October 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by A. Glynn

The problem is that it takes 1233 pages of config, and that's the summary page of my config, and it uses 15GB RAM, on my laptop, lol. On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 1:10 AM, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de < jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > > > Am 12.10.17 um 20:04 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis: > >> >> Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, >> started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those people >> had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame porting to >> Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is called >> "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope. >> >> Eclipse was never implemented in Smalltalk. Its predecessor, VisualAge > for Java (and parts of the other VisualAge family members) was. Eclipse was > started as a replacement for VisualAge for Java because Java develoers > didn't like VisualAge for its emulation of an image based environement. It > was a very nice IDE for Java (the best I've known), but it wasn't a nice > home for developers who think in files. > These days Eclipse, IMO, does emulate an image as good as possible, but > nobody cares anymore, because it hides the fact and lets you think in files > ;-) > > Joachim > > -- Andrew Glynn 512-818-3291

Oct. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Music beat detection and 60FPS graphics on Pharo?

by Norbert Hartl

I think that should be easy. I did something like that for a club installation in the early 2000. Squeak had line-in sound and a FFT library. Combined with Morphic a super tool for doing fun stuff. Norbert > Am 14.10.2017 um 10:01 schrieb "phil(a)highoctane.be" <phil(a)highoctane.be>: > > I'd like to do something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7D4eU0lYE > > to showcase FFI, Bloc, and the Pharo liveliness. > > And once I get the basics working, level up in getting it working in a VR headset. > > Is there anyone having a binding to a library for dealing with the sound part, like FMod or other things like that? > > I see this as a medium term project, so, like I can get it working by the end of the year. > > TIA > > Phil

Oct. 14, 2017

Music beat detection and 60FPS graphics on Pharo?

by phil＠highoctane.be

I'd like to do something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL7D4eU0lYE to showcase FFI, Bloc, and the Pharo liveliness. And once I get the basics working, level up in getting it working in a VR headset. Is there anyone having a binding to a library for dealing with the sound part, like FMod or other things like that? I see this as a medium term project, so, like I can get it working by the end of the year. TIA Phil

Oct. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Dimitris Chloupis

I stand corrected On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 at 08:11, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de < jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > > > Am 12.10.17 um 20:04 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis: > > > > Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, > > started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those > > people had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame > > porting to Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is > > called "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope. > > > Eclipse was never implemented in Smalltalk. Its predecessor, VisualAge > for Java (and parts of the other VisualAge family members) was. Eclipse > was started as a replacement for VisualAge for Java because Java > develoers didn't like VisualAge for its emulation of an image based > environement. It was a very nice IDE for Java (the best I've known), but > it wasn't a nice home for developers who think in files. > These days Eclipse, IMO, does emulate an image as good as possible, but > nobody cares anymore, because it hides the fact and lets you think in > files ;-) > > Joachim > >

Oct. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Am 12.10.17 um 20:04 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis: > > Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, > started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those > people had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame > porting to Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is > called "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope. > Eclipse was never implemented in Smalltalk. Its predecessor, VisualAge for Java (and parts of the other VisualAge family members) was. Eclipse was started as a replacement for VisualAge for Java because Java develoers didn't like VisualAge for its emulation of an image based environement. It was a very nice IDE for Java (the best I've known), but it wasn't a nice home for developers who think in files. These days Eclipse, IMO, does emulate an image as good as possible, but nobody cares anymore, because it hides the fact and lets you think in files ;-) Joachim

Oct. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

I donât care about Python vs Pharo debate. I love both I use both. My ultimate goal is to unite the two under a single Uber powerful live coding environment part of my project Atlas. With direct mapping between Pharo and Python objects and no compromises. A workflow that will be seamless that you wonât know if you use Python or Pharo libraries as the Atlas environment will allow you to work with both languages in a symbiotic relationship. That was a dream of mine that I did not dear to reveal now slowly and steadily becomes reality. I am extending the live coding environment of python and later will tackle the subject of a python image format. Already Atlas can use python libraries from Pharo but thatâs about it , but after this revelation I can move to stage 2 of full synchronization between Python and Pharo. Even now Atlas allows you to use Pharo syntax to fully access Python libraries. But integration is skin deep and is what is going to improve the next years. So it seems something good came out of this very long discussion. Atlas is going for a big update. This thread has been a huge inspiration for me. Super excited :) On Sat, 14 Oct 2017 at 03:40, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > The first language I played with, I was nearly 5, was a live environment, > Forth. I used it on an old PDP my mother had bought that was being > surplused at the company she worked at. I used Forth until I was in my > early teens, it was far superior to the BASIC that most other kids I knew > who knew any programming used. It wasn't Smalltalk, but in many of the > areas it was used (production automation is one major area), the language > that most often replaced it *was* Smalltalk. > > The biggest difference, for me, as I wrote in the article the other day, > is the ability to build-on rather than build-with, which in turn is based > on the environment being written in itself. Ruby *looks* very much like > Smalltalk, but it *works* like Java; Python works *more* like Smalltalk, > and it's a much better live environment than Java or Ruby, because more of > it is written in itself, but too much of Python is written in C, and that > causes problems. If the code that interprets/compiles your code follows the > same rules, the machine code it generates will usually also follow the same > rules, and those rules/restrictions are, for the most part, designed to > make code more reliable. > > As well, RVM has proven Smalltalk (specifically Squeak / Pharo, though > admittedly an older version) can scale to 1024 cores nearly linearly. > > Python has a decent developer base but it's almost all OSS and almost all > on Linux. Very few applications in Python are in areas where reliability is > absolutely necessary, or even all that important. Like Smalltalk, it's a > general purpose language in a niche, but the niches are very different. For > years, decades really, any good version of Smalltalk cost an arm and a leg > (some of them both of each), and as a result it tended to be used only > where things really *had* to work. > > Pharo is a great OSS Smalltalk, IMHO by the best to date (Squeak was/is > good, but the LaF was never professional enough for it to be taken as > seriously as it deserves, it just looks too much like a toy although in > reality it's very powerful). Having the capability to build-on a reliable, > attractive and enjoyable base without signing over my great-grand-child's > first born is fantastic, and a great achievement for those who accomplished > it. > > Kendrick is an example of what can be done if you build-*on*: it was > built on Moose, which is built on Glamorous, which is built on Morphic, > which itself is based on a couple of decades work olving the basic problems > inherent to UI's and MVC-type UI's in particular. Kendrick itself was > written in a very short time when you compare it with other epidemiology > programs, *if* you only count the time spent on Kendrick itself. It's an > inherently complex problem area, and it's a life or death problem area. > That an application capable of working reliably enough to be trusted in > that area was built in a short time, because it was built-on a couple of > decades of OSS work, is a huge compliment to those who were involved. > > Unfortunately for me, I wasn't, âº. But at least I can take advantage of it > existence now. > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > *Date*: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 21:18:28 +0000 > *Subject*: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > *To*: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > <Any%20question%20about%20pharo%20is%20welcome%20%3cpharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org%3e> > > > Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > > > *From*: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > <Dimitris%20Chloupis%20%3ckilon.alios(a)gmail.com%3e>> > Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in > OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths > can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP. > > And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I > currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure > it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines > of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least > Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need > even less. > > iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the > real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment. > > To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including > using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both > the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an > image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of > essential functionality. > > For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised > by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why. > > But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, > its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... > yiaks !!! > > I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and > opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding > an other way ever again. > > I really hope that we take this further though. > > On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > < > https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk-38e132c… > > > > If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to improve > the impact of the article. > > Thanks. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > >

