October 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Embeddable Smalltalk (was: Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Ben Coman

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Herby VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: > Ben Coman wrote: > >> Nice article. I like the way you've structured it and pushed the >> "updated" angle. >> >> I feel a bit too strong a claim is laid on Pharo producing the CogVM. >> Much of the Cog + Spur + 64bit VM work was originally done for Squeak >> with Pharo riding the coat-tails of that work. Lately Pharo community >> has been involved in improving VM with hotspot optimisation with Sista >> and moving towards making Pharo embeddable.. (@Clement, is "hotspot >> > > Hi, this made me curious. I always had the problem with Amber (and, all > the rest of Smalltalks in similar vein) that it is hard to use to one-off > scripting, as it presumes existence of the not really small class library > (objects, classes, collections, etc.). This disadvantaged it IMO in the > field of "can I just embed it here and script it with a few lines?" > scenarios. > > Did you (the Pharo community that is "moving towards making Pharo > embeddable") find some way to work this around? Embeddable here is no so much for one-off scripting, but more becoming an integrated part of an application driven by an event loop of a game engine rather than the existing VM event loop. I'd expect much of the class library to be available here, so your question is orthogonal. I've seen discussion of projects for Pharo work from the command line, but I don't know their status. cheers -ben

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Yes I agree with this Pharo is a live coding BASED enviroment. For Pharo live coding is not just an easy to use feature it based its entire mentality around the idea of live coding. Even though Smalltalk borrowed live coding and image format from Lisp we are more "pure" in that regard even compared to Lisp. But one thing to note here is that live coding is not really that useful when used always. At least for me I rely a lot on it for debugging and experimenting. But when I work based on a plan , or code just works I do not care so much about it. So my workflow in the end is semi-live coding because I dont feel I need live coding 24/7 to be super productive. Of course that creates some barriers in the end when tools are not made to work 24/7 on a live coding context. To that extend Pharo is definetly superior and a true live coding enviroment. You are suprised that you can do live coding in C++ but I was trully shocked. My saga to do live coding in C++ started as a joke, something to use to mock C++ ugliness and weakness. But oh boy it did slap it back to my face. The process is again simple, you wrap eveything inside a main loop,and call in this loop functions (C has no objects obvious) or methods if you use C++ from DLLs. Those DLLs obviously contain 99.9% of your code. Because a DLL can be reloaded it allows you not to stop executing and replace code on the fly. The main loop is wrapped inside an exception to make sure the an error will never crash your application, C/C++ exceptions are more powerful than Pharo live coding in that regard because in Pharo if you do anything bad with UFFI and crash it , it will crash for sure. If you keep the DLL small and you use tons of small dlls your compile times will be almost instantenous. You can also with very view lines detect date signature change in source file and trigger background compilation. Again few lines of code. The last mountain is live state, in this case the executable pass a single pointer and instead of the executable handling the memory its actually the dlls that handle it but the executable because it cannot crash or exit will keep the live state running. You can also use memory mapped file to store live state as they perform pure memory dumps. All in all you will end up with 100 lines of code that can be wrapped into a library and reused in the next project with zero setup. Its an one time pain. Will I would recommend C++ over Pharo for live coding .... helll no.... C++ obviously misses a hugely important live coding ingredient which is reflection. We do live coding because we want to interact with those objects ask questions about what is going on and why our code does not work as intended However Python has no such limitation following a very similar design to Smalltalk and being much more powerful language than C++. Python follow very closely the Smalltalk paradigm even though there is not a single mention of Smalltalk , anywhere in the Python community or of live coding. Live coding in C++ has become a huge deal in game development mainly because game development tend to want to change things on the fly and games are so big with extremely long compile times. Unreal has made a huge deal over its ability to hot reload C++ code in its editor , though I do not like its approach so much. Bottom line is yes its easy and simple to do live coding in other languages, not recommended so much in C++ because of its static compiled nature and lack of reflection but for dynamic language like Python it can come pretty close and I speak from experience. At least I have not found something in Python that made me wish I was live coding in Pharo so far, but then yes I still think its better to have a full blown live coding. Also from my limited understanding I have figured out that pretty much every language out there allows for reloading code which is pretty much a very large requirement for live coding. So yes you can live code to an extend, lesser in languages like C++ , more so in language like Python, Ruby etc. Can you get the Pharo experience ? In a dynamic language with the creation of a live coding library you could get pretty close but never exactly the same. Pharo still is the undisputed king of live coding. Why live coding is not a huge thing in coding in general, I am willing to bet it has more to do with coder mentality than language limitation. When you are used to "dead code" workflow it difficult to switch. I struggle a lot to get use to the live coding workflow of Pharo because I had to rewire my brain. But in the end you cannot avoid live coding, there will be always scenarios you would want to change things on the fly, reload code, store live state etc. In the end it more a coder flaw than it is a language flaw. I know we love to blame languages for our mistakes. But in our back of our head we all know we debate over languages that we barely use only 0.000001% of their true potential. We are too lazy and sometimes we need someone to slam our face to the truth to actually see it. And by we I dont mean the Pharo community but human nature by itself. That's exactly what Pharo did for me that motivated me exploring live coding in other languages. If it was not for Pharo I would still be doing the old slow method of correct, compile, restart and repeat till you hate yourself. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:57 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > My point is that indeed you can do with EASE live coding in a numerous > languages, at least to my experience. I have tried only Python and C/C++. > > Until I came upon this thread, I never knew you could do live coding in > Python and C/C++. And I was a professional C/C++ programmer for over 15 > years! > > It is certainly a well-kept secret. I have found very little information on > the web about doing live coding in these languages (in fact, none). This > leads me to believe that the vast majority of Python and C/C++ developers > don't know about, or don't do, live coding. > > Whether it's "easy" is rather subjective. I suspect it's not as easy nor as > convenient as in Pharo. If it were, then live coding ought to be much more > prevalent in the Python and C/C++ communities. After all, what developer > doesn't want to improve their productivity or increase their velocity of > development? > > The key differentiator here, I think, is that live coding is baked into > Pharo/Smalltalk, thus making it natural to use. It is not natural for > Python > and C/C++ programmers. It would be difficult to convince the IT industry to > adopt live coding en masse. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Ben Coman

