January 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by Volkert

+1 On 01.01.2017 21:34, stepharong wrote: > > > I tried that tack. I said Pharo is only 8 years old, but some > people come back and tell me that Pharo is still essentially > Smalltalk. It's hard for me to disagree. > > > Do not fight with such people. > You should not care about assholes. > Pharo is Pharo. Period. > Come to have fun with us building something whatever it is. > > Stef

Jan. 2, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi, On 01/01/17 14:37, horrido wrote: > Quite true. The goal of my Smalltalk campaign has always been about > marketing or "branding." The goal has been to get /as many people as > possible/ thinking and talking about Smalltalk. It's not so much about the > quality of conversation as actually having a conversation at all. I explain > here <https://medium.com/@richardeng/domo-arigato-mr-smalltalk-aa84e245beb9> Thanks for the link. I disagree with this part: """ I found it difficult to engage the Smalltalk community. After many years and many failed attempts to popularize Smalltalk, most had felt beaten down into submission. They began to rationalize that Smalltalk didnât need to be popular. The community was smug and insular, and that was just fine with them. I canât say I blame them. Smalltalk has had a storied history and a lot of water under the bridge. But after all these years, it just didnât seem worth getting their hopes up again. """ In my case, I never care about Smalltalk popularity and became hopeless after seeing is not. I have had this care for popularity of free libre open source software (FLOSS) in the past, but now I think that my energy is better put in other "fights" and care more about "sustainability" of FLOSS and its communities and broader societal issues. But I do think that Smalltalk needs to become less insular, by caring about what is happening elsewhere, including technological and societal places and themes, which means to became a medium to express care about these places and themes. Sometimes this can be done by supporting a particular markup format (markdown) or technology (git) or by supporting broader themes and people (that's why I talk about data story telling and diverse communities), but popularity is not the metric in such broader scenarios, but diversity, autonomy and empowerment. Cheers, Offray

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by Dimitris Chloupis

Sorry Stef it will never happen. The issue here is not that Pharo is Smalltalk , the problem here is that you promote something that is too good to be true. Coders live in a denial state for decades now . The denial is about not wanting to recognize that even my hardware is 10000 times better in processing power and more than 50000 better in storage , the software is barely 10 times better than my first computer 30 years ago. Software is anchored in Stone Age for decades now and is not even a secret. This was one of the big reasons I decided to not become a pro coder and this is decades before being introduced to lisp and Smalltalk. The success of Pharo depends on people being open minded scientists but coding is nothing more than a closed minded religion masquareding as a science. Web developers being the worst, especially web dev bloggers. There is a reason why every single well designed software is highly unpopular. Fortunately there are exceptions like Pharo that have reignited my hope in investing in professional coding. Most of all open source have made it easy for that software to reach a bigger crowd. This is enough for me not to care. People were laughing at my face when I was saying that Blender will become one of the top three 3D apps , something unheard of for open source a decade ago. People were laughing at my face when iPad was released when I said that it will be a tool used by professional that will replace laptops . People were laughing at my face when Apple announced that it would no longer support flash and I said that this marked the end of flash . And so on. So I now code and mind my own business and keep my ideas to myself most of the time. Unless of course I find some open minds. People love progress but they hate change And I am no exception to this rule either, sad but true The good news is that things still do improve in the end, slowly but steadily. So yes this something worth fighting for. On Sun, 1 Jan 2017 at 18:28, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr> wrote: > Since people believe that new equals better, we market Pharo as new. > > And Pharo is new and it will continue to improve so this is not even a lie > > :) > > > > There is a reason why we decided to go that road and avoid to always say > > to people that we use a language > > designed nearly 40 years ago. > > > > But you can try :) > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 14:05:12 +0100, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Wow! *In just one day*, the Slashdot story added another thousand > > > pageviews > > > to my TechBeacon article! > > > > > > However, if you look at the comments, there's an awful lot of disdain for > > > Smalltalk. It appears that Slashdot is inhabited by a lot of ignorant and > > > opinionated programmers. I did not realize this. > > > > > > I'm trying to respond to the negative comments, but it's getting > > > overwhelming... > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > View this message in context: > > > http://forum.world.st/Slashdot-Submission-tp4928235p4928493.html > > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > > >

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

May this one ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Factbook Just guessing ;-) > On 1 Jan 2017, at 22:06, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > Hi Stef! > > Which "Collective Intelligence" book are you referring to? Googling it gives me plenty of hits that are not really a book > > Cheers > Alexandre > > Le 1 janv. 2017 Ã 21:32, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr> a Ã©crit : > >> On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 19:04:14 +0100, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> >> Page views are a pretty bad metric about quality of conversation. I remember the XKCD comic about "someone is wrong on the Internet"[1] and I wonder if the energy should be put there, at all. >> [1] https://www.xkcd.com/386/ >> In my case, some of my fellow programmers friends started with some friendly "bullying" about my choice of Smalltalk/Pharo, well also for my choice of fossil or anything not trendy or popular, and some of them joke about me being some kind of "cyberhypster" :-P. That was at the beginning, and instead of trying to convince them otherwise by talking I prefer to build and demo my Grafoscopio project in our hackerspace but with other people (journalist, students, philosophers, teachers) with the idea of data storytelling instead of programming. Now my fellow programmers friends show more interest (but I'm still a cyberhypster :-)). >> >> I like your process and it is an excellent one because at the end you get >> >> - an artefact >> - credibility (even if you always have people telling you something) >> - and even a community >> >> I like this idea of data analyst and journalist. I was planning to read and port to Pharo the collective intelligence book but I got distracted by my kids and I wrote some chapters for my new books. >> If you are interested by the collective intelligence book let me know (it took me some time to find it on torrent) I bought it but it still did not arrive to my place >> >> May be I should also be a cyberhypster :) but I like to shave from time to time :) >> >> Stef >>

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi Stef! Which "Collective Intelligence" book are you referring to? Googling it gives me plenty of hits that are not really a book Cheers Alexandre > Le 1 janv. 2017 Ã 21:32, stepharong <stepharong(a)free.fr> a Ã©crit : > > On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 19:04:14 +0100, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > > Page views are a pretty bad metric about quality of conversation. I remember the XKCD comic about "someone is wrong on the Internet"[1] and I wonder if the energy should be put there, at all. > [1] https://www.xkcd.com/386/ > In my case, some of my fellow programmers friends started with some friendly "bullying" about my choice of Smalltalk/Pharo, well also for my choice of fossil or anything not trendy or popular, and some of them joke about me being some kind of "cyberhypster" :-P. That was at the beginning, and instead of trying to convince them otherwise by talking I prefer to build and demo my Grafoscopio project in our hackerspace but with other people (journalist, students, philosophers, teachers) with the idea of data storytelling instead of programming. Now my fellow programmers friends show more interest (but I'm still a cyberhypster :-)). > > I like your process and it is an excellent one because at the end you get > > - an artefact > - credibility (even if you always have people telling you something) > - and even a community > > I like this idea of data analyst and journalist. I was planning to read and port to Pharo the collective intelligence book but I got distracted by my kids and I wrote some chapters for my new books. > If you are interested by the collective intelligence book let me know (it took me some time to find it on torrent) I bought it but it still did not arrive to my place > > May be I should also be a cyberhypster :) but I like to shave from time to time :) > > Stef >

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by stepharong

> I tried that tack. I said Pharo is only 8 years old, but some people > come back and tell me that Pharo is still essentially Smalltalk. It's > hard for me to disagree. Do not fight with such people. You should not care about assholes. Pharo is Pharo. Period. Come to have fun with us building something whatever it is. Stef

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by stepharong

On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 19:04:14 +0100, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > > Page views are a pretty bad metric about quality of conversation. I > remember the XKCD comic about "someone is wrong on the Internet"[1] and > I wonder if the energy should be put there, at all. > [1] https://www.xkcd.com/386/ > In my case, some of my fellow programmers friends started with some > friendly "bullying" about my choice of Smalltalk/Pharo, well also for my > choice of fossil or anything not trendy or popular, and >some of them > joke about me being some kind of "cyberhypster" :-P. That was at the > beginning, and instead of trying to convince them otherwise by talking I > prefer to build and demo my >Grafoscopio project in our hackerspace but > with other people (journalist, students, philosophers, teachers) with > the idea of data storytelling instead of programming. Now my fellow > programmers >friends show more interest (but I'm still a cyberhypster > :-)). I like your process and it is an excellent one because at the end you get - an artefact - credibility (even if you always have people telling you something) - and even a community I like this idea of data analyst and journalist. I was planning to read and port to Pharo the collective intelligence book but I got distracted by my kids and I wrote some chapters for my new books. If you are interested by the collective intelligence book let me know (it took me some time to find it on torrent) I bought it but it still did not arrive to my place May be I should also be a cyberhypster :) but I like to shave from time to time :) Stef