Oct. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Andrew Glynn

The first language I played with, I was nearly 5, was a live environment, Forth.Â Â I used it on an old PDP my mother had bought that was being surplused at the company she worked at.Â Â I used Forth until I was in my early teens, it was far superior to the BASIC that most other kids I knew who knew any programming used.Â Â It wasn't Smalltalk, but in many of the areas it was used (production automation is one major area), the language that most often replaced it was Smalltalk.Â Â The biggest difference, for me, as I wrote in the article the other day, is the ability to build-on rather than build-with, which in turn is based on the environment being written in itself. Ruby looks very much like Smalltalk, but it works like Java; Python works more like Smalltalk, and it's a much better live environment than Java or Ruby, because more of it is written in itself, but too much of Python is written in C, and that causes problems. If the code that interprets/compiles your code follows the same rules, the machine code it generates will usually also follow the same rules, and those rules/restrictions are, for the most part, designed to make code more reliable.Â As well, RVM has proven Smalltalk (specifically Squeak / Pharo, though admittedly an older version) can scale to 1024 cores nearly linearly.Â Â Python has a decent developer base but it's almost all OSS and almost all on Linux. Very few applications in Python are in areas where reliability is absolutely necessary, or even all that important. Â Like Smalltalk, it's a general purpose language in a niche, but the niches are very different. For years, decades really, any good version of Smalltalk cost an arm and a leg (some of them both of each), and as a result it tended to be used only where things really had to work. Â Pharo is a great OSS Smalltalk, IMHO by the best to date (Squeak was/is good, but the LaF was never professional enough for it to be taken as seriously as it deserves, it just looks too much like a toy although in reality it's very powerful). Having the capability to build-on a reliable, attractive and enjoyable base without signing over my great- grand-child's first born is fantastic, and a great achievement for those who accomplished it. Kendrick is an example of what can be done if you build-on:Â Â it was built on Moose, which is built on Glamorous, which is built on Morphic, which itself is based on a couple of decades work olving the basic problems inherent to UI's and MVC-type UI's in particular.Â Â Kendrick itself was written in a very short time when you compare it with other epidemiology programs, if you only count the time spent on Kendrick itself.Â Â It's an inherently complex problem area, and it's a life or death problem area. That an application capable of working reliably enough to be trusted in that area was built in a short time, because it was built-on a couple of decades of OSS work, is a huge compliment to those who were involved.Â Â Unfortunately for me, I wasn't, âº.Â Â But at least I can take advantage of it existence now. Andrew -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 21:18:28 +0000Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern SmalltalkTo: Any question about pharo is welcome <pha ro-users(a)lists.pharo.org>Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail .com>Wise not to mention Ruby and Python and Pick the worst of the worst in OOP. Because frankly the competition for Pharo against those two behemoths can be quite brutal in the flexibility and power of OOP.Â And no , these language can do live coding with ease. I know because I currently code live coding style with Python for an app I am making. Sure it wont provide you with a live system out of the box, but put in 10 lines of code and you already ready to go with hardcore live coding. At least Python , Ruby being practically a rip off of Smalltalk language may need even less.Â iPython which by the way is by far the most popular Python tool is the real deal, a full blow live coding enviroment.Â To my suprise its not even hard to do live coding with C/C++ including using image format. To my shock live coding is actually supported by both the OS and the hardware. Hardware has its own exception system , OS has an image flie format called "memory mapped files" used for DLLs and a lot of essential functionality.Â For some weird reason however its well hidden and not that much utilised by coders. They really love long compile times, dont ask me why.Â But yeah C++ even though it has come a long way with its template system, its still the king of ugly. That sytax, oh the horrors of that syntax..... yiaks !!! I am so enternal greatful that Pharo introduced me to live coding and opened my eyes to universe of fun and productivity. I cannot imagine coding an other way ever again.Â I really hope that we take this further though.Â On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > > <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/behold-pharo-the-modern-smalltalk- > 38e132c46053> > > > > If you would like to suggest some edits, I'm all ears. Anything to > improve > > the impact of the article. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > >