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Just starting pharolauncher on windows still does not work (if you put it > into the default "program" folder). > On start, it tries to create a local direcitory "pharo-local" and does not > have the permission to do so. > You need to start it with admin-rights. > Why are we making it harder for Windows users in corporate environments by requiring them to have admin-rights they often won't have, while in Linux PharoLancher is installed into user folders? Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing upgrades. http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-January/091… Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? What reason is there not to? cheers -ben > >> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Christophe Demarey < >> christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gabriel, >>> >>> Le 6 oct. 2017 Ã 15:48, Gabriel Cotelli <g.cotelli(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : >>> >>> I've tried it on Linux, and after the download has finished it cannot >>> launch a Pharo 6.1 image. Find attached the PharoDebug.log >>> >>> Seems it's searching for the sources file in a wrong location. >>> *Pharo cannot locate the sources file named >>> /home/gcotelli/Pharo/pharo-launcher/bin/lib/pharo/5.0-201707201942/PharoV60.sources.* >>> >>> I have wondered for a while if sources files should searched for up the directory hierarchy looking for a "/sources" folder to minimize the number of copies needed. cheers -ben

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FileReference#entries caching?

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Steven R. Baker <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> wrote: > Is it cached or something? How do I guarantee that I'm *definitely* > getting the current state of the directory on disk? This looks extremely strange, I've never seen that inspecting files/directories would be somehow "out of sync" with the disk, because it is always asking the disk. Should I not even be using FileReference for this? > If you are loading png icons into Pharo, you can consider using https://github.com/peteruhnak/IconFactory/ instead (shameless self promotion :) ) Peter

Oct. 7, 2017

Futures, in Scale (was: Re: Embeddable Smalltalk (was: Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk))