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] A Suggested Promotion

by serge.stinckwich＠gmail.com

Sonic Pi is really a nice project. I participate to the French translation of the documentation. Connecting Sonic Pi and Pharo would be nice ;-) Regards EnvoyÃ© de mon iPhone > Le 1 janv. 2017 Ã 19:34, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> a Ã©crit : > > Hi, > The rasberry pi and alike have a lot of potential for popularizing technology and building the future. Recently I found Sonic Pi and after the conversation between Ben and Hilaire about minecraft and minetest, I'm learning about the last one and Lua. I would like to bridge Pharo with that contexts and in fact my knowledge of Smalltalk is enabling me to learn Lua more easily. > > As you can see on [1][2] the approach to get younger involved is not competition, but collaboration and presenting their creations to wider audiences (works also for minetest/minecraft). That could work better for Pharo also. > [1] https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/sonic-pi-live-summer-school/ > [2] https://vimeo.com/110585077 > > Cheers, > > Offray > >> On 22/12/15 06:45, Richard Eng wrote: >> I have a suggestion for future Smalltalk advocates... >> >> The advent of Pi Zero last month is an interesting opportunity. This is a very, very cheap Raspberry Pi. Anyone can afford it. I'm thinking of kids, in particular. >> >> What if we could get kids to delve into Squeak or Pharo (Squeak is better optimized for Raspberry Pi) via the Pi Zero? A competition could be set up in various countries, such as Canada, Britain, Australia, Japan, etc., where the best student submission for a Smalltalk-based Pi Zero application would win a small scholarship prize (say, $500). A panel of judges in each country would decide the winner. >> >> The contest would be much less ambitious than my now-defunct Canadian Smalltalk Competition (CSC). Less control (no real need to prevent cheating). Easier to raise the prize money. The nice thing is that it would be a multi-national promotion (it's tough getting a national school competition like CSC going in other countries). >> >> Of course, because it's less ambitious, we can expect to reach fewer kids. Instead of thousands, probably more like hundreds. I could be totally wrong on this; I could be totally surprised! >> >> I might even come out of retirement to offer some creative services (eg, promotional graphics, websites, etc.). ð >> >> Anyway, it was just an interesting thought I had. Don't know if it stands up to scrutiny. >> >> Cheers, >> Richard >

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Slashdot Submission

by horrido

"Page views are a pretty bad metric about quality of conversation." Quite true. The goal of my Smalltalk campaign has always been about marketing or "branding." The goal has been to get /as many people as possible/ thinking and talking about Smalltalk. It's not so much about the quality of conversation as actually having a conversation at all. I explain here <https://medium.com/@richardeng/domo-arigato-mr-smalltalk-aa84e245beb9> . "...and instead of trying to convince them otherwise by talking I prefer to build and demo my Grafoscopio project in our hackerspace..." Indeed, and on Twitter I've tried to demonstrate Smalltalk/Pharo's usefulness by referencing various stories, open source contributions, and achievements (via #MakeSmalltalkGreatAgain). To get people to even look at my Twitter feed, though, I have to make a splash in social media. I think I've done that, but it took a heck of a lot of effort. More than two years' worth. Hundreds of articles and posts on Medium, Twitter, Facebook, Google+, LinkedIn, Hacker News, Reddit, Quora. Frankly, I'm exhausted. "Ps: I didn't find a lot of comments in the original article on TechBeacon or Slashdot." I need to inform you guys about something. A few weeks ago, TechBeacon switched from using the Livefyre commenting system to Disqus. In the process, ALL previous article comments were lost. TechBeacon says they'll try to restore those comments, but I don't see how they can do it. These commenting systems work by using a network of users who post the comments. Are they going to transfer existing Livefyre users to Disqus??? My TechBeacon article had a lot of good and *useful* comments. Their loss is most unfortunate. The voluminous Slashdot comments can be found at the bottom of the page: Slashdot story <https://developers.slashdot.org/story/16/12/31/0413250/can-learning-smallta…> . -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Slashdot-Submission-tp4928235p4928514.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 1, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] A Suggested Promotion

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi, The rasberry pi and alike have a lot of potential for popularizing technology and building the future. Recently I found Sonic Pi and after the conversation between Ben and Hilaire about minecraft and minetest, I'm learning about the last one and Lua. I would like to bridge Pharo with that contexts and in fact my knowledge of Smalltalk is enabling me to learn Lua more easily. As you can see on [1][2] the approach to get younger involved is not competition, but collaboration and presenting their creations to wider audiences (works also for minetest/minecraft). That could work better for Pharo also. [1] https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/sonic-pi-live-summer-school/ [2] https://vimeo.com/110585077 Cheers, Offray On 22/12/15 06:45, Richard Eng wrote: > I have a suggestion for future Smalltalk advocates... > > The advent of Pi Zero last month is an interesting opportunity. This > is a very, very cheap Raspberry Pi. Anyone can afford it. I'm thinking > of kids, in particular. > > What if we could get kids to delve into Squeak or Pharo (Squeak is > better optimized for Raspberry Pi) via the Pi Zero? A competition > could be set up in various countries, such as Canada, Britain, > Australia, Japan, etc., where the best student submission for a > Smalltalk-based Pi Zero application would win a small scholarship > prize (say, $500). A panel of judges in each country would decide the > winner. > > The contest would be much less ambitious than my now-defunct Canadian > Smalltalk Competition > <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1520902870/canadian-smalltalk-competit…> (CSC). > Less control (no real need to prevent cheating). Easier to raise the > prize money. The nice thing is that it would be a multi-national > promotion (it's tough getting a national school competition like CSC > going in other countries). > > Of course, because it's less ambitious, we can expect to reach fewer > kids. Instead of thousands, probably more like hundreds. I could be > totally wrong on this; I could be totally surprised! > > I might even come out of retirement > <https://medium.com/@richardeng/today-is-the-first-anniversary-of-smalltalk-…> to > offer some creative services (eg, promotional graphics, websites, > etc.). ð > > Anyway, it was just an interesting thought I had. Don't know if it > stands up to scrutiny. > > Cheers, > Richard

Jan. 1, 2017