November 2016 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] About balkanisation

by Norbert Hartl

> Am 07.11.2016 um 10:40 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com>: > > > > On 11/7/16 2:59 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: >> Hi Dale, >> >> I think I missed your mails. I would be interested in hearing your opinion. Letâs aim for a chat sometime next week. Would this work for you? > You're not the only one :) Yes it would ... Monday is a travel day so Tuesday or beyond would work for me â¦ > Would it make sense to make that a group conversation? Norbert

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] about balkanisation

by Norbert Hartl

> Am 07.11.2016 um 10:28 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > > >> On 7 Nov 2016, at 10:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> >>> On 7 Nov 2016, at 10:13, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I've seen over the years many, many attempts at replacing the filetree format. I used to contest and debate, now I just let them go and die a few months later. Because none of the alternatives are clearly superior, and it is not worth the effort to reimplement. >>> >>> (I quite enjoy reading filetree-based code on github: it is layed out like my browser, neat and clean. Moreover, all my code involve multiple classes, which means switching between files anyway. Given that reading those !! was never a pleasure, even when I started using Smalltalk in 1991) >> >> Indeed. I agree 100%. > > I was even thinking on propose someone (a student project, maybe?) to do an embeddable browser people could put in their README.md, to browse sources âas in Pharoâ :) > a Seaside app to do that would not be hard, I thinkâ¦ and can be hosted on PharoCloud (or whatever you want). > I fully agree to your previous mail (the long one) but want to add that it is not only the number of things to maintain that plays an important role in taming complexity. You can count the complexity of each project into that calculation. And proposing something using seaside is not an approach according to this rule ;) Norbert

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] About balkanisation

by Dale Henrichs

On 11/7/16 2:59 AM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi Dale, > > I think I missed your mails. I would be interested in hearing your opinion. Letâs aim for a chat sometime next week. Would this work for you? You're not the only one :) Yes it would ... Monday is a travel day so Tuesday or beyond would work for me ... Dale

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] about balkanisation

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 7 Nov 2016, at 10:17, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > >> On 7 Nov 2016, at 10:13, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I've seen over the years many, many attempts at replacing the filetree format. I used to contest and debate, now I just let them go and die a few months later. Because none of the alternatives are clearly superior, and it is not worth the effort to reimplement. >> >> (I quite enjoy reading filetree-based code on github: it is layed out like my browser, neat and clean. Moreover, all my code involve multiple classes, which means switching between files anyway. Given that reading those !! was never a pleasure, even when I started using Smalltalk in 1991) > > Indeed. I agree 100%. I was even thinking on propose someone (a student project, maybe?) to do an embeddable browser people could put in their README.md, to browse sources âas in Pharoâ :) a Seaside app to do that would not be hard, I thinkâ¦ and can be hosted on PharoCloud (or whatever you want). Esteban

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] [ALERT] Pharo by Example version 5 is about to be released