by Herby VojÄÃk

Hi, I have looked at Scale b/c of different question, and I see it uses futures. I'd like to ask if those futures are one-off, or is there any consensus on how futures should look like in Pharo. The reason I ask is b/c Amber already has something like that - Promises, which do not use the native JS API directly (though it is inspired), but do have an API of their own; and since those concepts seems to be similar (or maybe are the same, just called differently), if the API used shouldn't be sort-of standardized / used the same way in all occasions. Herby P.S.: Including state-of-the-art Promises.st from Amber master branch to get a picture: Smalltalk createPackage: 'Kernel-Promises'! Object subclass: #Promise instanceVariableNames: '' package: 'Kernel-Promises'! !Promise class methodsFor: 'composites'! all: aCollection "Returns a Promise resolved with results of sub-promises." <inlineJS: 'return Promise.all($recv(aCollection)._asArray())'> ! any: aCollection "Returns a Promise resolved with first result of sub-promises." <inlineJS: 'return Promise.race($recv(aCollection)._asArray())'> ! ! !Promise class methodsFor: 'instance creation'! forBlock: aBlock "Returns a Promise that is resolved with the value of aBlock, and rejected if error happens while evaluating aBlock." ^ self new then: aBlock ! new "Returns a dumb Promise resolved with nil." <inlineJS: 'return Promise.resolve()'> ! new: aBlock "Returns a Promise that is eventually resolved or rejected. Pass a block that is called with one argument, model. You should call model value: ... to resolve the promise and model signal: ... to reject the promise. If error happens during run of the block, promise is rejected with that error as well." <inlineJS: 'return new Promise(function (resolve, reject) { var model = {value: resolve, signal: reject}; aBlock._value_(model); })'> ! signal: anObject "Returns a Promise rejected with anObject." <inlineJS: 'return $recv(anObject)._in_(function (x) {return Promise.reject(x)})'> ! value: anObject "Returns a Promise resolved with anObject." <inlineJS: 'return $recv(anObject)._in_(function (x) {return Promise.resolve(x)})'> ! ! Trait named: #TThenable package: 'Kernel-Promises'! !TThenable methodsFor: 'promises'! catch: aBlock <inlineJS: 'return self.then(null, function (err) {return $core.seamless(function () { return aBlock._value_(err); })})'> ! on: aClass do: aBlock <inlineJS: 'return self.then(null, function (err) {return $core.seamless(function () { if (err._isKindOf_(aClass)) return aBlock._value_(err); else throw err; })})'> ! on: aClass do: aBlock catch: anotherBlock ^ (self on: aClass do: aBlock) catch: anotherBlock ! then: aBlockOrArray "Accepts a block or array of blocks. Each of blocks in the array or the singleton one is used in .then call to a promise, to accept a result and transform it to the result for the next one. In case a block has more than one argument and result is an array, first n-1 elements of the array are put into additional arguments beyond the first. The first argument always contains the result as-is." <inlineJS: ' var array = Array.isArray(aBlockOrArray) ? aBlockOrArray : [aBlockOrArray]; return array.reduce(function (soFar, aBlock) { return soFar.then(typeof aBlock === "function" && aBlock.length > 1 ? function (result) {return $core.seamless(function () { if (Array.isArray(result)) { return aBlock._valueWithPossibleArguments_([result].concat(result.slice(0, aBlock.length-1))); } else { return aBlock._value_(result); } })} : function (result) {return $core.seamless(function () { return aBlock._value_(result); })} ); }, self)'> ! then: aBlockOrArray catch: anotherBlock ^ (self then: aBlockOrArray) catch: anotherBlock ! then: aBlockOrArray on: aClass do: aBlock ^ (self then: aBlockOrArray) on: aClass do: aBlock ! then: aBlockOrArray on: aClass do: aBlock catch: anotherBlock ^ ((self then: aBlockOrArray) on: aClass do: aBlock) catch: anotherBlock ! ! Promise setTraitComposition: {TThenable} asTraitComposition! ! ! phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > https://github.com/guillep/Scale <https://github.com/guillep/Scale> is > quite cool for quick scripts on *nix. > > Now for embeddable, yes it would help. Bootstrapping will be helpful but > the current main issue is the VM interpret loop that is in the current VMs. > > It is not an intrinsic problem. Telepharo is also a great step to enable > that to exist. > > Phil > > On Oct 7, 2017 13:05, "Herby VojÄÃk" <herby(a)mailbox.sk > <mailto:herby@mailbox.sk>> wrote: > > Ben Coman wrote: > > Nice article. I like the way you've structured it and pushed the > "updated" angle. > > I feel a bit too strong a claim is laid on Pharo producing the > CogVM. > Much of the Cog + Spur + 64bit VM work was originally done for > Squeak > with Pharo riding the coat-tails of that work. Lately Pharo > community > has been involved in improving VM with hotspot optimisation with > Sista > and moving towards making Pharo embeddable.. (@Clement, is "hotspot > > > Hi, this made me curious. I always had the problem with Amber (and, > all the rest of Smalltalks in similar vein) that it is hard to use > to one-off scripting, as it presumes existence of the not really > small class library (objects, classes, collections, etc.). This > disadvantaged it IMO in the field of "can I just embed it here and > script it with a few lines?" scenarios. > > Did you (the Pharo community that is "moving towards making Pharo > embeddable") find some way to work this around? > > cheers -ben > > > Herby > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Deploying on Linux with LibC version < 2.15

by phil＠highoctane.be

I would rather qualify Ubuntu as hell when deploying large setups of machines that have to be kept in working order for a long while. We should give top notch support for RHEL if we want to be relevant in spaces like Hadoop for example as the reference platform is RHEL/CentOS. Phil On Oct 6, 2017 16:20, "Andrew Glynn" <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > There's a reason it's referred to by numerous developers as R-HELL. > > Andrew Glynn > > -----Original Message----- > > *Date*: Thu, 5 Oct 2017 21:46:20 +0800 > *Subject*: Re: [Pharo-users] Deploying on Linux with LibC version < 2.15 > *To*: bruce.oneel(a)pckswarms.ch, Any question about pharo is welcome < > pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > <Any%20question%20about%20pharo%20is%20welcome%20%3cpharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org%3e> > > > Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > > > *From*: Holger Freyther <holger(a)freyther.de > <Holger%20Freyther%20%3cholger(a)freyther.de%3e>> > > > On 5. Oct 2017, at 18:08, Bruce O'Neel <bruce.oneel(a)pckswarms.ch> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Hi! > > > > > Well, our redhat 6.9 systems have 2.12, so, that qualifies. > > And yes, we still have RedHat 6, and 6.9 was released only 6 months ago! It will finish extended support in a mind-blowing 7 more years in 2024. > > Redhat 5, still supported for another 3 years till 2020 has glibc 2.5. > > > > > for a brief moment you really scared me. I thought you referred to RedHat Linux 6 which was released in 1999 but you are referring to Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL). > > As it turns out we have "latest" (as soon as a commit is made to pharo-vm.git) and hand curated "stable" (hand created source tarballs, rebuilt from a git commit of opensmalltalk-vm) for RHEL6 and CentOS 6. > > CentOS 6.x: > > # Add the repo > $ yum-config-manager --add-repo http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/devel:/languages:/pharo:/latest/C… > > OR (for stable): > http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/devel:/languages:/pharo:/latest/C… > > # Install 32bit packages (with X11 dependency for *-ui or not) > > $ yum install pharo6-32-ui.i686 or pharo6-32.i386 > > # Install 64bit packages > > $ yum install pharo6-64-ui.x86_64 pharo6-64.x86_64 > > > > > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embeddable Smalltalk (was: Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by phil＠highoctane.be

