January 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] About Git

by itlists＠schrievkrom.de

I would give you many more "+" - if you wish - for your opinion: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Another point I would like to mention: keep the source code locally or at least have an easy option to hold all source code locally. I've seen so many times, that git or one of the other git repositories are down - that's a very critical point. I would like to have a local repository, where I can import external packages and I work locally only. I also have thought several times that it would be nice to have a SQLite database holding all sources/packages. How much easier life would be with that. Other than that: I prefer my simple server directory holding monticello packages - in the Gemstone/S area. But I have to admit, that all the source code management stuff I've seen since ENVY in the Smalltalk community are pretty poor stuff - and even considering integrating git is not a step forward in terms of technical improvements, but only in terms of marketing and mainstream technology. Marten Am 14.01.2017 um 18:44 schrieb werner kassens: > Hi Dimitris, > i as a simple user tend to think about these things in simple terms: i > download a program, add something, upload my addition. lets take an > upload step, _one_ simple step with monticello: i upload something once > (git add), i upload it a second time (git commit), i upload it a third > time (git push), i try to upload it a fourth time (pull request), only > then i'm done (yes, there are possible shortcuts but so what). i'm sure > all this makes sense for the seasoned coder, but i certainly won't learn > that. <friendly grin> just as a small example how a user like me thinks > about this. > werner > -- Marten Feldtmann

Jan. 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Google visibility?

by stepharong

On Sat, 14 Jan 2017 10:09:02 +0100, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > >> On 14 Jan 2017, at 00:48, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas >> <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> >> On STHub, fortunately is live enough to let some of us being productive >> without the noise of git in front. > > So true. > > Let's stop bashing StHub: it works fine for 1000s of projects. I know we > are building something new and I am all for it, but as long as it is not > as user friendly as Monticello (all operations clean and simple in > Pharo, reliably) we are not there yet. > > The point is: we all know how to use git, but most Pharo developers > don't want to deal with file based Pharo code, at all, ever. + 10000 And so far we deliver and I would add that I appreciate particularly when I see code commits for improvements instead of just rants. > > Sven -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Jan. 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Google visibility?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Steph, Sven, Sean and everybody else, Am 15.01.17 um 09:41 schrieb stepharong: > On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 06:22:59 +0100, Sean P. DeNigris > <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> so it is not a good idea for an open source project, as I feared. >> >> +1. I was concerned from the beginning that our conversations would >> get more >> fragmented. I rarely have time to check slack and the mailing list >> recently >> seems to be missing quite a bit of deliberation that's happening >> elsewhere. > > > I agree same for me. > I cannot be connected all the time. I prefer emails because I can > consume them the way I want. And that's exactly why I still like the usenet: I can read/answer whenever I want, using my mail client (opera, thunderbird) and all is archived and can be searched from within the mail client or by a search engine, Usenet is a central place, accessible to anybody, anytime, and you don't have to search for mailing lists and go through strange opt-in/out mail exchanges, What was actually wrong with comp.lang.smalltalk and subforums that could only be fixed by opening new sites and mailing lists and whatnot that more or less all look abandoned these days? Joachim

Jan. 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Google visibility?

by stepharong

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 06:22:59 +0100, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >> so it is not a good idea for an open source project, as I feared. > > +1. I was concerned from the beginning that our conversations would get > more > fragmented. I rarely have time to check slack and the mailing list > recently > seems to be missing quite a bit of deliberation that's happening > elsewhere. I agree same for me. I cannot be connected all the time. I prefer emails because I can consume them the way I want. Stef > > My 2c > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Google-visibility-tp4929414p4929660.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Jan. 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Google visibility?

by Sean P. DeNigris

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > so it is not a good idea for an open source project, as I feared. +1. I was concerned from the beginning that our conversations would get more fragmented. I rarely have time to check slack and the mailing list recently seems to be missing quite a bit of deliberation that's happening elsewhere. My 2c ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Google-visibility-tp4929414p4929660.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 15, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Older Pharo on MacOS Sierra

by Hilaire

Will it work with Pharo 3 image? Le 14/01/2017 Ã 20:38, Esteban Lorenzano a Ã©crit : > oopsâ¦ I forget to update that one. > I will do it next week, thanks for reporting! > > Esteban -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Jan. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Older Pharo on MacOS Sierra

