November 2016 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] How does Boolean ifTrue work?

by Igor Stasenko

On 3 November 2016 at 22:36, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Igor you confuse me with someone else I never asked why Smalltalk doesn't > have... nor I said that I want static types and interfaces. I am actually > trying to use a Pharo instead of C++ with Unreal. > > I hate static types and I hate interfaces. Only pointed that is possible. > I don't like languages that think they are smarter than me. I love my > freedom thank you very much and I love Pharo as it is language wise. > sorry, i confused you with the original question of CodeDmitry. > On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 at 23:16, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 3 November 2016 at 07:11, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Actually sorry Igor but you are wrong, you just defeated the purpose of >> Smalltalk. To expose you to the internals. Of course you can implement >> interfaces. You can even implement static types. You can do anything you >> want. >> >> >> So, why you asking then 'why smalltalk doesn't have .... ' when you know >> that in smalltalk you can do anything you want? >> Yes, you can do anything you want, but not everything you can do makes >> sense to do. >> And it doesn't defeats the purpose of smalltalk, it just defeats the >> common sense. >> >> And last one, i don't understand what kind of 'exposure to internals' you >> are talking about. >> In smalltalk people used to write a functional tests, to check that your >> code behaves as intended. Now you proposing to introduce static interfaces, >> borrowed from other lanuages, the only purpose of which is to declare that >> your code *could* behave as intended, no guarantees , nothing. >> Just a set of formal rules on top of existing ones, with ZERO end effect >> and benefits. >> You want it? You are free to implement it. Good look with it.. >> >> I wonder, why so many people think that if they put soft pillows >> everywhere, seal the doors (because outside is dangerous) , and after >> sealing and pillowing everything they happily rest with thought 'now we are >> safe'.. not realizing, that they built a perfect jail for themselves, >> without any means to escape from it and do something in real world. >> >> The compiler is written in Smalltalk after all. >> >> On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 at 23:02, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> If you want to ensure that your class(es) comply with certain protocol, >> just write a test that covers the protocol and checks that class instances >> will understand messages you want it to understand. >> But there's no way to restrict your class to comply to whole protocol >> once at a time, because tools made in a way, that you populating your class >> with methods, each method is add individually and compiled separately, and >> the only validation, the compiler is capable of is basically compliance >> with smalltalk syntax. And it doesn't cares about higher lever requirement, >> like whether your class turns to be 'valid' because of a method you just >> added, ready to be used and for what. >> Even more, there's no way to connect all those 'interface' formalisation >> garbage rules with send sites (the place where you actually invoking one or >> another method of one of potetial implementor of your interface), so it >> makes no sense to do any (pre)validation on whatever class/object in a >> system in order to check whether it conforms with it or not. >> That's " Why don't Smalltalk or Smalltalklike languages have checked >> interfaces?" >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] How does Boolean ifTrue work?

by phil＠highoctane.be

"not realizing, that they built a perfect jail for themselves, without any means to escape from it and do something in real world." Right on Igor. I hate jails. Pharo is such a breath of fresh air. I can kill myself in all kinds of ways, each of which led a step further on the path towards enlightment in coderland. Pharo|Smalltalk: also acts as a pretty good coder filter. Phil On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 10:15 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 3 November 2016 at 07:11, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Actually sorry Igor but you are wrong, you just defeated the purpose of >> Smalltalk. To expose you to the internals. Of course you can implement >> interfaces. You can even implement static types. You can do anything you >> want. >> >> > So, why you asking then 'why smalltalk doesn't have .... ' when you know > that in smalltalk you can do anything you want? > Yes, you can do anything you want, but not everything you can do makes > sense to do. > And it doesn't defeats the purpose of smalltalk, it just defeats the > common sense. > > And last one, i don't understand what kind of 'exposure to internals' you > are talking about. > In smalltalk people used to write a functional tests, to check that your > code behaves as intended. Now you proposing to introduce static interfaces, > borrowed from other lanuages, the only purpose of which is to declare that > your code *could* behave as intended, no guarantees , nothing. > Just a set of formal rules on top of existing ones, with ZERO end effect > and benefits. > You want it? You are free to implement it. Good look with it.. > > I wonder, why so many people think that if they put soft pillows > everywhere, seal the doors (because outside is dangerous) , and after > sealing and pillowing everything they happily rest with thought 'now we are > safe'.. not realizing, that they built a perfect jail for themselves, > without any means to escape from it and do something in real world. > > The compiler is written in Smalltalk after all. >> >> On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 at 23:02, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> If you want to ensure that your class(es) comply with certain protocol, >> just write a test that covers the protocol and checks that class instances >> will understand messages you want it to understand. >> But there's no way to restrict your class to comply to whole protocol >> once at a time, because tools made in a way, that you populating your class >> with methods, each method is add individually and compiled separately, and >> the only validation, the compiler is capable of is basically compliance >> with smalltalk syntax. And it doesn't cares about higher lever requirement, >> like whether your class turns to be 'valid' because of a method you just >> added, ready to be used and for what. >> Even more, there's no way to connect all those 'interface' formalisation >> garbage rules with send sites (the place where you actually invoking one or >> another method of one of potetial implementor of your interface), so it >> makes no sense to do any (pre)validation on whatever class/object in a >> system in order to check whether it conforms with it or not. >> That's " Why don't Smalltalk or Smalltalklike languages have checked >> interfaces?" >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] How does Boolean ifTrue work?