https://github.com/guillep/Scale is quite cool for quick scripts on *nix. Now for embeddable, yes it would help. Bootstrapping will be helpful but the current main issue is the VM interpret loop that is in the current VMs. It is not an intrinsic problem. Telepharo is also a great step to enable that to exist. Phil On Oct 7, 2017 13:05, "Herby VojÄÃk" <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: Ben Coman wrote: > Nice article. I like the way you've structured it and pushed the > "updated" angle. > > I feel a bit too strong a claim is laid on Pharo producing the CogVM. > Much of the Cog + Spur + 64bit VM work was originally done for Squeak > with Pharo riding the coat-tails of that work. Lately Pharo community > has been involved in improving VM with hotspot optimisation with Sista > and moving towards making Pharo embeddable.. (@Clement, is "hotspot > Hi, this made me curious. I always had the problem with Amber (and, all the rest of Smalltalks in similar vein) that it is hard to use to one-off scripting, as it presumes existence of the not really small class library (objects, classes, collections, etc.). This disadvantaged it IMO in the field of "can I just embed it here and script it with a few lines?" scenarios. Did you (the Pharo community that is "moving towards making Pharo embeddable") find some way to work this around? cheers -ben > Herby

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] What does RMoD stand for?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 7 Oct 2017, at 13:06, Rene Paul Mages (ramix) <pharo(a)rmages.com> wrote: > > > > Le 07/10/2017 Ã 12:59, horrido a Ã©crit : >> It is bizarre. Nowhere on the web can I find any reference to what INRIA's >> *RMoD* acronym stands for. > > Please try this request : > > https://tinyurl.com/INRIA-Rmod But it is strange that their main page does not say (AFAICS). It is something like Research into Modular Systems, but I am just guessing ;-) > -- > Amicalement. > Rene Paul Mages ( GnuPG_key 1024D/2CC455D9 ) > http://www.linux-azur.org/ramix > http://blog.pharo.fr > http://nosoftwarepatents.wikidot.com > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] What does RMoD stand for?

by Rene Paul Mages (ramix)

Le 07/10/2017 Ã 12:59, horrido a Ã©critÂ : > It is bizarre. Nowhere on the web can I find any reference to what INRIA's > *RMoD* acronym stands for. Please try this request : https://tinyurl.com/INRIA-Rmod -- Amicalement. Rene Paul Mages ( GnuPG_key 1024D/2CC455D9 ) http://www.linux-azur.org/ramix http://blog.pharo.fr http://nosoftwarepatents.wikidot.com

Oct. 7, 2017

Embeddable Smalltalk (was: Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Herby VojÄÃk

Ben Coman wrote: > Nice article. I like the way you've structured it and pushed the > "updated" angle. > > I feel a bit too strong a claim is laid on Pharo producing the CogVM. > Much of the Cog + Spur + 64bit VM work was originally done for Squeak > with Pharo riding the coat-tails of that work. Lately Pharo community > has been involved in improving VM with hotspot optimisation with Sista > and moving towards making Pharo embeddable.. (@Clement, is "hotspot Hi, this made me curious. I always had the problem with Amber (and, all the rest of Smalltalks in similar vein) that it is hard to use to one-off scripting, as it presumes existence of the not really small class library (objects, classes, collections, etc.). This disadvantaged it IMO in the field of "can I just embed it here and script it with a few lines?" scenarios. Did you (the Pharo community that is "moving towards making Pharo embeddable") find some way to work this around? > cheers -ben Herby

Oct. 7, 2017

FileReference#entries caching?

by Steven R. Baker

Heya folks, I'm loading some PNG icons from disk, and I'm noticing some weirdness with FileReference#entries. When I inspect: '/home/srbaker/Projects/FocusFrog/icons' asFileReference entries it gives me an Array of size one, containing the refernce to the only file there. Then I delete the file, the same thing gives an array of size zero. But then when I fill the directory with a bunch of icons (240, to be exact), and inspect that line again I get zero. Eventually it gets the right answer. Is it cached or something? How do I guarantee that I'm *definitely* getting the current state of the directory on disk? Should I not even be using FileReference for this? Thanks! -Steven

Oct. 7, 2017

What does RMoD stand for?

by horrido

It is bizarre. Nowhere on the web can I find any reference to what INRIA's *RMoD* acronym stands for. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 7, 2017