Oct. 14, 2017

Bloc Example Errors & question

by Ricardo Pacheco

I was reviewing the Bloc examples because I'm looking for a way to connect several blocks like this: <http://forum.world.st/file/t370703/muestra.png> . The idea is that if I move the block, the link with other blocks is kept. I could not find any similar example. Any hint would be appreciated. Also, while reviewing the examples in the latest Pharo 6, some crashed and a couple even let Pharo unresponsive: BlBasicExamples >> example3D (crash) BlBasicExamples >> exampleWithImage BlBenchmark >> example_821nestedEl_in1000x1000_mouseMove50ms (crash) BlMobilePhone >> open Thanks Ricardo -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Nicolai Hess

2017-10-13 22:04 GMT+02:00 Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com>: > I understand why it occurs, both the private and the final keyword > affect the reference rather than the object. However, to quote someone > else "That the value of a private field can be changed without a public > setter implies that encapsulation is weak at best, and shouldn't be > counted on to protect key values, even in combination with the final > keyword." Even that comment, though, brings in the notion of a 'value' > that's not an object. > and who did you quote ? > > My point initially was not about the code, but about the Java API doc > that also claims attempting to change the *value* will result in a compile > error. Although keywords affect references, the documentation states > that it affects 'the value', which is at best ambiguous. > I can not see what is wrong here. You are problably confused by - the value of a *variable* - and the value an *object* represents (its object state) the first can not be changed for a final variables the last can only be preserved, if the object is immutable. > There are also numerous issues around type erasure > ... this seems a bit off topic > I'd rather have *no* API documentation than documentation of the sort > represented by the Java API doc. > I think a java api doc like documentation would help. For newcomers, that not yet know ( or know how to find) the in-image help. And even so we can easily browse our code with comments and class comments, an API-doc could provide the help from a different view (group by collaboration rather then by class hierarchy or packages), give an "overall" view or provide additional code examples. > Not that I think it's all > intentional, though perhaps the primitives and scalars that are in fact > objects > How are java primitives "in fact" objects ? They are "in fact" primitives. This is different from smalltakl where some *objects* like Smallinteger are implemented as primitives (or immediates) but still objects on the (smalltalk) code level. > and collections may have been to muffle wailing from C/C++ > programmers that the lack of primitives and scalars would kill > performance. I suspect it's more often a result of unsuccessfully > mode-switching, though, between the rules of the language you're > implementing and those of the language you're implementing *in*, but that > only makes the case for languages implemented in themselves stronger. > > Andrew > > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 18:39:59 +0200 > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk > To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo- > users(a)lists.pharo.org> > From: Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> > > > Am 13.10.2017 5:50 PM schrieb "Andrew Glynn" <aglynn42(a)gmail.com>: > I can't remember ever using API docs in any language, dynamic or not. > They give you the method signatures, but if you have, say, methodX(int, > int, String), how are you supposed to guess what ints and what String > the method actually needs, > > > Isn't this exactly what an apidoc is for? Additional documentation to > describe the methods and arguments purpose. > > Maybe you have just seen poorly documented libraries? > > > One of my favourite language fails can be reproduced by doing this: > > Declare a field private final in Java, initializing it either in the > declaration or the constructor, and provide only a getter. Use the getter > from another class and change the value of the local variable. Then use the > getter again, but assign the value to a new local variable, and check the > value. > > > > Maybe you should re-read about javas final keyword. > It is not to meant making something immutable , > you can just not reassign a new value. > > Java final != c++ const > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Dimitris Chloupis

I have to confess I am a fan of the french accent english too , it has a nice musicality in it +1 for subtitles. I love accents, the more the better :D On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 9:28 PM Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > In fact the files have two tracks. > > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:13 PM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Oh good, glad the French version is still there. I was starting to go >> through it a couple of weeks ago and plan to continue starting this >> weekend. Although my mother tongue is English, at one point I was >> fluently bilingual (both Quebecois and actual French), and it's a >> chance to get some of it back while picking up information I've likely >> missed >> on less obvious features. >> >> I can understand French well enough, but the more I hear it spoken >> the better. Reading/writing don't get rusty as easily. >> >> Of course speaking it would be even better, but I don't get many >> chances to do so in Toronto âº. >> >> Andrew >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 18:06:17 +0200 >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC >> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> >> Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo- >> users(a)lists.pharo.org> >> From: Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> >> The production company told us that it was super strange without our >> voices. >> Now you can also have the french + subtitles. >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, >> 2017 at 2:42 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: >> >> I played C019SD- >> W1-S1-EN-V1.mp4 >> and as well as the english voice, in the >> background I >> can still hear your >> original french voice. >> I'm curious the >> rea >> soning for >> this. >> >> cheers -ben >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Stephane Ducasse <step >> haro.self(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> I'm about to release the en versions. >> you can >> find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ >> >> Stef >> >> On >> Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: >> >> On Tue, >> 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 >> Stephane Ducasse >> <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hello Stef, >> >> I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. >> >> >> Thanks a >> lot! >> >> We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english >> nati >> ves would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy >> french >> accents ;) >> >> >> I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, >> although not >> native, >> happily survived. :-) >> >> Moreover, I'd say that your >> English is charming! At least, one is sure >> that the >> real human is >> speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the >> new >> Mooc is >> going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to >> download >> the >> current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? >> >> Iow. my point >> is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, >> but the >> energy >> behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based >> on my >> own >> teaching experiences. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> Gour >> >> -- >> From anger, complete delusion >> arises, and from delusion >> bewilderment of memory. When memory is >> bewildered, >> intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost >> one falls >> down again into the material pool. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Is possible to keep some code closed in Pharo?