by Nicolai Hess

2016-11-07 10:10 GMT+01:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > I did not advertise Nireas because I wanted free advertisement , if that > was the case I would be advertising Ephestos which has been a far more > important project for me and a project I invested far more effort. > > The idea with Nireas is a theme that allows easy customisation to any kind > of theme the user wants. I completely disagree that themes are not one of > the most basic tools of an IDE. How my environment looks like is extremely > important to me and how easy it is to read code. Dark theme has been > probably the biggest enhancement Pharo had since day one for me and has > helped boost my productivity a lot more than any other tool. I also > remember how happy the community has been to accept the dark theme in its > arms. So obviously themes matter a ton to the average Pharo user. > > I can imagine myself living without the blue theme, but I cannot imagine > myself coding in Pharo without the blue theme and the dark theme. > > Hmm thanks for mentioning not working, this is weird, it works fine in > Pharo 6 , it has a MNU in Pharo 5. I will fix it today. > > In any case I have no issue removing the mentioning of Nireas , go ahead > and do it. I never had a problem with people changing my content in PBE5. > But simply I cannot agree with your opinion . > I will remove it. My opinion is not that themes are not important, but that it looks out of context in this chapter. This chapter has an overview stating what we will describe in this chapter, then having this intermediate step about changing the theme, open CatalogBrowser, loading Nireas and talking about that it has a theme editor ..., which looks totally unrelated to the other content that is about the core tools (browser, debugger, finder ...) > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 10:54 AM Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> 2016-11-07 9:52 GMT+01:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com>: >> >> >> >> 2016-10-27 13:32 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >> >> In case someone missed it I will be doing a release for version 5 (pharo >> version = pbe version) this weekend , since we had Pharo 7 initiated few >> days ago. >> >> Essentially that means that the repo will be tagged for version 5, which >> means a git commit is associated as a last commit for that version and >> there will be a frozen release - download for Pharo by Example version 5. >> After that we move to Pharo By Example version 6 or PBE6 for short >> >> The repo wont change otherwise and the process of submitting commits, >> pull requests and issues remains the same. >> >> If you have found a flaw of any sort in the documentation , please open >> an issue in the github issue tracker that can be found here >> >> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample/issues >> >> I will try to fix any problem reported but if I cannot , the fix will >> have to move to version 6 >> >> As always thanks to all people contributing into the impossible .... >> making Pharo more amazing >> >> If you want to contribute feel free to do so with a pull request. >> >> Does not matter if you are beginner because even minor corrections like >> correcting mistakes in the grammar or content of the text, updated >> pictures, or just a few lines of extra info are more than enough and more >> than welcomed. Many Pharo beginners have already done so . >> >> -Salute to fellow Guardians of The Light >> >> >> >> Duh, please don't advertise your own theme and tools and not in this >> place. >> In the chapter about the key tools, there is an introducion, listing all >> tools (browser/finder/...) following by a description of this tools, >> AND in between(!) a paragraph about themes and loading Nireas and silly >> tool for editing this theme. >> >> >> *simple* tool (BTW it does not work) >> >> >> >> This is totally unrelated to the other content. >> And if at all, I would only mention the dark theme ( as it is somhow >> popular to have a dark theme), but not at this place, maybe >> at the introduction where we show a first screenshot of the enviroment. >> (But I don't use the dark theme, so I don't know if the Pharo 5 version >> is "production ready". >> >> >>

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] about balkanisation

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 7 Nov 2016, at 10:13, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I've seen over the years many, many attempts at replacing the filetree format. I used to contest and debate, now I just let them go and die a few months later. Because none of the alternatives are clearly superior, and it is not worth the effort to reimplement. > > (I quite enjoy reading filetree-based code on github: it is layed out like my browser, neat and clean. Moreover, all my code involve multiple classes, which means switching between files anyway. Given that reading those !! was never a pleasure, even when I started using Smalltalk in 1991) Indeed. I agree 100%.

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] about balkanisation

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Kilon, 2016-11-07 9:57 GMT+01:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > Git requirements is basically non existent, it mainly works with text > files and with less support for binary files. Pharo does not need anything > but text files to be ready for Git. We had text files since forever with > fileouts and became more convenient with filetree. > Agreed (of course!). > > You are also wrong about Seaside kind of projects. Its actually ironic to > talk about complex projects when Git itself was made by the creator of > Linux and the Linux kernel developers have been using it for the Linux > kernel for ages. Actually one of the reasons why Linux created Git was > because he was disappointed how slow and cumbersome SVN was with big and > complex projects and to this day Git's speed and ability to handle enormous > complexity with ease is what makes it first choice for many projects and > probably the most popular VCS. > > Aa such not only SmalltalkHub has been an extremely poor alternativre to > Github , its claims like yours that keep the Pharo community using tools > that extremely limited , buggy and close to nowhere as Smalltalky enough. I > am not talking about here just for Smalltalkhub but also Monticello. That > weird Gui thing , that is just weird and sometimes is also weird. > > If however here we talk personal taste, if people want to recreate tools > that exist outside the pharo image because they prefer to stay inside the > pharo image , I am not against that but then I never criticised personal > taste. Its a free world after all. Tools like Iceberg are more than > welcomed as long as I can easily remove them from my image. > > Personally the only toolset I will be implementing will be a tool to > completely bypass monticello and filetree and instead mark classes for > export and code will be exported most likely in a fileout format > automatically each time I hit accept in the browser. > > Aready done. Look for Jan Vrany tools or Cuis. IMHO, not convincing to me (Jan's format is even more conflict-oriented than Filetree metadata, but it is a design goal). Cuis git repository is a mess to me; very hard to build a coherent 'rebuild a new Cuis here' process on it like I routinely do on Pharo. I've seen over the years many, many attempts at replacing the filetree format. I used to contest and debate, now I just let them go and die a few months later. Because none of the alternatives are clearly superior, and it is not worth the effort to reimplement. (I quite enjoy reading filetree-based code on github: it is layed out like my browser, neat and clean. Moreover, all my code involve multiple classes, which means switching between files anyway. Given that reading those !! was never a pleasure, even when I started using Smalltalk in 1991) Regards, Thierry