Fun with UI Avatars

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

I came across https://ui-avatars.com, a web service that creates avatar images based on some parameters. >From Pharo, the shortest invocation would be something like ZnEasy getPng: 'https://ui-avatars.com/api?name=Albert+Einstein&size=128&background=0D8ABC&…'. Making use of the full builder interface of ZnClient that would look more like ZnClient new https; host: 'ui-avatars.com'; addPath: #api; queryAt: #name put: 'Albert Einstein'; queryAt: #size put: 128; queryAt: #color put: 'FFF'; queryAt: #background put: '0D8ABC'; queryAt: #rounded put: true; accept: ZnMimeType imagePng; enforceHttpSuccess: true; enforceAcceptContentType: true; contentReader: [ :entity | ImageReadWriter formFromStream: entity readStream ]; beOneShot; get. Anyway, it is cool to have an environment that makes this kind of experimentation so much fun. It is probably easy to implement this avatar image generation directly in Pharo ... Sven

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by horrido

> My point is that indeed you can do with EASE live coding in a numerous languages, at least to my experience. I have tried only Python and C/C++. Until I came upon this thread, I never knew you could do live coding in Python and C/C++. And I was a professional C/C++ programmer for over 15 years! It is certainly a well-kept secret. I have found very little information on the web about doing live coding in these languages (in fact, none). This leads me to believe that the vast majority of Python and C/C++ developers don't know about, or don't do, live coding. Whether it's "easy" is rather subjective. I suspect it's not as easy nor as convenient as in Pharo. If it were, then live coding ought to be much more prevalent in the Python and C/C++ communities. After all, what developer doesn't want to improve their productivity or increase their velocity of development? The key differentiator here, I think, is that live coding is baked into Pharo/Smalltalk, thus making it natural to use. It is not natural for Python and C/C++ programmers. It would be difficult to convince the IT industry to adopt live coding en masse. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Deploying on Linux with LibC version < 2.15

by Dimitris Chloupis

Why use a special Pharo VM when you can use LibC via UFFI from inside the image ? UFFI even offers partial wrapper to LibC. We prefer afterall to move things outside the VM and inside the image as much as we can to offers us a greater deal of flexibility. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:45 PM Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Le 05/10/2017 Ã 15:46, Holger Freyther a Ã©crit : > > > > Hi! > > > > > > for a brief moment you really scared me. I thought you referred to > RedHat Linux 6 which was released in 1999 but you are referring to Red Hat > Enterprise Linux (RHEL). > > > > As it turns out we have "latest" (as soon as a commit is made to > pharo-vm.git) and hand curated "stable" (hand created source tarballs, > rebuilt from a git commit of opensmalltalk-vm) for RHEL6 and CentOS 6. > > > > CentOS 6.x: > > > > # Add the repo > > $ yum-config-manager --add-repo > http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/devel:/languages:/pharo:/latest/C… > > > > OR (for stable): > > > > > http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/devel:/languages:/pharo:/latest/C… > > > > # Install 32bit packages (with X11 dependency for *-ui or not) > > > > $ yum install pharo6-32-ui.i686 or pharo6-32.i386 > > > > # Install 64bit packages > > > > $ yum install pharo6-64-ui.x86_64 pharo6-64.x86_64 > > > > > > Hi, > > Maybe the instructions for CentOS and RHEL could be added to the linux > download page of pharo.org? > > > -- > Cyril Ferlicot > https://ferlicot.fr > > http://www.synectique.eu > 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, > 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Equals and HashCode Builder