by Dimitris Chloupis

If you make a morph maximise and pin it down, it will cover the entire pharo windows and wont be movable and will make it impossible for the user to interact with the IDE even via shorcuts. If I am wrong on shortcuts I hope someone correct me but last time I checked that was the case. Command line wise, command line api is very elegant, very simple to add and remove arguments. Those will block the user from controlling Pharo. Soruce code visibility: 1) What stef said, delte sources 2) If you use monticello the traditional way ,it saves in mcz files which are jus zip files with source code files inside. Created every time you save to a local or remote repo 3) Delete any fileouts, those produce st files too, smalltalk source code files 4) if you use filetree that uses source files too but generally you would pick a directory outside pharo 5) changes files also contain source code you modified or added 6) We hava new recovery tool, I forget the name, has its own file format I dont rememebr if it uses text files like changes, it might, check that out too. Generally anywhere you spot a file with st extension its a source code file, delete it or move it away. We may use an image format but we generate a ton of source code files for various reason as you can see. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:27 PM Ricardo Pacheco < ricardo.pacheco.roldan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Wow, that sounds great. Thanks a lot!! > > Ricardo > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well oh Well, Python is stupid.... Very, very stupid To my suprise live coding in Python its actually easier to what I expected and almost the same, from user perspective to that of pharo.Minus the IDE conveiniece of course. But a pain in the hat to find the proper way to do it. I was reloading modules, was thining of implementing become to python , which basically means replacing references to old instance object with references to new objects , then I thought that it would be more efficient to just reference the new methods to the instances and after a TON of testing I realized this is dead simple and for some reason python hides it very well. All the above were completely unecessary. Insance methods are referencing functions in the class object. Apparently functions in a class are taken as class methods and functions with self as first argument are considered instance methods. Which means I just copy paste the code of the method to the debugger, and assign it back to the existing live class and all instances are updated automagically. No need for become, no need to update instances manually no need to even reload the module. Similarly you can delete methods and add methods on the fly always live. Renaming a method is basically deleting and assigning . Renaming the class is the same. As is for class and instance variables. So anything can change on the fly. Names are there for your pleasure, in the end all that matters are the references.Its objects all the way down. The equivelant of a python instance method defiition and live updae , the python way, on Pharo would be MyClass instanceMethodName:= myMessage firstArg:self arg2: foo1 arg3: foo2.... |locals| code stuff and you python "call it" or message it MyClass insanceMethodName arg2:foo1 arg3: foo2 , no need to use self when calling it. Self is automatically passed because from the definition python knows this is suppose to be an insance method. or you could put a block after the assigment , because the name of the message is assigned by the assignment anyway, for class method you ommit the first argument of self. Calling is the same. This replaces a method or adds it if does not exist. All instances of that live class are immediately poitining to the new method. So the class is basically a collection of references. So all I have to do now is to wrap the copy paste and assignment in a single shortcut or button and I am ready to fly to live coding land. Days wasted chasing my tail but at least I learned a lot about python objects which are basically dictionaries objects (for variables) plus function objects (for class and instance methods) wrap inside an object, or rather referenced, called a class. Storing the live state , similar to fuel, is supported by the pickle library. Why on earth python made it so hard something so simple to understand ? no idea .I dont even need to make a live coding enviroment library as I assumed, its already there, hiding under the cover too scared to come out. Now I know why none or almost none does live coding in Python.

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Andrew Glynn

I understand why it occurs, both the private and the final keyword affect the reference rather than the object. However, to quote someone else "That the value of a private field can be changed without a public setter implies that encapsulation is weak at best, and shouldn't be counted on to protect key values, even in combination with the final keyword."Â Â Even that comment, though, brings in the notion of a 'value' that's not an object. My point initially was not about the code, but about the Java API doc that also claims attempting to change the value will result in a compile error. Although keywords affect references, the documentation states that it affects 'the value', which is at best ambiguous. There's inevitably a conflation of passing by value and passing by reference in Java by former C/C++ programmers, since it looks like PBV to a C/C++ programmer while always in fact being PBR.Â Â When copying syntax inverting the meaning of the syntax is counterproductive.Â There are also numerous issues around type erasure (mainly that it works for collections, even simple collections such as vectors, but not for arrays) and the resulting need for Java to allow invalid type casts in certain cases even though they can result in uncaught runtime exceptions. Since the fact that they are invalid is explicit in the API doc, that they are allowed because there's no other way to do it is problematic. Using lambdas or the streaming API within Java EE is another undocumented problem, or set of problems ( it was good fortune for me personally - when some software using the streaming API in an EE container consistently failed and the developer had no idea why, the company gave me the project I implemented it in Pharo, âº ). Â Oracle did at one point have a note on the Java EE 7 download page to the effect that Java EE 7 shouldn't be used with Java SE 8, but that was 'disappeared' when Java SE 7 was no longer supported and Java EE 7 was still the latest version.Â Â Since Java EE 8 is not even on the horizon, while SE 9 is due 'any minute now', I have to wonder if EE is simply dead.Â Â The requests from IBM, SAP and others to take over EE imply they at least suspect the same. I'd rather have no API documentation than documentation of the sort represented by the Java API doc.Â Â Not that I think it's all intentional, though perhaps the primitives and scalars that are in fact objects and collections may have been to muffle wailingÂ from C/C++ programmers that the lack of primitives and scalars would kill performance.Â Â I suspect it's more often a result of unsuccessfully mode-switching, though, between the rules of the language you're implementing and those of the language you're implementing in, but that only makes the case for languages implemented in themselves stronger. Andrew -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 18:39:59 +0200 Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo- users(a)lists.pharo.org> From: Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> Am 13.10.2017 5:50 PM schrieb "Andrew Glynn" <aglynn42(a)gmail.com>: I can't remember ever using API docs in any language, dynamic or not.Â They give you the method signatures, but if you have, say, methodX(int, int, String), how are you supposed to guess what ints and what String the method actually needs, Isn't this exactly what an apidoc is for? Additional documentation to describe the methods andÂ Â arguments purpose.Â Maybe you have just seen poorly documented libraries? One of my favourite language fails can be reproduced by doing this:Â Declare a field private final in Java, initializing it either in the declaration or the constructor, and provide only a getter. Use the getter from another class and change the value of the local variable. Then use the getter again, but assign the value to a new local variable, and check the value. Â Maybe you should re-read about javasÂ final keyword. It is not to meant making something immutable , you can just not reassign a new value. Java final != c++ const