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 14 Jan 2017, at 18:04, Bruce O'Neel <bruce.oneel(a)pckswarms.ch> wrote: > > Hi, > > Thanks, that's very nice. > > There is also a mac build here: > > http://files.pharo.org/platform/ <http://files.pharo.org/platform/> > > and the pharo 4 one does not work. That's the one I found when I poked around and tested it. oopsâ¦ I forget to update that one. I will do it next week, thanks for reporting! Esteban > > cheers > > bruce > > > 14 janvier 2017 17:39 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> a Ã©crit: > >> On 14 Jan 2017, at 12:56, Bruce O'Neel <bruce.oneel(a)pckswarms.ch <mailto:bruce.oneel@pckswarms.ch>> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Pharo 4 might be hard on MacOS Sierra. >> >> There was a late change to the VM, at least for Squeak, to stop the black screen on startup on Sierra. Pharo 4 was before that change, and, for that matter, before Sierra. Pharo 5 was after and clearly has that change. > > I updated the VM on Pharo 4 to work also on Sierra, so this does not remains true :) > >> >> I'm pretty sure that the patches are one of these two: >> >> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/... <https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/commit/70ada3a6e4983891a5…> >> >> >> https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/... <https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/commit/f2b5cf27f81e50c655…> >> >> >> and I'm almost 100% sure that the second is the magic one. >> >> >> The simple solution would be to replace the VM in the Pharo 4 bundle with the VM in the Pharo 5 bundle, but, alas, the VM in the Pharo 5 bundle can't read the image from Pharo 4. > > no, it will not work, because Pharo 5 is spur and Pharo 4 is not > >> >> So it would look as if one's choices are: >> >> * Build the version of the VM from the Pharo 4 bundle, but, apply one or both of the patches above. >> * Figure out why Pharo 4 is necessary and move to Pharo 5. >> * Run a squeak V3 VM and hack something together. This might not give the full Pharo experience. >> >> To run the squeak V3 do the following: >> >> Download and unzip the newest Squeak V3 VM. >> >> https://bintray.com/opensmalltalk/vm/download_file... <https://bintray.com/opensmalltalk/vm/download_file?file_path=cog_macos32x86…> >> >> Alt click on the CocoaFast app and choose open. >> Quit. >> >> Download Pharo 4. Alt click on Pharo 4 and choose "Show Package Contents." Navigate to Contents -> Resources. Drag the "Pharo4.0.image" overtop the CocoaFast app and it launches. You do have startup errors, so, you now have some time to play around. >> >> I realize that neither look so easy, though the second one is probably the wisest just because the Pharo group moves quickly. > > â¦ or you can download the Pharo 4.0 VM (from here: http://files.pharo.org/get-files/40/ <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/40/>) and run your Pharo 4.0 and Pharo 3.0 app without problems (I didnât try Pharo 2.0 and 1.4, but I do not see why they wouldnât work). > now, Pharo 1.0 will not work I think, because it is not a Stack image (it didnât existed at the time)â¦ there yes, you will need one of the legacy VMs that we do not maintain anymoreâ¦ for that, there are some VMs around, but I frankly would migrate any 1.0 based imageâ¦ is work (and maybe hard work), but at the end it will pay :) > > if what you have is a OneClick package, the best approach is to extract your Pharo*.image, Pharo*.changes and Pharo*.sources and then use the Pharo 4.0 VM with them, > > cheers, > Esteban > >> >> cheers >> >> bruce >> >> >> 14 janvier 2017 12:19 Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu <mailto:hilaire@drgeo.eu>> a Ã©crit: >> I don't know yet Jeff. I don't have either a macos sierra at hand. Once >> a Mac OS Sierra user reported me the problem your are mentioning[1], but >> I did not get very far investigating the problem. >> >> For me it is not clear at all from[2] if there is any Mac VM 4.0. May be >> Esteban can enlighten us. >> >> [1] http://forum.drgeo.eu/DrGeo-pb-mac-os-Sierra-td402... <http://forum.drgeo.eu/DrGeo-pb-mac-os-Sierra-td4024957.html> >> [2] http://pharo.org/download <http://pharo.org/download> >> Le 14/01/2017 Ã 11:35, J.F. Rick a Ã©crit : >> > So, what's the proper procedure? I just moved my Pharo4 to the >> > Application directory and it didn't work? Launched but the window is >> > black. Is there a new Pharo4 VM for MacOS? If so, where is it? >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Jeff >> >> -- >> Dr. Geo >> http://drgeo.eu <http://drgeo.eu/>