by Noury Gmail

Hi, I have developed few years ago a trait-based solution to make it easy to deal with equality. By default, instances of the same class with equal IVs are equal + have the same hash code. You can customize the list of IVs to compare, which is handy in case of IVs that store cache values. All you have to do is to use the TEquality in your class. The code + tests are here http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~CAR/ReusableBricks/packages/Equals This is part of the "ReusableBricks" repo that gather packages we're using it in different projects in my team. And it works fine. I'd love to have this integrated in Pharo. Note : I no longer receive mailing-lists emails, because I can't handle all the traffic. We can continue the conversation on Discord Noury > > > On 06 Oct 2017, at 18:31, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Contact noury because I do not remember. > But having a little builder is also nice. > > On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Stephane >> >> "Vitor why don't you take it as a small project to propose a solution for >> Pharo." >> >> I will try :) I like the idea of using a Trait. >> >> >> Em 6 de out de 2017 05:01, "Stephane Ducasse" <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> >> escreveu: >> >> Here is what I extracted from older emails >> >> From David Allouche in Pharo-dev to see if >> The ==hash== method is used in Pharo to separate objects in >> bucket-based data structures. >> >> >> !! Property >> >> It must have one required property which is required data integrity: >> >> !!!! A. >> Objects that are equal according to ==\=== must have equal hashes. >> >> >> It should have two desirable properties that are required to support >> the algorithmic assumptions of bucket-based data structures: >> >> !!!! B. >> Objects that are not equal should have different hashes. Ideally, the >> probability of hash collision should by 1/N where N is the size of >> hash value space. >> >> !!!! C. The hash values should spread as much as possible over their >> value space. For example: ProtoObject>>#identityHash. >> >> >> >> >> How these two desirable properties can be implemented depends on the >> actual distribution of the values used to compute the hash. >> >> An object can safely use XOR hashing if its instance variables are all >> different objects that already provide a hash method with these two >> properties. >> >> @@todo check following sentence because the use of singleton is obscure >> >> For example, an object whose behaviour is defined by several of >> singleton delegates of different classes that do not override >> Object>>#hash. >> >> But if the instance variables are not guaranteed to have those >> properties, it is necessary to more thoroughly "mix the bits". For >> example the method ==hash== of ==SequenceableCollection== illustrates >> this point. >> >> >> [[[ >> SequenceableCollection >> hash >> | hash | >> hash := self species hash. >> 1 to: self size do: [:i | hash := (hash + (self at: i) hash) hashMultiply]. >> ^ hash >> ]]] >> >> >> The mixing of the bits is done by the combination of addition and >> ==hashMultiply==. The value of ==species hash== does not need to be >> processed by ==hashMultiply==, because it is probably computed by the >> method =identityHash== of ==ProtoObject==, and that already provides >> property C. >> >> !!! When we should not use XOR >> >> ==LayoutFrame== is a particularly good example of a data structure >> that should not use XOR hashing. Its instance variables provide none >> of the required properties: >> >> - ==SmallInteger>>hash== is just ==^self==. >> - In addition, common ==LayoutFrame== instances tend to use pairs of >> identical values in their instance variables. Like ==0@0 corner: >> 1@1==, or ==Margin fromNumber: 10==. >> >> A good hash function for LayoutFrame needs to: >> >> - Get hashes for each instance variable that provides properties A and B. >> - Combine them in a way that is order-sensitive (to maintain property >> B) and that does some extra mixing (to provide property C). >> >> Now, we can assume that common values for the instance variables will >> be instances of ==SmallInteger==, ==Float==, or ==Fraction==. >> >> You can see in ==Fraction>>hash==, that a comment mentions the >> assumption that the fraction is already reduced, that is what makes it >> acceptable to use bitXor. >> >> The hash of ==SmallInteger== does provide properties A and B, but not >> property C. The hash of ==Float== is harder to understand, but tests >> show that it provides distinct values for 0.5, 0.25 and 0.125. So it >> hopefully provides B for the range of values of interest to >> ==LayoutFrame==. >> >> Another class that has similar hashing constraints to ==LayoutFrame== >> is ==Point==. Its ==hash== method is: >> >> [[[ >> Point >> hash >> "Hash is reimplemented because = is implemented." >> ^(x hash hashMultiply + y hash) hashMultiply >> ]]] >> >> It does not include species in the computation, which is less than >> ideal because it favours collisions with objects of different species >> that have a similar content and a the same hash algorithm. >> >> Finally, it is probably not necessary or useful to use the accessors >> to get to the instance variables. >> >> So a good implementation for LayoutFrame is >> >> [[[ >> LayoutFrame >> hash >> | hash | >> hash := self species hash >> hash := (hash + leftFraction hash) hashMultiply >> hash := (hash + leftOffset hash) hashMultiply >> hash := (hash + topFraction hash) hashMultiply >> hash := (hash + topOffset hash) hashMultiply >> hash := (hash + rightFraction hash) hashMultiply >> hash := (hash + rightOffset hash) hashMultiply >> hash := (hash + bottomFraction hash) hashMultiply >> hash := (hash + bottomOffset hash) hashMultiply >> ^ hash >> ]]] >> >> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Stephane Ducasse >> <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Noury also proposed a trait to avoid to systematically have to implement >>> hash. >>> Vitor why don't you take it as a small project to propose a solution for >>> Pharo. >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> Yes, canEqual implementation also make #= be commutative. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2017-10-02 17:30 GMT+02:00 Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com>: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2017-10-02 17:13 GMT+02:00 Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com>: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am sorry, not species, but #isKindOf istead of #= to compare >>>>>>> classes. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It is bad idea. #= should be transitive. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Oh, I used wrong word, shame on me :). I tried to say commutative. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> How you will generate it with isKindOf: logic? You need to know common >>>>>> parent. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also I not remember cases where I was needed two instances of different >>>>>> classes to be equal. >>>>>> And I can imaging the problems which it will lead to. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Denis Kudriashov >>>>>>> <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2017-10-02 16:37 GMT+02:00 Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Two questions/comments about the generated code: >>>>>>>>> 1. #= >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> self class = anObject class "should compare #species >>>>>>>>> instead?" >>>>>>>>> ifFalse: [ ^ false ]. >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> Typically, I've seen #species instead of #class in the guard >>>>>>>>> statement. >>>>>>>>> Should we change it to that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I doubt that it is important for domain classes. Because I never saw >>>>>>>> the user of #species which is not a kind of Collection. And for >>>>>>>> collections >>>>>>>> this refactoring is not valid anyway. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2. #hash >>>>>>>>> ^ var1 hash bitXor: (var2 hash bitXor: var3 hash) >>>>>>>>> Is this implementation always safe? It's what I usually hand roll >>>>>>>>> based on >>>>>>>>> what I've seen, but Andres Valloud wrote a whole (large) book on >>>>>>>>> hashing, so >>>>>>>>> I've always wondered if I was missing somethingâ¦ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Sean >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> >>