by Dimitris Chloupis

Igor you confuse me with someone else I never asked why Smalltalk doesn't have... nor I said that I want static types and interfaces. I am actually trying to use a Pharo instead of C++ with Unreal. I hate static types and I hate interfaces. Only pointed that is possible. I don't like languages that think they are smarter than me. I love my freedom thank you very much and I love Pharo as it is language wise. On Thu, 3 Nov 2016 at 23:16, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 3 November 2016 at 07:11, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Actually sorry Igor but you are wrong, you just defeated the purpose of > Smalltalk. To expose you to the internals. Of course you can implement > interfaces. You can even implement static types. You can do anything you > want. > > > So, why you asking then 'why smalltalk doesn't have .... ' when you know > that in smalltalk you can do anything you want? > Yes, you can do anything you want, but not everything you can do makes > sense to do. > And it doesn't defeats the purpose of smalltalk, it just defeats the > common sense. > > And last one, i don't understand what kind of 'exposure to internals' you > are talking about. > In smalltalk people used to write a functional tests, to check that your > code behaves as intended. Now you proposing to introduce static interfaces, > borrowed from other lanuages, the only purpose of which is to declare that > your code *could* behave as intended, no guarantees , nothing. > Just a set of formal rules on top of existing ones, with ZERO end effect > and benefits. > You want it? You are free to implement it. Good look with it.. > > I wonder, why so many people think that if they put soft pillows > everywhere, seal the doors (because outside is dangerous) , and after > sealing and pillowing everything they happily rest with thought 'now we are > safe'.. not realizing, that they built a perfect jail for themselves, > without any means to escape from it and do something in real world. > > The compiler is written in Smalltalk after all. > > On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 at 23:02, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > If you want to ensure that your class(es) comply with certain protocol, > just write a test that covers the protocol and checks that class instances > will understand messages you want it to understand. > But there's no way to restrict your class to comply to whole protocol once > at a time, because tools made in a way, that you populating your class with > methods, each method is add individually and compiled separately, and the > only validation, the compiler is capable of is basically compliance with > smalltalk syntax. And it doesn't cares about higher lever requirement, like > whether your class turns to be 'valid' because of a method you just added, > ready to be used and for what. > Even more, there's no way to connect all those 'interface' formalisation > garbage rules with send sites (the place where you actually invoking one or > another method of one of potetial implementor of your interface), so it > makes no sense to do any (pre)validation on whatever class/object in a > system in order to check whether it conforms with it or not. > That's " Why don't Smalltalk or Smalltalklike languages have checked > interfaces?" > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. >

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] How does Boolean ifTrue work?