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Zinc release?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Herby, > On 13 Oct 2017, at 14:37, Herby VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: > > Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >> >>> On 12 Oct 2017, at 15:58, Herby VojÄÃk<herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: >>> >>> There are a few fixes out there for Zinc, not to mention convenience like ZnEntity class>> json:. Don't you consider releasing the new version (as I tried to update it by hand, it is not that easy, it has more components, to load HTTP I had to update Character-Encoding as well, so probably better if bumped as a group)? >>> >>> Herby >> >> That's what configurations are for, to track the latest development release in a consistent way. You just do >> >> ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents project bleedingEdge load. >> >> Provided you loaded a recent configuration. > > I'm nort sure I want the bleeding edge loaded, albeit for recent configuration, for the production code (thought not mission criticial about lives or millions of $$$). Also I don't know if configurations are updated after each change out there (it must be done by hand I presume). So I was asking if there isn't a time to release another stable one. > > If not, and I still want not the true bleeding edge, but a "it works for me" snapshot in time, to load specific version of ConfigurationOf... and the issue ... project bleedingEdge load? Will it load only those version that were bleedingEdge at that time? > >> See the class comment of ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents for more info. >> >> Sven There are only two branches/versions: the latest development branch (bleedingEdge, 'head', just all the latest versions of all packages) and specific released versions (that get an id that you can refer to). Doing a release is a manual process that comes down to fixing the bleedingEdge at a moment when I feel it is stable enough. There are no versions in between releases that you can refer to. AFAIK this is how most Pharo projects work, it is how I work in all my projects. Sven

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

In fact the files have two tracks. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:13 PM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Oh good, glad the French version is still there. I was starting to go > through it a couple of weeks ago and plan to continue starting this > weekend. Although my mother tongue is English, at one point I was > fluently bilingual (both Quebecois and actual French), and it's a > chance to get some of it back while picking up information I've likely > missed > on less obvious features. > > I can understand French well enough, but the more I hear it spoken > the better. Reading/writing don't get rusty as easily. > > Of course speaking it would be even better, but I don't get many > chances to do so in Toronto âº. > > Andrew > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 18:06:17 +0200 > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC > To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo- > users(a)lists.pharo.org> > From: Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> > The production company told us that it was super strange without our > voices. > Now you can also have the french + subtitles. > > On Fri, Oct 13, > 2017 at 2:42 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > I played C019SD- > W1-S1-EN-V1.mp4 > and as well as the english voice, in the > background I > can still hear your > original french voice. > I'm curious the > rea > soning for > this. > > cheers -ben > > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Stephane Ducasse <step > haro.self(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > I'm about to release the en versions. > you can > find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ > > Stef > > On > Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > > On Tue, > 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 > Stephane Ducasse > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hello Stef, > > I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. > > > Thanks a > lot! > > We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english > nati > ves would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy > french > accents ;) > > > I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, > although not > native, > happily survived. :-) > > Moreover, I'd say that your > English is charming! At least, one is sure > that the > real human is > speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the > new > Mooc is > going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to > download > the > current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? > > Iow. my point > is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, > but the > energy > behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based > on my > own > teaching experiences. > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > From anger, complete delusion > arises, and from delusion > bewilderment of memory. When memory is > bewildered, > intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost > one falls > down again into the material pool. > > > > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Andrew Glynn

Oh good, glad the French version is still there.Â Â I was starting to go through it a couple of weeks ago and plan to continue starting this weekend.Â Â Although my mother tongue is English, at one point I was fluently bilingual (both Quebecois and actual French), and it's a chance to get some of it back while picking up information I've likely missed on less obvious features. I can understand French well enough, but the more I hear it spoken the better.Â Reading/writing don't get rusty as easily. Of course speaking it would be even better, but I don't get many chances to do so in Toronto âº. Andrew -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 18:06:17 +0200 Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo- users(a)lists.pharo.org> From: Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> The production company told us that it was super strange without our voices. Now you can also have the french + subtitles. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > I played C019SD-W1-S1-EN-V1.mp4and as well as the english voice, in > the > background Ican still hear youroriginal french voice.I'm curious > therea > soning forthis. > cheers -ben > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self@gmai > l.com>wrote: > > I'm about to release the en versions.you canfind them unofficially > > on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ > > Stef > > OnTue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, > > > 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 > > > Stephane Ducasse > > > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello Stef, > > > > > > > I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. > > > > > > Thanks a > > > lot! > > > > > > > We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english > > > > nati > > > > ves would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy > > > > french > > > > accents ;) > > > > > > I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, > > > although not > > > native, > > > happily survived. :-) > > > > > > Moreover, I'd say that your > > > English is charming! At least, one is sure > > > that the > > > real human is > > > speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the > > > new > > > Mooc is > > > going to be the same as theÂ Â current/old one, I'd prefer to > > > download > > > the > > > current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? > > > > > > Iow. my point > > > is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, > > > but the > > > energy > > > behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based > > > on my > > > own > > > teaching experiences. > > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Gour > > > > > > -- > > > From anger, complete delusion > > > arises, and from delusion > > > bewilderment of memory. When memory is > > > bewildered, > > > intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost > > > one falls > > > down again into the material pool. > > > > > > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Is possible to keep some code closed in Pharo?