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

Hi Nicolai, > Le 7 oct. 2017 Ã 09:38, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > Just starting pharolauncher on windows still does not work (if you put it into the default "program" folder). > On start, it tries to create a local direcitory "pharo-local" and does not have the permission to do so. > You need to start it with admin-rights. A Pharo image needs write permission in the image folder to store image sessions (epicea) as well as other image data (package cache, play-cache, changes file, etc.) Maybe we should disable Epicea and it could work in a read only environment? For now, either you can start it with admin rights or you install Pharo Launcher in a user folder. Regards, Christophe

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Deploying on Linux with LibC version < 2.15

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

Le 05/10/2017 Ã 15:46, Holger Freyther a Ã©critÂ : > > Hi! > > > for a brief moment you really scared me. I thought you referred to RedHat Linux 6 which was released in 1999 but you are referring to Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL). > > As it turns out we have "latest" (as soon as a commit is made to pharo-vm.git) and hand curated "stable" (hand created source tarballs, rebuilt from a git commit of opensmalltalk-vm) for RHEL6 and CentOS 6. > > CentOS 6.x: > > # Add the repo > $ yum-config-manager --add-repo http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/devel:/languages:/pharo:/latest/C… > > OR (for stable): > > http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/devel:/languages:/pharo:/latest/C… > > # Install 32bit packages (with X11 dependency for *-ui or not) > > $ yum install pharo6-32-ui.i686 or pharo6-32.i386 > > # Install 64bit packages > > $ yum install pharo6-64-ui.x86_64 pharo6-64.x86_64 > > Hi, Maybe the instructions for CentOS and RHEL could be added to the linux download page of pharo.org? -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] using mocketry to mock subcall

by Denis Kudriashov

Hi Peter. You should stub instance instead of class: s := Something new. s stub askFor... 7 Ð¾ÐºÑ. 2017 Ð³. 9:18 Ð¿Ð¾Ð»ÑÐ·Ð¾Ð²Ð°ÑÐµÐ»Ñ "Peter UhnÃ¡k" <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð»: > Hi, > > maybe I am missing something fundamental, because this seems like an > obvious scenario > > I have a class Something with two methods > > Something>>askForName > ^ UIManager default request: 'Name' > > Something>>name > ^ self askForName , ' suffix' > > Now I want to mock out askForName, so I can run it automatically in > tests... > > I've tried just stubbing it... > > SomethingTest>>testRenameStub > Something stub askForName willReturn: 'new'. > Something new name should be: 'new suffix' > > however it still opens the window to ask for the name, so the original > method is being called. > > Right now I have to stub it with metalinks, which doesn't play well with > some tools (hapao) > > SomethingTest>>testRenameMeta > | link newName | > link := MetaLink new > metaObject: [ 'new' ]; > control: #instead. > (Something >> #askForName) ast link: link. > [ newName := Something new name ] > ensure: [ link uninstall ]. > self assert: newName equals: 'new suffix' > > Thanks, > Peter > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