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Image freezes on Linux if it was previously saved on Windows

by Nicolai Hess

2016-11-01 13:18 GMT+01:00 Sean Glazier <sglazier456(a)gmail.com>: > did you get a fix for this? I am seeing this in pharo 5 image and I have > not > seen a fix yet > > No :( But I think with this change by Pavel: 19308 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19308/WorkingSession-id-dependency-on-UUID> WorkingSession id dependency on UUID moving images from windows to linux will work again (only for Pharo 6 at the moment, maybe we can port that change back if it works). > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Image-fr > eezes-on-Linux-if-it-was-previously-saved-on-Windows-tp49032 > 58p4921007.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] [ALERT] Pharo by Example version 5 is about to be released

by Dimitris Chloupis

I did not advertise Nireas because I wanted free advertisement , if that was the case I would be advertising Ephestos which has been a far more important project for me and a project I invested far more effort. The idea with Nireas is a theme that allows easy customisation to any kind of theme the user wants. I completely disagree that themes are not one of the most basic tools of an IDE. How my environment looks like is extremely important to me and how easy it is to read code. Dark theme has been probably the biggest enhancement Pharo had since day one for me and has helped boost my productivity a lot more than any other tool. I also remember how happy the community has been to accept the dark theme in its arms. So obviously themes matter a ton to the average Pharo user. I can imagine myself living without the blue theme, but I cannot imagine myself coding in Pharo without the blue theme and the dark theme. Hmm thanks for mentioning not working, this is weird, it works fine in Pharo 6 , it has a MNU in Pharo 5. I will fix it today. In any case I have no issue removing the mentioning of Nireas , go ahead and do it. I never had a problem with people changing my content in PBE5. But simply I cannot agree with your opinion . On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 10:54 AM Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2016-11-07 9:52 GMT+01:00 Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com>: > > > > 2016-10-27 13:32 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > In case someone missed it I will be doing a release for version 5 (pharo > version = pbe version) this weekend , since we had Pharo 7 initiated few > days ago. > > Essentially that means that the repo will be tagged for version 5, which > means a git commit is associated as a last commit for that version and > there will be a frozen release - download for Pharo by Example version 5. > After that we move to Pharo By Example version 6 or PBE6 for short > > The repo wont change otherwise and the process of submitting commits, pull > requests and issues remains the same. > > If you have found a flaw of any sort in the documentation , please open an > issue in the github issue tracker that can be found here > > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample/issues > > I will try to fix any problem reported but if I cannot , the fix will have > to move to version 6 > > As always thanks to all people contributing into the impossible .... > making Pharo more amazing > > If you want to contribute feel free to do so with a pull request. > > Does not matter if you are beginner because even minor corrections like > correcting mistakes in the grammar or content of the text, updated > pictures, or just a few lines of extra info are more than enough and more > than welcomed. Many Pharo beginners have already done so . > > -Salute to fellow Guardians of The Light > > > > Duh, please don't advertise your own theme and tools and not in this > place. > In the chapter about the key tools, there is an introducion, listing all > tools (browser/finder/...) following by a description of this tools, > AND in between(!) a paragraph about themes and loading Nireas and silly > tool for editing this theme. > > > *simple* tool (BTW it does not work) > > > > This is totally unrelated to the other content. > And if at all, I would only mention the dark theme ( as it is somhow > popular to have a dark theme), but not at this place, maybe > at the introduction where we show a first screenshot of the enviroment. > (But I don't use the dark theme, so I don't know if the Pharo 5 version > is "production ready". > > >

Nov. 7, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] about balkanisation

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Esteban, I cut out the rest, because I agree with all your points, except for... 2016-11-07 9:55 GMT+01:00 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>: > [ ... ] > > Replacing Monticello with git goes in this direction: > > [ ... ] > And this one I don't understand. A smooth, git / iceberg oriented transition over Monticello/Metacello is perfectly doable... As Dale explained. A nice Iceberg gui reworking / making git usable is perfect. But why make the transition so hard? You get Stef angry on a Sunday morning because he can't find things anymore... even if he is a strong proponent of the strategy he complains about ;) Thierry

Nov. 7, 2016