Jan. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] About Git

by werner kassens

Hi Dimitris, i as a simple user tend to think about these things in simple terms: i download a program, add something, upload my addition. lets take an upload step, _one_ simple step with monticello: i upload something once (git add), i upload it a second time (git commit), i upload it a third time (git push), i try to upload it a fourth time (pull request), only then i'm done (yes, there are possible shortcuts but so what). i'm sure all this makes sense for the seasoned coder, but i certainly won't learn that. <friendly grin> just as a small example how a user like me thinks about this. werner On 01/14/2017 03:14 PM, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > > On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 3:21 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu > <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: > > > > On 14 Jan 2017, at 12:58, Dimitris Chloupis > <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > I fail to see what is user friendly about Monticello , I find > its GUI and the total workflow really bad, certainly the worst VCS > GUI I have ever used. But I will admit this is my personal taste > and my opinion that can be safely ignore. > > That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I am pretty > sure you don't speak for the majority of Smalltalk users in general. > > > The only way to know for sure is to do some form of survey, but as I > said its my opinion. Even if others agree with me, we still may have > different opinions. > > I don't understand what is bad about MC in the IDE: your code is > easily put in packages, you look at changes at the method and > class definition level, you compare and commit, look at incoming > changes and that's it. Merging is just as easy or difficult as > anywhere else. > > > My reason for not liking Monticello > a) GUI looks ugly > b) GUI opens needless windows (a generic Pharo problem) > c) No syntax highlighting in case of Browsing online code (diffs, > changes etc) > d) No visualization of the commit history. > e) the usual problems with documentation > f) No easy undo functionality > g) Need to press a refresh button for monticello to be kept up to date > h) Monticello contacts irrelevant online repos even for local commits, > as a result a slow connection can freeze the image (WTF) > i) No clear indication of where the history branches and where it merges > > and the list goes on , but those are the main > > I wonder even if Monticello improved at all since Pharo forked from > Squeak. > > It is true that StHub is not actively maintained, but that does > not change the fact that it just works. Indeed certain features > were/are missing, nothing is perfect. Given the load is has to > endure it is pretty stable (remember that SqueakSource collapsed > under the Pharo load) even if it needs an occasional reset. > > "nothing is perfect" is a lousy excuse and a cliche. Yes it works but > this is not the image I think that will inspire newcomers to use Pharo. > > Remember we have to compete with languages like Ruby and Python . > > Here is an example. I have this pull request open > > https://github.com/svenvc/ston/pull/17/files > > it is so big, changes so much that I cannot even begin figuring > out what happened. I want my in-IDE tools that understand Smalltalk. > > > One sec... one sec > are you trying to tell me that this a good commit ? > https://github.com/svenvc/ston/pull/17/commits/5c03481aeda7804317e6d9efbb76… > > seriously ? > > 84 files changed in ONE commit ? > > seriously ? > > please do not blame Git if you guys have terrible workflows. This > would be even bigger mess with the Pharo VCS . > > But this definitely not a good way to use Git or any VCS. > > Let be serious here, I know you guys love Smalltalk > But common > A bit of common sense would not hurt. > If someone have sent me such a pull request I would have rejected it > in an instant without even looking at the code. > > But if you guys like to deal with this kind of mess inside the Pharo > image, be my guest. I prefer the Git way of using Git and not the > "whatever" way and avoid the mess as much as possible. > > One day (soon) the new tools (Iceberg ?) will allow me to do that, > allow me to see git as just an opaque back end, allow me to remain > inside the Pharo IDE (again, not that I can not or do not work in > a terminal, far from it, I just don't want to for my Pharo workflow) > > So basically the mentality here is "give me Iceberg so I do not have > to learn Git or work like Git" , yeah good luck with that one. > > I am not against Iceberg but I am sure it will be used as an excuse , > like with many other things to bash Git and other non-Smalltalk > technologies, each time it fails. > > You already compare Iceberg with using Git from the terminal. Of > course you will not mention SourceTree , GitUP, SmartGit , GitKraken > and a ton of other brilliant Git GUIs . Hell even Github offers its > own Git GUI client that makes using Git a breeze. > > I think you greatly overestimate the opinion that people have about > Smalltalk, I can assure you its both positive and negative and VCS > falls under the negative category. I would like to see a community > that treats Smalltalk not as the holy grail. > > The pull request example you used against Pharo and Git shows exactly > this kind of attitude , taking extremely bad situations that can be > easily be avoided as an excuse to present Smalltalk as "the superior > tool". > > And when people do not bite the bait, you blame Smalltalk and > emphasize that Pharo is not really Smalltalk but Smalltalk inspired. > > I have never been part of this ideology and will never going to be. > > You guys are amazing and building a great tools, but in so many cases > you just lose touch with reality. > > You ask me how many Smalltalkers agree with me, let me ask you how > many coders in general you think would agree with you ? > > I am trying to avoid having this kind of discussions but on the other > hand I do not think all this denial is a good thing for Pharo. > > Another thing I like to stress here, is that your goal to create a > self contained enviroment fully implemented in Smalltalk sorry I meant > Pharo, will not happens. > > Gone are the times of 70, 80s and even 90s that a simple GUI could cut > it. Nowdays a modern coder uses a vast array of tools at his arsenal > because coding has become very complex to accomodate the high > expectations of modern users. We do not have the time, the money or > the community to build a tool that can compete on equal terms with the > ocean of tools that exist out there. > > People do not use Git because they cannot use far simpler VCS , of > course not. They use because they know that projects grow and demands > changes and the time comes that they wish they have picked Git in the > first place because the more the project grows the more difficult it > becomes to switch VCS.