The dicussion is about Pharo's live coding and OOP compared to other languages. IF you look at all my threads you will see I ALWAYS mention Python , Blender , Unreal for relevant topics. I do not remember hi jackig a thread with random remarks just for the shake of mentioning those things. Plus 99% of the times I mention Python is about Atlas , my library for using Python libraries from inside Pharo. Atlas is a "trojan horse" for Pharo to invade Python projects. Also I have been very clear that I consider C++ an abomination syntax wise and Python weaker than Smalltalk, language wise.Mainly because of Smalltalk's minimal syntax and of course offering live coding outside the box with no special setup from the coder. My point is that indeed you can do with EASE live coding in a numerous languages, at least to my experience. I have tried only Python and C/C++. Is it as easy or as flexible as Pharo ? I do not know because live coding as you know is about workflow and we dont code all the same way. For example I was never comfortable with coding solely from inside Pharo debugger as some of you are doing. I am more a Class Browser guy and I rarely use Workspace/Playground/REPL as well. My questions were sincere even though I was sarcastic because I always want to learn more about live coding and things I do not know about OOP. My sarcasm was an effort to be funny not to be rude. I am also certain that many experienced coders coming from other language will ask the same questions as well. What Pharo can give me OO wise that I cannot get in my X language ? What exactly is live coding for Pharo ? Is doing X things in that Y language live coding or is it something else ? What's the real purpose of message passing ? How it benefits me compared to just using method calls ? I am suprised that there has not been an article about live coding workflows. I think it could greatly benefit Pharo to demostrate its uniqueness. People prefer to be shown that something is better than being told. Most people also not bother at all coming to the mailing list and ask questions, they will ignore things they dont understand and carry on. So its not important to say that Pharo special but why Pharo is special and after 5 year I feel will still struggle in this area, not because of the fault of the community but because live coding and OOP can be an extremely wide field that you can easily get lost into. We have also to be fair with othe programming languages, respect them, to the degree they deserve our respect and not exaggerate our claims because that harms Pharo reputation. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:50 AM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Your contribution to Pharo are much appreciated. And indeed you did not > directly say anything negative. > > But you have to agree that you often discuss about Python, C++, Blender, > ... in mailing lists that are not for that purpose. You are absolutely free > to do whatever you want and to give your opinions freely, but this is not > the right place. > > > On 7 Oct 2017, at 10:42, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > I agree, ignore that crazy dude that he is all talk and non sense > excluding the fact the original article uses a graphic he made with love > for Pharo and with over 5 years of active contribution to Pharo > documentation and libraries. OR the fact that he said nothing negative > about Pharo in this thread. > > > > Or the fact that he said that is enternal greatful for Pharo introducing > him to the art and fun of live coding. What's more negative than that , > right ? > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Stephane Ducasse < > stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi sven > > > > Do the same than me, trash this thread and let us focus on making Pharo > better. > > This is far better productive and energy positive. > > > > Stef > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > wrote: > > > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as > Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live coding. > > > > > > Come on. > > > > > >> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > >> > > >> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst > in OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two > behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > > >> > > >> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because > I currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure > it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines > of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least > Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need > even less. > > >> > > >> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is > the real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > > >> > > >> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ > including using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported > by both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS > has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a > lot of essential functionality. > > >> > > >> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much > utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > > >> > > >> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template > system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that > syntax..... yiaks !!! > > >> > > >> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and > opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding > an other way ever again. > > >> > > >> I really hope that we take this further though. > > >> > > >> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > > >> < > https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c… > > > > >> > > >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to > improve > > >> the impact of the article. > > >> > > >> Thanks. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Your contribution to Pharo are much appreciated. And indeed you did not directly say anything negative. But you have to agree that you often discuss about Python, C++, Blender, ... in mailing lists that are not for that purpose. You are absolutely free to do whatever you want and to give your opinions freely, but this is not the right place. > On 7 Oct 2017, at 10:42, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree, ignore that crazy dude that he is all talk and non sense excluding the fact the original article uses a graphic he made with love for Pharo and with over 5 years of active contribution to Pharo documentation and libraries. OR the fact that he said nothing negative about Pharo in this thread. > > Or the fact that he said that is enternal greatful for Pharo introducing him to the art and fun of live coding. What's more negative than that , right ? > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi sven > > Do the same than me, trash this thread and let us focus on making Pharo better. > This is far better productive and energy positive. > > Stef > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live coding. > > > > Come on. > > > >> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > >> > >> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need even less. > >> > >> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > >> > >> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of essential functionality. > >> > >> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > >> > >> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... yiaks !!! > >> > >> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding an other way ever again. > >> > >> I really hope that we take this further though. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > >> <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c…> > >> > >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve > >> the impact of the article. > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >> > > > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

I agree, ignore that crazy dude that he is all talk and non sense excluding the fact the original article uses a graphic he made with love for Pharo and with over 5 years of active contribution to Pharo documentation and libraries. OR the fact that he said nothing negative about Pharo in this thread. Or the fact that he said that is enternal greatful for Pharo introducing him to the art and fun of live coding. What's more negative than that , right ? On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:14 AM Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi sven > > Do the same than me, trash this thread and let us focus on making Pharo > better. > This is far better productive and energy positive. > > Stef > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > wrote: > > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as > Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live coding. > > > > Come on. > > > >> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in > OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths > can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > >> > >> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I > currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure > it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines > of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least > Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need > even less. > >> > >> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the > real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > >> > >> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including > using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both > the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an > image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of > essential functionality. > >> > >> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much > utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > >> > >> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template > system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that > syntax..... yiaks !!! > >> > >> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and > opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding > an other way ever again. > >> > >> I really hope that we take this further though. > >> > >> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > >> < > https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c… > > > >> > >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to > improve > >> the impact of the article. > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >> > > > > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 7 Oct 2017, at 10:15, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> To be honest, I didn't know you could do live coding in Python, Ruby, C/C++. >> I had only ever heard of "hot swapping" in Java. > > Me neither :) > Do not worry and let us continue to work on making Pharo better. > I did not know that a.out and core.dmp where live programming :) With gdb and assembler you can do live coding & OOP too ;-) > Stef > >> At any rate, I'd be surprised if live coding in these languages was as easy >> and convenient as in Pharo/Smalltalk. > > Me too but they are catching up so let us continue to make Pharo super cool. >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

> To be honest, I didn't know you could do live coding in Python, Ruby, C/C++. > I had only ever heard of "hot swapping" in Java. Me neither :) Do not worry and let us continue to work on making Pharo better. I did not know that a.out and core.dmp where live programming :) Stef > At any rate, I'd be surprised if live coding in these languages was as easy > and convenient as in Pharo/Smalltalk. Me too but they are catching up so let us continue to make Pharo super cool.

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi sven Do the same than me, trash this thread and let us focus on making Pharo better. This is far better productive and energy positive. Stef On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:16 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > Yes, you are right: Pharo/Smalltalk is more or less the same as Ruby/Python/C/C++ in terms of power & flexibility of OOP and in live coding. > > Come on. > >> On 6 Oct 2017, at 23:18, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. >> >> And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need even less. >> >> iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. >> >> To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of essential functionality. >> >> For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. >> >> But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... yiaks !!! >> >> I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding an other way ever again. >> >> I really hope that we take this further though. >> >> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk >> <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c…> >> >> If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve >> the impact of the article. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >

Oct. 7, 2017