by Igor Stasenko

On 3 November 2016 at 07:11, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Actually sorry Igor but you are wrong, you just defeated the purpose of > Smalltalk. To expose you to the internals. Of course you can implement > interfaces. You can even implement static types. You can do anything you > want. > > So, why you asking then 'why smalltalk doesn't have .... ' when you know that in smalltalk you can do anything you want? Yes, you can do anything you want, but not everything you can do makes sense to do. And it doesn't defeats the purpose of smalltalk, it just defeats the common sense. And last one, i don't understand what kind of 'exposure to internals' you are talking about. In smalltalk people used to write a functional tests, to check that your code behaves as intended. Now you proposing to introduce static interfaces, borrowed from other lanuages, the only purpose of which is to declare that your code *could* behave as intended, no guarantees , nothing. Just a set of formal rules on top of existing ones, with ZERO end effect and benefits. You want it? You are free to implement it. Good look with it.. I wonder, why so many people think that if they put soft pillows everywhere, seal the doors (because outside is dangerous) , and after sealing and pillowing everything they happily rest with thought 'now we are safe'.. not realizing, that they built a perfect jail for themselves, without any means to escape from it and do something in real world. The compiler is written in Smalltalk after all. > > On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 at 23:02, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > If you want to ensure that your class(es) comply with certain protocol, > just write a test that covers the protocol and checks that class instances > will understand messages you want it to understand. > But there's no way to restrict your class to comply to whole protocol once > at a time, because tools made in a way, that you populating your class with > methods, each method is add individually and compiled separately, and the > only validation, the compiler is capable of is basically compliance with > smalltalk syntax. And it doesn't cares about higher lever requirement, like > whether your class turns to be 'valid' because of a method you just added, > ready to be used and for what. > Even more, there's no way to connect all those 'interface' formalisation > garbage rules with send sites (the place where you actually invoking one or > another method of one of potetial implementor of your interface), so it > makes no sense to do any (pre)validation on whatever class/object in a > system in order to check whether it conforms with it or not. > That's " Why don't Smalltalk or Smalltalklike languages have checked > interfaces?" > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Keeping data with an application

by sergio ruiz

I have a few projects that are more loosey goosey on timelines.. this one, people are wanting to see this info pretty soonish.. On November 3, 2016 at 2:23:39 PM, Dale Henrichs (dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com) wrote: I like the play around part:) Ping me when you find the time! ---- peace, sergio photographer, journalist, visionary Public Key:Â http://bit.ly/29z9fG0 #BitMessageÂ BM-NBaswViL21xqgg9STRJjaJaUoyiNe2dV http://www.Village-Buzz.com http://www.ThoseOptimizeGuys.com http://www.coffee-black.com http://www.painlessfrugality.com http://www.twitter.com/sergio_101 http://www.facebook.com/sergio101

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] [ALERT] Pharo by Example version 5 is about to be released

by stepharo

Le 3/11/16 Ã 19:28, Nicolai Hess a Ã©crit : > > > 2016-10-27 13:32 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>>: > > In case someone missed it I will be doing a release for version 5 > (pharo version = pbe version) this weekend , since we had Pharo 7 > initiated few days ago. > > Essentially that means that the repo will be tagged for version 5, > which means a git commit is associated as a last commit for that > version and there will be a frozen release - download for Pharo by > Example version 5. After that we move to Pharo By Example version > 6 or PBE6 for short > > The repo wont change otherwise and the process of submitting > commits, pull requests and issues remains the same. > > If you have found a flaw of any sort in the documentation , please > open an issue in the github issue tracker that can be found here > > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample/issues > <https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample/issues> > > I will try to fix any problem reported but if I cannot , the fix > will have to move to version 6 > > As always thanks to all people contributing into the impossible > .... making Pharo more amazing > > If you want to contribute feel free to do so with a pull request. > > Does not matter if you are beginner because even minor corrections > like correcting mistakes in the grammar or content of the text, > updated pictures, or just a few lines of extra info are more than > enough and more than welcomed. Many Pharo beginners have already > done so . > > -Salute to fellow Guardians of The Light > > > > Which image version will be the "reference" image for this book? Pharo > 50762 ? yes STef >