by Ricardo Pacheco

Wow, that sounds great. Thanks a lot!! Ricardo -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Nicolai Hess

Am 13.10.2017 5:50 PM schrieb "Andrew Glynn" <aglynn42(a)gmail.com>: I can't remember ever using API docs in *any* language, dynamic or not. They give you the method signatures, but if you have, say, methodX(int, int, String), how are you supposed to guess what ints and what String the method actually needs, Isn't this exactly what an apidoc is for? Additional documentation to describe the methods and arguments purpose. Maybe you have just seen poorly documented libraries? One of my favourite language fails can be reproduced by doing this: Declare a field private final in Java, initializing it either in the declaration or the constructor, and provide only a getter. Use the getter from another class and change the value of the local variable. Then use the getter again, but assign the value to a new local variable, and check the value. Maybe you should re-read about javas final keyword. It is not to meant making something immutable , you can just not reassign a new value. Java final != c++ const

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by Stephane Ducasse

Tx On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:29 AM, monty <monty2(a)programmer.net> wrote: > I know what the problem is and will have it fixed shortly. Thanks for the report. > >> Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 at 9:03 AM >> From: "Peter Kenny" <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> >> To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding' >> >> Correction - I am misrepresenting Sven. What he said was that Zinc would not >> look inside the HTML <head> node to find out about coding. It would of >> course use information in the HTTP headers, if any. >> >> >> Peter Kenny wrote >> > Henry >> > >> > Thanks for the explanations. It's a bit clearer now. I'm still not sure >> > about how ZnUrl>>retrieveContents manages to decode correctly in this >> > case; >> > I'm sure I recall Sven saying it didn't (and in his view shouldn't) look >> > at >> > the HTTP declarations in the header. There is also the mystery of how the >> > string reader in the XML-Parser package (XMLURI>>get) does the same trick, >> > when it is presumably what XMLHTMLParser>>parseURL: uses and fails. >> > >> > However, all these are second order problems. It all begins because the >> > Corriere web site does strange things with encoding, including using a >> > UTF8 >> > character in a page coded with 8859-1, as Paul pointed out. In any case, >> > reading the page as a string and then parsing it solves my problem, so I >> > shall stick to that as a standard procedure. Most importantly, I don't >> > think >> > there is any indication of a problem in the XML package for Monty to worry >> > about. >> > >> > Thanks again >> > >> > Peter >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Stephane Ducasse

epub already works. Now it should be improved. Doing an pandoc exporter should not be that difficult. If you do it I will integrate it. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 > Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so >> who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) > > Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. > addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub > support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source markup > for all of one's writings? > > After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and rst > markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, but, > so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't tried with > slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. > > Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us even more > import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats like > *.odt, *.epub etc. > > Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of Pharo > itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well as > for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, slide-presentations. > > But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit > feature request for Pillar? > > Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities > he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no > one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

The production company told us that it was super strange without our voices. Now you can also have the french + subtitles. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > I played C019SD-W1-S1-EN-V1.mp4 > and as well as the english voice, in the background I can still hear your > original french voice. > I'm curious the reasoning for this. > > cheers -ben > > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> I'm about to release the en versions. >> you can find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ >> >> Stef >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: >> > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 >> > Stephane Ducasse >> > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Hello Stef, >> > >> >> I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. >> > >> > Thanks a lot! >> > >> >> We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english >> >> natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy >> >> french accents ;) >> > >> > I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, although not >> > native, >> > happily survived. :-) >> > >> > Moreover, I'd say that your English is charming! At least, one is sure >> > that the >> > real human is speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the >> > new >> > Mooc is going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to >> > download >> > the current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? >> > >> > Iow. my point is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, >> > but the >> > energy behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based >> > on my >> > own teaching experiences. >> > >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > Gour >> > >> > -- >> > From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion >> > bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, >> > intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost >> > one falls down again into the material pool. >> > >> > >> > >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

Superb! On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Ricardo Pacheco <ricardo.pacheco.roldan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Great, I will have a look at them. I registered to participate in the MOOC > starting on Oct 16, so look forward to contribute back a bit. > > Ricardo > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Is possible to keep some code closed in Pharo?

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi ricardo - You can ship pharo without sources. In fact the sources are not used during execution (just for the human). - You can ship pharo without debugger. This is one line of code. - Soon we expect to be able to remove the compiler and the decompiler :). - You can also control that the commandline does not allow code execution Now this is not user friendly. We wan with esteban to provide a way to deploy applications (by opposition of code). So I can tell you that we want to have a process and tooling to help for that. I you need help to get you started with Pharo let us know. stef On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Ricardo Pacheco <ricardo.pacheco.roldan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > IMHO, one important aspect to deliver comercial solutions for customers in an > environment like Pharo is to be able to protect certain code or algorithms > developed by the company. It possible to have some clases compiled and > closed to the eyes of customers? Or it is posible to have some kind of > access control to edit clases? > > A bit of context for my question. > In the company I work for in Mexico we have been using a similar live coding > environment for 30 years with great results. The environment we used until a > couple of years ago is named G2 by Gensym; lisp based internally, with is > own natural language like syntax for developers, with a very powerful > backward ans forwards chaining rule engine, an excellent toolkit to create > visual components and a wonderful VNC like and lightwaight > client(Telewindows) that makes visual interactions with a remote G2 very > easy with a very small bandwidth use. Until a couple of years ago, we > developed on it tailor made supply chain solutions and mathematical models; > since then we moved to Java and .NET. > We wish we could stay with live coding, but the draw back with that platform > we used is that is really expensive for customers and the company has been > changing hands to more lawyer oriented owners, because of its installed > based license fees and IP portfolio. So, getting to know Pharo makes me very > enthusiastic about the possibility to move back to live coding. > > Thanks for the response. > > Ricardo > > > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Andrew Glynn