Jan. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Older Pharo on MacOS Sierra

by Bruce O'Neel

Hi, Thanks, that's very nice. There is also a mac build here: [http://files.pharo.org/platform/](http://files.pharo.org/platform/) and the pharo 4 one does not work.Â That's the one I found when I poked around and tested it. cheers bruce On 14 Jan 2017, at 12:56, Bruce O'Neel wrote:Hi,Pharo 4 might be hard on MacOS Sierra.There was a late change to the VM, at least for Squeak, to stop the black screen on startup on Sierra.Â Â Â Pharo 4 was before that change, and, for that matter, before Sierra.Â Pharo 5 was after and clearly has that change.I updated the VM on Pharo 4 to work also on Sierra, so this does not remains true :)I'm pretty sure that the patches are one of these two:https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/...https://github.com… I'm almost 100% sure that the second is the magic one.The simple solution would be to replace the VM in the Pharo 4 bundle with the VM in the Pharo 5 bundle, but, alas, the VM in the Pharo 5 bundle can't read the image from Pharo 4.no, it will not work, because Pharo 5 is spur and Pharo 4 is notSo it would look as if one's choices are:* Build the version of the VM from the Pharo 4 bundle, but, apply one or both of the patches above.* Figure out why Pharo 4 is necessary and move to Pharo 5.* Run a squeak V3 VM and hack something together.Â This might not give the full Pharo experience.To run the squeak V3 do the following:Download and unzip the newest Squeak V3 VM.https://bintray.com/opensmalltalk/vm/download_file...Alt click on the CocoaFast app and choose open.Quit.Download Pharo 4.Â Alt click on Pharo 4 and choose "Show Package Contents."Â Navigate to Contents -> Resources.Â Drag the "Pharo4.0.image" overtop the CocoaFast app and it launches.Â You do have startup errors, so, you now have some time to play around.I realize that neither look so easy, though the second one is probably the wisest just because the Pharo group moves quickly.ï¿½ or you can download the Pharo 4.0 VM (from here:Â http://files.pharo.org/get-files/40/) and run your Pharo 4.0 and Pharo 3.0 app without problems (I didnï¿½t try Pharo 2.0 and 1.4, but I do not see why they wouldnï¿½t work).Â now, Pharo 1.0 will not work I think, because it is not a Stack image (it didnï¿½t existed at the time)ï¿½ there yes, you will need one of the legacy VMs that we do not maintain anymoreï¿½ for that, there are some VMs around, but I frankly would migrate any 1.0 based imageï¿½ is work (and maybe hard work), but at the end it will pay :)if what you have is a OneClick package, the best approach is to extract your Pharo*.image, Pharo*.changes and Pharo*.sources and then use the Pharo 4.0 VM with them,cheers,Â Estebancheersbruce14 janvier 2017 12:19 Hilaire a Ã©crit:I don't know yet Jeff. I don't have either a macos sierra at hand. Once a Mac OS Sierra user reported me the problem your are mentioning[1], but I did not get very far investigating the problem. For me it is not clear at all from[2] if there is any Mac VM 4.0. May be Esteban can enlighten us. [1] http://forum.drgeo.eu/DrGeo-pb-mac-os-Sierra-td402... [2] http://pharo.org/download Le 14/01/2017 Ã 11:35, J.F. Rick a Ã©crit : > So, what's the proper procedure? I just moved my Pharo4 to the > Application directory and it didn't work? Launched but the window is > black. Is there a new Pharo4 VM for MacOS? If so, where is it? > > Thanks, > > Jeff -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Jan. 14, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Older Pharo on MacOS Sierra

