November 2016 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] About balkanisation

by Tudor Girba

Hi Stef, I think that you are raising a valid point, and I actually agree with it. But I think there is another side of the coin as well. I think that right now we are in between worlds and this is not quite beneficial. Switching to GitHub is a significant effort, and treating it as business as usual will not work. That is why I think it is so important that we committed to the move for Pharo 7 and that we invest in the infrastructure. But, this will not be enough either if we do not get people to exercise it as soon as possible. To give an example. When the first version of Iceberg was announced, I started to use it for a couple of projects. I stumbled across problems that prevented me from working for several weeks. I could have easily switched to SmalltalkHub, but I did not. I connected with Nicolas and we worked through those problems. Btw, Nicolas is doing a wonderful job, and people should not take this for granted. He tends to be shy, so if you see him around, please give him a hug and let him know that we count on him. Or better yet, use Iceberg for your projects and send him your feedback :). I am sure that there are more problems ahead, and the only way to go through them is committing to go through them. This will push us back for a while, but I really believe in the promise once we get on the other side. I actually think that GitHub is not really a good match for Pharo from a conceptual point of view (the mismatch between what it offers and what we need is quite large), but it is an engineering decision that makes perfect sense for the future. So, yes, we should take GitHub with a grain of salt, and make it a goal to not change much our concept of what makes sense for Pharo. For example, we should not give up on having to resort to the file system. That is why it is so important to make Iceberg (this is not for you Stef because I know you know it, but for others :)). And I certainly agree that we should look for sane patterns, but as it goes with patterns, they emerge out of practice. I think we should aim for limiting the time of being in between the two worlds. It will not be pleasant, and we can only do it if we stick together and go through it as soon as possible. Cheers, Doru > On Nov 6, 2016, at 1:05 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Hi > > I would like that you think a bit about our community and that there is a value in using common tools > > to share and develop common libraries. Because to me it feels like we are getting balkanize. > > > It may look super cool and be hyper trendy to use github (because like that you can say that you use latest hyper cool > > features), but I would like to ask especially people building libraries to pay attention that it is important > > that other people can contribute back easily and that there is an easy way to load/contribute. > > Today I experienced Bloc > > - I cannot load code and I cannot contribute. > > - I saw mdl with a mixture between smalltalkhub and github (sounds super hyper cool) and I saw paul not being able to contribute :( > > > Yes you can say that monticello sucks yes it is terrible yes we all fell like Cobol programmers but at the end of the day. > > Yes the herb is always greener elsewhere. Yes yes yes. Let us take some facts. > > We managed pharo and moose with it over the last 8 years successfully and Pharo and moose are not 5 packages together from > > what I can see. So pay attention about the decision you take. > > Now we will provide git support (this is 8 months that nicolas is exclusively working/thinking/dreaming > > about that) and that we are doing experiments (Guille is managing the bootstrap in github). > > Now when everybody will have its own little project lost on github (I do not count the amount of time I do not find pillar on github because I forget > > that it is called pillar-markup), what will we do. > > So we need an infrastructure to handle this and christophe is working on this. > > I think that you should consider the accidental complexity as something that we can minimise by using patterns and common practices. > > Now you can think that I'm an idiot and that I have no vision (be my guest) but we should pay attention because we are a small community. > > Stef > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Presenting is storytelling."

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] About balkanisation

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 6 Nov 2016, at 16:27, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > A biggy one is the pharo repo of the pharo image on github. Its a mess. > > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commits/6.0 > > seriously, Github makes us visible , this does not look good at all. why not ? how is this different from a multi file commit in any other language ?