I can't remember ever using API docs in any language, dynamic or not.Â Â They give you the method signatures, but if you have, say, methodX(int, int, String), how are you supposed to guess what ints and what String the method actually needs, unless the methods are nothing but getters and setters (which I've never understood the point of) ?Â Â (I know, most give (int somename, int someothername, String whatever), but how often do are method names well thought through enough to imply definitively what the method needs?. Â It's my biggest issue with Algol-style syntax - the method caller is supposed to know how it works, rather than whoever actually wrote it.Â Â It's probably at least one of the reasons for the amount of OSS in Java, and more recently in JavaScript (though the latter is more no- style than Algol-style).Â Â I nearly always download the source to OSS libs although I rarely ever bother building it, so I know what a method does with the params, and I can be sure what params to give it. One of my favourite language fails can be reproduced by doing this:Â Declare a field private final in Java, initializing it either in the declaration or the constructor, and provide only a getter.Â Â Use the getter from another class and change the value of the local variable. Then use the getter again, but assign the value to a new local variable, and check the value. Â Guess what? The value is whatever you changed it to in your other local variable, although the API docs claim javac won't compile it. I tested this with Java 8,Â Â I haven't bothered to see if it was always like that or if they took the rule out of javac because it interfered with some syntactic parmesan, such as lambdas.Â Â I should copy my test code into VisualAge for Java and see if in fact it compiles with JDK 1.4.2, or if javac was changed in between 4 and 8, since the addition of various flavours of syntactic parmesan mostly started with Java 5. Not that it's all that important in one sense.Â Â If 'private' and 'final' were supposed to be guides for other developers to be careful if they're thinking about changing it, fine, anyone who doesn't isn't all that good a developer.Â Â But given the number of 'not very good' developers I've had the misfortune to work with in Java, it's more problematic than it should be.Â Â It also makes the pattern of a private field with a public setter even more useless, since the setter isn't needed to change the value.Â Â I always get dinged by whatever lint companies use for not bothering with that pattern, though, and pointing out that declaring the fields public accomplishes exactly the same thing never helps my case, because whatever lint they use, it has to be right, there's no way a non-lint developer might be right. Andrew Glynn -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 10:01:20 -0500Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern SmalltalkTo: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.orgReply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>From: Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really Â Â Â Â Â Â sold on them compared with a live system and I don't think static Â Â Â Â Â Â API docs are critical for Pharo success. Â Â Â Â Cheers, Â Â Â Â Offray Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Ah > Â Â Â Â Â Â and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, > using > Â Â Â Â Â Â bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache > that > Â Â Â Â Â Â makes html manipulation much easierÂ > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â http://www.kilon-alios.com > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs > an > Â Â Â Â Â Â awesome Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom > so I > Â Â Â Â Â Â thought , why not ? > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Docs are > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â available in static online html format , at least the > > book I > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â was working onÂ > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Pharo By ExampleÂ > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â You can find those links here > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoBy > > Example > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html > > and > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â markdown files.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of > > Inria > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â where most Pharo related official projects are built then > > it > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â should have at least pdf and html with online access so > > you > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â can easily link to. > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of > > pillar > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â generate links even for paragraphs you can do an even > > more > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â process linking to the documentation.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The more I use Pharo, the less I use web > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation. For me seems pretty suboptimal > > > compared > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â to live environment with code browser and GT- > > > Spotter. > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took > > > me > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can > > > vary. > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â What I was missing was proper books for > > > particular > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I > > > don't > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â know if a Q&A site could improve search-ability > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â for newbies (certainly you can find little > > > stuff in > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Stack Overflow). > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â My bet is about trying to create more "end user" > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â tools (Grafoscopio is kind of this), besides > > > tools for > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â developers. There is a broad community of > > > people who > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â can be active contributors and members of the > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â community, welcome Pharo and live coding a lot > > > and > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â don't complain that much about stuff that is > > > not > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â already pretty similar to what they already > > > know > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (being that only English MOOC or online static > > > html > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â docs). > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Cheers, > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Offray > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â for me it is a yes and no situation, > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â yes its very coold to have your entire > > > > system in > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â your fingertips but Pharo has serious > > > > issues with > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â code organisation and I find the lack of > > > > namespaces > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â quite inconvenient. You have to be careful > > > > how to > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â name your classes which does not sound to > > > > me very > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â OOP friendly.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Also the IDE does not handle > > > > spaggetification > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â very well, sure you can find implementors > > > > , > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â senders etc but if the execution chain is > > > > complex > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a > > > > problem > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â with most other IDEs if not all as well. > > > > Problem > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â is in this case that we have the very > > > > good rule of > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â using sort methods which multiplies this > > > > problem > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â and makes navigation even harder. Code > > > > becomes > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â much easier to read per method and > > > > messages but > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â much harder to understand in a bird eye > > > > view. > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Some of that pain has been aleviated with > > > > the > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â introduction of GTSpotter which I have > > > > praised > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â quite a lot and I will continue to do so. > > > > But yeah > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â there are more needed to be done in the > > > > department > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â to make Pharo code navigation a more > > > > comfortable > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â task.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I > > > > > find > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the System Browser a fantastic way > > > > > to explore > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the class library. If you find a > > > > > class or > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â method that isnât well documented, > > > > > write a > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â comment and send a change request. > > > > > Stef told > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â me this ages ago. I might add, if > > > > > you find a > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â bug you should write a test that > > > > > exercises the > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â bug and submit it on fogbugz (the > > > > > bug tracking > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â system). > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I will reference of response of > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â mine to a similar opinion made by > > > > > Richard: https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much > > > > > -harder-to-find-anything-in-the-environment-c6bdd44f6eea > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â My 2 cents. > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich@ > > > > > gmail.com> > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, > > > > > > horrido > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Interestingly, I'm getting > > > > > > a fair > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â amount of pushback on this. > > > > > > Personally, I > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > think it would be very > > > > > > helpful to > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â have a live (updatable, so as > > > > > > to keep it > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > current) reference page for > > > > > > the class > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â library, something that > > > > > > developers can > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > easily look up what they > > > > > > need. After > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â