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 14 Jan 2017, at 12:56, Bruce O'Neel <bruce.oneel(a)pckswarms.ch> wrote: > > Hi, > > Pharo 4 might be hard on MacOS Sierra. > > There was a late change to the VM, at least for Squeak, to stop the black screen on startup on Sierra. Pharo 4 was before that change, and, for that matter, before Sierra. Pharo 5 was after and clearly has that change. I updated the VM on Pharo 4 to work also on Sierra, so this does not remains true :) > > I'm pretty sure that the patches are one of these two: > > https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/... <https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/commit/70ada3a6e4983891a5…> > > > https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/... <https://github.com/OpenSmalltalk/opensmalltalk-vm/commit/f2b5cf27f81e50c655…> > > > and I'm almost 100% sure that the second is the magic one. > > > The simple solution would be to replace the VM in the Pharo 4 bundle with the VM in the Pharo 5 bundle, but, alas, the VM in the Pharo 5 bundle can't read the image from Pharo 4. no, it will not work, because Pharo 5 is spur and Pharo 4 is not > > So it would look as if one's choices are: > > * Build the version of the VM from the Pharo 4 bundle, but, apply one or both of the patches above. > * Figure out why Pharo 4 is necessary and move to Pharo 5. > * Run a squeak V3 VM and hack something together. This might not give the full Pharo experience. > > To run the squeak V3 do the following: > > Download and unzip the newest Squeak V3 VM. > > https://bintray.com/opensmalltalk/vm/download_file... <https://bintray.com/opensmalltalk/vm/download_file?file_path=cog_macos32x86…> > > Alt click on the CocoaFast app and choose open. > Quit. > > Download Pharo 4. Alt click on Pharo 4 and choose "Show Package Contents." Navigate to Contents -> Resources. Drag the "Pharo4.0.image" overtop the CocoaFast app and it launches. You do have startup errors, so, you now have some time to play around. > > I realize that neither look so easy, though the second one is probably the wisest just because the Pharo group moves quickly. â¦ or you can download the Pharo 4.0 VM (from here: http://files.pharo.org/get-files/40/ <http://files.pharo.org/get-files/40/>) and run your Pharo 4.0 and Pharo 3.0 app without problems (I didnât try Pharo 2.0 and 1.4, but I do not see why they wouldnât work). now, Pharo 1.0 will not work I think, because it is not a Stack image (it didnât existed at the time)â¦ there yes, you will need one of the legacy VMs that we do not maintain anymoreâ¦ for that, there are some VMs around, but I frankly would migrate any 1.0 based imageâ¦ is work (and maybe hard work), but at the end it will pay :) if what you have is a OneClick package, the best approach is to extract your Pharo*.image, Pharo*.changes and Pharo*.sources and then use the Pharo 4.0 VM with them, cheers, Esteban > > cheers > > bruce > > > 14 janvier 2017 12:19 Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> a Ã©crit: > I don't know yet Jeff. I don't have either a macos sierra at hand. Once > a Mac OS Sierra user reported me the problem your are mentioning[1], but > I did not get very far investigating the problem. > > For me it is not clear at all from[2] if there is any Mac VM 4.0. May be > Esteban can enlighten us. > > [1] http://forum.drgeo.eu/DrGeo-pb-mac-os-Sierra-td402... <http://forum.drgeo.eu/DrGeo-pb-mac-os-Sierra-td4024957.html> > [2] http://pharo.org/download <http://pharo.org/download> > Le 14/01/2017 Ã 11:35, J.F. Rick a Ã©crit : > > So, what's the proper procedure? I just moved my Pharo4 to the > > Application directory and it didn't work? Launched but the window is > > black. Is there a new Pharo4 VM for MacOS? If so, where is it? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jeff > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu <http://drgeo.eu/> > > > >

Jan. 14, 2017