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] [ALERT] Pharo by Example version 5 is about to be released

by Nicolai Hess

2016-10-27 13:32 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > In case someone missed it I will be doing a release for version 5 (pharo > version = pbe version) this weekend , since we had Pharo 7 initiated few > days ago. > > Essentially that means that the repo will be tagged for version 5, which > means a git commit is associated as a last commit for that version and > there will be a frozen release - download for Pharo by Example version 5. > After that we move to Pharo By Example version 6 or PBE6 for short > > The repo wont change otherwise and the process of submitting commits, pull > requests and issues remains the same. > > If you have found a flaw of any sort in the documentation , please open an > issue in the github issue tracker that can be found here > > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample/issues > > I will try to fix any problem reported but if I cannot , the fix will have > to move to version 6 > > As always thanks to all people contributing into the impossible .... > making Pharo more amazing > > If you want to contribute feel free to do so with a pull request. > > Does not matter if you are beginner because even minor corrections like > correcting mistakes in the grammar or content of the text, updated > pictures, or just a few lines of extra info are more than enough and more > than welcomed. Many Pharo beginners have already done so . > > -Salute to fellow Guardians of The Light > Which image version will be the "reference" image for this book? Pharo 50762 ?

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Keeping data with an application

by Dale Henrichs

Sergio, I like the play around part:) Ping me when you find the time! Dale On 11/02/2016 07:21 AM, sergio ruiz wrote: >> >> For this project, I want to make progress based on feedback from >> users ... there are lots of different directions that could be taken >> from this starting point and I want to be driven by user feedback ... >> so if you are willing to provide feedback I am willing to work with >> you ... >> > > i think that for my current project, I want to move REALLY quickly. so > it might not be a good fit, but i would totally like to play around > with it under different use cases. > > > > ---- > peace, > sergio > photographer, journalist, visionary > > Public Key: http://bit.ly/29z9fG0 > #BitMessage BM-NBaswViL21xqgg9STRJjaJaUoyiNe2dV > http://www.Village-Buzz.com > http://www.ThoseOptimizeGuys.com > http://www.coffee-black.com > http://www.painlessfrugality.com > http://www.twitter.com/sergio_101 > http://www.facebook.com/sergio101

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] MOOC TOC cleanup

by stepharo

Le 3/11/16 Ã 18:05, Siemen Baader a Ã©crit : > Hi Stef, > > Sure. > Let me know how I can help. > I will forward your mail to christelle that manages the mooc for us > > > Thanks. I'm looking forward to hear from her. She translated the page but she is busy I forwarded the email to you. > > > Siemen > did you see the web portal > http://rmod-pharo-mooc.lille.inria.fr/MOOC/WebPortal/co/pharo.html > <http://rmod-pharo-mooc.lille.inria.fr/MOOC/WebPortal/co/pharo.html> (we > > should add a pointer from http://mooc.pharo.org to it) > and also the http://mooc.pharo.org page? because we have the full > control on this one. > And this is on my todo to make sure that people can get an archive > with > the complete mooc nicely packaged. > Now if you want to help it would be great. > > > Sure, we could either do it at fun-mooc.fr <http://fun-mooc.fr> or > mooc.pharo.org <http://mooc.pharo.org>. The latter is cleaner and open > to all. How do you generate it, and where is the source? I'd like to > have a look. The source is on github. https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoMooc-website > What is the role of WebPortal? the idea was to propose a package to user and we were paid and forced to use this format. I would prefer plain HTML (or even pillar). > > best, > Siemen > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > View this message in context: Re: MOOC TOC cleanup > <http://forum.world.st/MOOC-TOC-cleanup-tp4921304p4921361.html> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com.

Nov. 3, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] MOOC TOC cleanup

by Siemen Baader

Hi Stef, Sure. > Let me know how I can help. > I will forward your mail to christelle that manages the mooc for us > Thanks. I'm looking forward to hear from her. > Siemen > did you see the web portal > http://rmod-pharo-mooc.lille.inria.fr/MOOC/WebPortal/co/pharo.html (we > should add a pointer from http://mooc.pharo.org to it) > and also the http://mooc.pharo.org page? because we have the full > control on this one. > And this is on my todo to make sure that people can get an archive with > the complete mooc nicely packaged. > Now if you want to help it would be great. > Sure, we could either do it at fun-mooc.fr or mooc.pharo.org. The latter is cleaner and open to all. How do you generate it, and where is the source? I'd like to have a look. What is the role of WebPortal? best, Siemen -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/MOOC-TOC-cleanup-tp4921304p4921361.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Nov. 3, 2016