all, most of the power of > > > > > > Pharo comes > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > from the class library and > > > > > > we need to > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â make it as accessible as > > > > > > possible to > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > less experienced Pharoers > > > > > > (i.e., > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â beginners). > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Exploring the class library > > > > > > through > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the System Browser is very > > > > > > inefficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > This is further exacerbated > > > > > > by the > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â fact that many classes and > > > > > > methods are > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > simply not well-documented > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (containing a cursory remark > > > > > > which is just > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â barely > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > useful). > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I > > > > > > find > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the System Browser a fantastic > > > > > > way to > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â explore the class library. If > > > > > > you find a > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â class or method that isnât well > > > > > > documented, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â write a comment and send a > > > > > > change request. > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Stef told me this ages ago. I > > > > > > might add, if > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â you find a bug you should write > > > > > > a test that > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â exercises the bug and submit it > > > > > > on fogbugz > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (the bug tracking system). > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > I realize that creating a > > > > > > live > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â reference page is not easy > > > > > > to do. In > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â fact, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > it's a lot of work. But > > > > > > the absence > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â of such a page is a real > > > > > > obstacle to > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Pharo acceptance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > horrido wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> Thanks. I gave your > > > > > > answer > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â verbatim. I also added the > > > > > > following > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â paragraph: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> The problem I find with > > > > > > todayâs > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â developers is that they are > > > > > > rather > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> closed-minded. They are > > > > > > rigid > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â and inflexible, and not > > > > > > willing to adapt > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â to > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> new and different ways > > > > > > of doing > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â things. In my generation > > > > > > (circa > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> 1980â1990), > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> people didnât have a > > > > > > problem > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â with trying different > > > > > > technologies. > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Thatâs > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> why > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> I had no issue with > > > > > > learning > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Smalltalk 10 years ago, > > > > > > after I had > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â retired > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> from a 20-year-long > > > > > > career in C > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â systems programming and > > > > > > FORTRAN > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â scientific > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> programming. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 > > > > > > wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 14:54, horrido < > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> horrido.hobbies@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> I received this > > > > > > comment > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â from someone who > > > > > > complained: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> *What about the lack > > > > > > of > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation? From time to > > > > > > time Iâve > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â checked > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> some > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> SmallTalk > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â implementations like > > > > > > Squeak, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â GNU-Smalltalk and now > > > > > > Pharo. Of > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> these, only > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â GNU-SmallTalk appears to > > > > > > have a free, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â official programming > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> guide > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> and core library > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â reference that any serious > > > > > > programmer > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â expects from a > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> language. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> https://www.gnu.org/so > > > > > > ftware/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> I pointed to Pharo's > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation but then he > > > > > > came back > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â with: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> *Then show me a link > > > > > > of > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the free, maintained > > > > > > reference > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation for > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> the > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> classes that form âthe > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â core libraryâ, like this > > > > > > one for Python > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> (https://docs.python.o > > > > > > rg/3/library/index.html)* > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> It's true, most > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Smalltalks do not have a > > > > > > core library > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â reference, not > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> even > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> VisualWorks! So what > > > > > > is > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the proper response to this > > > > > > complaint? > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> The first answer is > > > > > > that > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Pharo/Smalltalk is unique > > > > > > in that a > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â running > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> system/IDE contains > > > > > > _all_ > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â source code, _all_ > > > > > > documentation (class, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> method, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> help, tutorial), _all_ > > > > > > unit > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â tests and _all_ runnable > > > > > > examples in a > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â very > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> easy, accessible way. > > > > > > It > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â takes some getting used to, > > > > > > but this is > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â actually > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> better and much more > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â powerful than any > > > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> The second answer is > > > > > > that > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â there are lots of books and > > > > > > articles > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â that take > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> the classic/structured > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â book/paper approach. There > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> http://books.pharo.org, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â http://themoosebook.org, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> http://book.seaside.st/ > > > > > > book, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â http://medium.com/concernin > > > > > > g-pharo > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â and many > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> more. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> Sent from: http://foru > > > > > > m.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> Sent from: http://forum. > > > > > > world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Sent from: http://forum.w > > > > > > orld.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â

Oct. 13, 2017

Is possible to keep some code closed in Pharo?

by Ricardo Pacheco

IMHO, one important aspect to deliver comercial solutions for customers in an environment like Pharo is to be able to protect certain code or algorithms developed by the company. It possible to have some clases compiled and closed to the eyes of customers? Or it is posible to have some kind of access control to edit clases? A bit of context for my question. In the company I work for in Mexico we have been using a similar live coding environment for 30 years with great results. The environment we used until a couple of years ago is named G2 by Gensym; lisp based internally, with is own natural language like syntax for developers, with a very powerful backward ans forwards chaining rule engine, an excellent toolkit to create visual components and a wonderful VNC like and lightwaight client(Telewindows) that makes visual interactions with a remote G2 very easy with a very small bandwidth use. Until a couple of years ago, we developed on it tailor made supply chain solutions and mathematical models; since then we moved to Java and .NET. We wish we could stay with live coding, but the draw back with that platform we used is that is really expensive for customers and the company has been changing hands to more lawyer oriented owners, because of its installed based license fees and IP portfolio. So, getting to know Pharo makes me very enthusiastic about the possibility to move back to live coding. Thanks for the response. Ricardo -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 13, 2017