a compatible VM (a VM able to run this image format) and run the image to get its Pharo version number >> find (and optionnaly fetch) the appropriate VM for this specific Pharo image version. Sources files are also downloaded with the VM when applicable. >> run the image with the appropriate VM > > Thanks, Christophe. > > It might be useful to regularly check for newer vms, at least the stable ones. VMs are supposed to be backwards compatible. Right. I added an issue: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues/42

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by st＠bestley.co.uk

horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely > useful). > > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to > Pharo acceptance. > I have a simple example compoared with python. I want to programatically find the version number of current instance. In Python I go to the document page e.g. <https://docs.python.org/3/> and search for version. I get a pageful of hits which I can read and find the snswer (ie sys.version) For Pharo what search do I do? You don't need to implement a seach engine Google, Bing etc can do this and with a lot more resopuirces than Pharo can do, but you need the information in a restricted place e.g. one site. and it does not need to be dynamic The first thing I do for a new technology is RTFM. > > > horrido wrote > > Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph: > > > > The problem I find with today's developers is that they are rather > > closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to > > new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa > > 1980â1990), > > people didn't have a problem with trying different technologies. That's > > why > > I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired > > from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific > > programming. > > > > > > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > >>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < > > > >> horrido.hobbies@ > > > >> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I received this comment from someone who complained: > >>> > >>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time I've checked > >>> some > >>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of > >>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming > >>> guide > >>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a > >>> language. > >>> > >>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > >>> > >>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: > >>> > >>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for > >>> the > >>> classes that form "the core library", like this one for Python > >>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* > >>> > >>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not > >>> even > >>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? > >> > >> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running > >> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, > >> method, > >> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very > >> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually > >> better and much more powerful than any alternative. > >> > >> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take > >> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is > >> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, > >> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many > >> more. > >> > -- Mark

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence & Neural Networks

by Serge Stinckwich

I would like to advertise the TechTalk for colleagues of my lab. They can join Discord using the invitation link ? http://discord.gg/Sj2rhxn On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > Dear All, > > A TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence is soon approaching. > The talk will be about implementing a neural networks in Pharo. > > It is scheduled on Tuesday 17Oct, 2017 (5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00)) > > I need your input. Which example to you want me to use? > - Data manipulation, or > - Designing a small AI for a game > > Please answer: > https://twitter.com/alexbergel/status/918084438197784578 > > Some info about the event: > https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 > https://www.facebook.com/events/133683180530368 > > Thanks Marcus Denker and the RMoD crew for their help in organizing it. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC/UY1) "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 11, 2017