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] About balkanisation

by Dimitris Chloupis

If you really want to embrace Github , kill Smalltalkhub. Smalltalkhub should have been dead years ago. Its unmaintained anyway apart from when it crashes and Esteban fixes. Smalltalkhub has been a constant state from crashes since 2011 when I joined Pharo community. Give people a month to move their projects in github and then kill it. At worst give only read access the same way squeakers made the old squeaksource read only. Another thing that must be fixed is the file format chosen for git, the idea to fragment source code to a billion diffirent source code files each one containing a method or class definition is problematic both for viewing those files offline and online. There is very little chance that if I give a link to my github repo to an outsider to take a look at my code that he will have the patience to navigate 10 files to read the code for 10 methods. Even the class comment is a separate file. I don't even have the patience to do that. Make an organisation for people to join, those are made inside github we have one for the books we have none for the community , this way we can gain easier visibility of source code and it will also make easier for people to contribute to third party code. Move the meta repos of Pharo to Github and remove "meta" from the name. Instead name them Pharo Packages Catalog as we do inside the image. One repo for all versions of Pharo. Branches can be used to separate versions. Add to Playground the ability to paste code directly to Gist. This is a low priority one but its a nice touch. A biggy one is the pharo repo of the pharo image on github. Its a mess. https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commits/6.0 seriously, Github makes us visible , this does not look good at all. If you do all the above you will have reduced the pain of working with Git by 80%. On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:37 PM stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > Dimitris > > better reread what I wrote because you missed it. > > My point is let us minimize the mess and act in a concerted way. Do you > think that we would pay 9 months of dev + esteban that will started to > push there too > > and base all our dev on it if we would not believe that moving to git is > stupid! > > Can you read what I write? > > Stef > > > Le 6/11/16 Ã 13:05, stepharo a Ã©crit : > > Hi > > > > I would like that you think a bit about our community and that there > > is a value in using common tools > > > > to share and develop common libraries. Because to me it feels like we > > are getting balkanize. > > > > > > It may look super cool and be hyper trendy to use github (because like > > that you can say that you use latest hyper cool > > > > features), but I would like to ask especially people building > > libraries to pay attention that it is important > > > > that other people can contribute back easily and that there is an easy > > way to load/contribute. > > > > Today I experienced Bloc > > > > - I cannot load code and I cannot contribute. > > > > - I saw mdl with a mixture between smalltalkhub and github (sounds > > super hyper cool) and I saw paul not being able to contribute :( > > > > > > Yes you can say that monticello sucks yes it is terrible yes we all > > fell like Cobol programmers but at the end of the day. > > > > Yes the herb is always greener elsewhere. Yes yes yes. Let us take > > some facts. > > > > We managed pharo and moose with it over the last 8 years successfully > > and Pharo and moose are not 5 packages together from > > > > what I can see. So pay attention about the decision you take. > > > > Now we will provide git support (this is 8 months that nicolas is > > exclusively working/thinking/dreaming > > > > about that) and that we are doing experiments (Guille is managing the > > bootstrap in github). > > > > Now when everybody will have its own little project lost on github (I > > do not count the amount of time I do not find pillar on github because > > I forget > > > > that it is called pillar-markup), what will we do. > > > > So we need an infrastructure to handle this and christophe is working > > on this. > > > > I think that you should consider the accidental complexity as > > something that we can minimise by using patterns and common practices. > > > > Now you can think that I'm an idiot and that I have no vision (be my > > guest) but we should pay attention because we are a small community. > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] About balkanisation

by stepharo

Dimitris better reread what I wrote because you missed it. My point is let us minimize the mess and act in a concerted way. Do you think that we would pay 9 months of dev + esteban that will started to push there too and base all our dev on it if we would not believe that moving to git is stupid! Can you read what I write? Stef Le 6/11/16 Ã 13:05, stepharo a Ã©crit : > Hi > > I would like that you think a bit about our community and that there > is a value in using common tools > > to share and develop common libraries. Because to me it feels like we > are getting balkanize. > > > It may look super cool and be hyper trendy to use github (because like > that you can say that you use latest hyper cool > > features), but I would like to ask especially people building > libraries to pay attention that it is important > > that other people can contribute back easily and that there is an easy > way to load/contribute. > > Today I experienced Bloc > > - I cannot load code and I cannot contribute. > > - I saw mdl with a mixture between smalltalkhub and github (sounds > super hyper cool) and I saw paul not being able to contribute :( > > > Yes you can say that monticello sucks yes it is terrible yes we all > fell like Cobol programmers but at the end of the day. > > Yes the herb is always greener elsewhere. Yes yes yes. Let us take > some facts. > > We managed pharo and moose with it over the last 8 years successfully > and Pharo and moose are not 5 packages together from > > what I can see. So pay attention about the decision you take. > > Now we will provide git support (this is 8 months that nicolas is > exclusively working/thinking/dreaming > > about that) and that we are doing experiments (Guille is managing the > bootstrap in github). > > Now when everybody will have its own little project lost on github (I > do not count the amount of time I do not find pillar on github because > I forget > > that it is called pillar-markup), what will we do. > > So we need an infrastructure to handle this and christophe is working > on this. > > I think that you should consider the accidental complexity as > something that we can minimise by using patterns and common practices. > > Now you can think that I'm an idiot and that I have no vision (be my > guest) but we should pay attention because we are a small community. > > Stef > > > > >

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] About balkanisation

by Dimitris Chloupis

> It may look super cool and be hyper trendy to use github (because like > that you can say that you use latest hyper cool > > features), but I would like to ask especially people building libraries > to pay attention that it is important > > that other people can contribute back easily and that there is an easy > way to load/contribute. > > > Indeed Git and Github are hypercool and trendy but the important question here is why. Why C++ is so popular, why Java is so popular, why Javascript is so popular, Why python is so popular. When you ask why you understand that being hyper cool, its not a thing, its not something you can glance over its a practical need we needed a language that is super fast with ability to handle complex code, C++ we needed a language that is focused on enterprise development , Java we needed a language to make web developent, Javascript we needed a language to simplify C/C++/Java and C# without losing libraries, Python we needed a superfast decentralized versions control systems for both code and other assets , Git we needed a place to host online open source projects with git , Github we needed the perfect language , the perfect libraries a tool to end all tools , Nothing each one of those hypercools excel in what you are doing, in many cases they are more than one, not because they are easy but because they are powerful. To go back to old alternatives would be like going back to caves because you have hard time opening the front door of your house. You may choose to go back to the cave but do not expect people to follow you. You preach people not to leave the comforts of the nest because its safe and it easy, but in the end I find that as wasted potential. The question I am asking myself everyday how far can Pharo go with taking advantage of modern technology, how far Pharo can go if it gains access to the same exact resources as all other programming languages ? What would it mean for the average Pharo developer to be able to use not just web dev libraries but any library, any tool , any programming language , any time ? If you can answer these questions then you know why embracing git and github is the right choice even if it pains you, even if makes you lose sleep sometimes or even if you find it hard. Just because Smalltalk is an island, Pharo does not need to be one. Afterall .... Pharo is not Smalltalk, or so we claim Its time to put our money where our mouths are.

Nov. 6, 2016

About balkanisation

by stepharo

Hi I would like that you think a bit about our community and that there is a value in using common tools to share and develop common libraries. Because to me it feels like we are getting balkanize. It may look super cool and be hyper trendy to use github (because like that you can say that you use latest hyper cool features), but I would like to ask especially people building libraries to pay attention that it is important that other people can contribute back easily and that there is an easy way to load/contribute. Today I experienced Bloc - I cannot load code and I cannot contribute. - I saw mdl with a mixture between smalltalkhub and github (sounds super hyper cool) and I saw paul not being able to contribute :( Yes you can say that monticello sucks yes it is terrible yes we all fell like Cobol programmers but at the end of the day. Yes the herb is always greener elsewhere. Yes yes yes. Let us take some facts. We managed pharo and moose with it over the last 8 years successfully and Pharo and moose are not 5 packages together from what I can see. So pay attention about the decision you take. Now we will provide git support (this is 8 months that nicolas is exclusively working/thinking/dreaming about that) and that we are doing experiments (Guille is managing the bootstrap in github). Now when everybody will have its own little project lost on github (I do not count the amount of time I do not find pillar on github because I forget that it is called pillar-markup), what will we do. So we need an infrastructure to handle this and christophe is working on this. I think that you should consider the accidental complexity as something that we can minimise by using patterns and common practices. Now you can think that I'm an idiot and that I have no vision (be my guest) but we should pay attention because we are a small community. Stef

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] May I please be added as a contributor to the KevinLanvin/MaterialDesignLite repo on Sthub?

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, > On 5 Nov 2016, at 22:28, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > I do not think that Kevin is following this list. I strongly suggest that the repo is moved to one that we can control and let people contribute. > AFAIK this is the case: https://github.com/DuneSt/MaterialDesignLite <https://github.com/DuneSt/MaterialDesignLite> is the one we use (at least, this is the one I forked to add stuffâ¦ which I will submit back as PR next week :P) Esteban

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Forgive me

by phil＠highoctane.be

As any person with an ounce of self awareness. Remember that you are one interesting way the universe is introspecting itself. Phil On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Thank you. It breaks my heart I'm who I am, so at odds with who I wish to > be. Cave shadowz and distorted viewpoints. > > > > On 11/6/2016 2:56 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > > You are forgiven. > > Now get back to delivering us awesome features. > > Namaste. > Phil > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com > > wrote: > >> Forgive me for being such a huge unbearable fucking asshole. >> >> >> >> > >

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Forgive me

by Robert Withers

Thank you. It breaks my heart I'm who I am, so at odds with who I wish to be. Cave shadowz and distorted viewpoints. On 11/6/2016 2:56 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > You are forgiven. > > Now get back to delivering us awesome features. > > Namaste. > Phil > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Robert Withers > <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com <mailto:robert.w.withers@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Forgive me for being such a huge unbearable fucking asshole. > > > >

Nov. 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Speed up JPG images loading

by Ben Coman

What does the Time Profiler show? Can you link to a sample picture? cheers -ben On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 11:11 PM, Matteo via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Matteo <matteob8(a)yahoo.it> > To: "Pharo is welcome (ML)" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Cc: > Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 16:10:45 +0100 > Subject: Speed up JPG images loading > Dears, > I'm loading a lot of pictures (70) through the method > "ImageReadWriter>>formFromFileNamed:". > The method is very slow, with images bigger than 5MB. > > Is there a way to improve the pictures speed loading? > > > Thanks > Matteo > >

Nov. 6, 2016