October 2016 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Dimitris Chloupis

"I'm probably not contributing anything of value to this conversation... :-) IMHO, most people who settle on Smalltalk aren't "not experienced with other language". Pierce" No idea where you have drawn that conclusion maybe it was true in the past or outside Pharo but Pharo is mostly used for web apps and that means you have to know both HTML5/CSS and Javascript and SQL for databases. Sticking to a single language is rarely a good idea mainly because even though languages are meant to be used for everything they have to a degree specific areas that they excel which makes them ideal choices for those situations. "As Guile explained it, it is a matter of responsibility to include a package in the Pharo image. The more packages in the base Pharo image the more complicated is the release process for the Pharo team, and more stress, etc." I think that's an overgeneralisation and a really lousy excuses. If conflicts occur between versions then its not the library that needs to be blamed but Pharo itself. Backward compatibility is a necessary evil in the end. When Pharo started indeed it went through a period of flux with many deep redesigns etc of course those things are a headache for those that maintain packages inside or outside the Pharo official distribution. Those braking enhancements were necessary to establish a healthy and stable code base and very much welcomed. However the honeymoon period has ended and Pharo cannot afford to brake compatibility anymore since more and more people are using it and none of us will be happy if we have to rewrite our software from scratch to accommodate new redesigns of Pharo code base in each version. An example is Python, Python 3 did brake backward compatibility with Python 2, because its creator Guido felt it was time for a deep redesign and most people agreed with him. But even though users approved the new improvements the cost for Python was massive . Python 3 was released in 2008 , 8 years later and still Python 2 is by far the most popular choice for python coders. It even been a reason not to use Python at all because of the brake between version 2 and 3. https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/pythonengineering/2016/03/08/python-3-is-w… So after 8 years , at last , Python 3 has catch up with Python 2 , mainly because all new projects chose python 3 and all old ones stick with Python 2. 8 years is how many years Pharo has been around. This has led the creator of Python to even claim that he regrets making Python 3 non backward compatible with Python and please note Python 3 comes with a special tool that can convert Python 2 code to Python 3 automagically. Still because the tool was far from perfect people chose to stick with Python 2. So for a stable environment that retains backward compatibility the cost of maintenance of individual packages should be zero to close to zero. Saying that my experience with my own code base shown me that in real life scenarios the maintenance is very little since after version 4 , Pharo has not done any radical change. In any case if Pharo is a pain to maintain , even only under the condition that a ton of packages added to it, we must wonder as a community whether this is the direction we want to go. Pharo will inevitably grow in popularity which will make its usage in big software more likely if maintenance cost is high it defeats the purpose of using Smalltalk in the first place.

Oct. 29, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Cover for PBE5

by Ben Coman

Nice, but I guess this was originally for something else since its not in the book form factor which will change your composition. It would be good to see a sample in book form factor. Also Pharo has its brand with the lighthouse in the big-O that I guess it would be good to follow like the other books... http://files.pharo.org/books/ How would it look to extrude logo.svg from here...? https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-flyers/tree/master/figures cheers -ben On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > So Stef reminded me that we are going to need a cover for PBE5 , so I > decided to revive my now 2 year old pharo logo render and enhance it. I > decided also to release all assets under MIT license as a present to the > community. The repo can be found here > > https://gitlab.com/Kilon/pbe5-cover/tree/master > > latest render can be found here > > https://gitlab.com/Kilon/pbe5-cover/raw/master/Pharo%20demo/renders/render-… > > this is not final render I have a few thing to improve but it is 90% there. > > Hope you like, I leave the final decision on Stef.

Oct. 29, 2016

Cover for PBE5

by Dimitris Chloupis

So Stef reminded me that we are going to need a cover for PBE5 , so I decided to revive my now 2 year old pharo logo render and enhance it. I decided also to release all assets under MIT license as a present to the community. The repo can be found here https://gitlab.com/Kilon/pbe5-cover/tree/master latest render can be found here https://gitlab.com/Kilon/pbe5-cover/raw/master/Pharo%20demo/renders/render-… this is not final render I have a few thing to improve but it is 90% there. Hope you like, I leave the final decision on Stef.

Oct. 29, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Pierce Ng

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 01:25:25PM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > For those not experienced with other language I'm probably not contributing anything of value to this conversation... :-) IMHO, most people who settle on Smalltalk aren't "not experienced with other language". Pierce

Oct. 29, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Hilaire

>From my perspective it depends on your previous programming experiences. After programming C++ for a few years, I immediately saw the huge potential of Smalltalk (Squeak at this time) with image, live programming, etc even if at that same time I did not understand at all any details. Free software mates not dedicated to programming but to mere scripting did not see that benefit, but more a nuisance in this image based system. But then after you have the main stream people prefer to follow. Hilaire Le 29/10/2016 Ã 08:43, phil(a)highoctane.be a Ã©crit : > This 5 years time span looks like accurate in what it takes to become > somewhat proficient with Pharo. > > I am curious to know how long one required to grok it. Because there is > a world between the "syntax on a postcard" narrative and the "dig in the > bowels of the beast" narrative. > > Anyone? -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Oct. 29, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Hilaire

Dimitris, As Guile explained it, it is a matter of responsibility to include a package in the Pharo image. The more packages in the base Pharo image the more complicated is the release process for the Pharo team, and more stress, etc. Nevertheless, a complement Pharo release with additional packages is possible and can be automated with Jenkins. But another team need to take this specific responsibility. The Smalltalk community has been discussing this matter for decades. Hope it clarify Hilaire Le 28/10/2016 Ã 15:05, Guille Polito a Ã©crit : > What I mean, adding a package inside the image can bring also a lot of > problems to package maintainers, so doing it just because "others do it" > is not a good argument. -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Oct. 29, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Dimitris Chloupis

Depends how many hours per week you spend and how deep you want to go in it. I spent around 3 hours per week , thats 150 hours per year , 750 in 5 years. For someone working 40 hours a week on pharo it would have taken him only 5 months to reach my level. Also in my case there were not that many libraries to help me out for the things I like to do , 3d graphics, custom GUIs and sound music. It was basically Morphic, Athens and Pharo Sound. Hence why I need to rely on external libraries. Web developing on the other hand would have required to learn Seaside and many other libraries that would have risen the learning curve quite substantially. On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 9:44 AM phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > This 5 years time span looks like accurate in what it takes to become > somewhat proficient with Pharo. > > I am curious to know how long one required to grok it. Because there is a > world between the "syntax on a postcard" narrative and the "dig in the > bowels of the beast" narrative. > > Anyone? > > Phil > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > > wrote: > > If you talking about me, no it does not work like that. > > Complaining is easy indeed but what is easier for me is just using Python > libraries from Pharo , this way I don't wait for you to implements features > I need and you don't have to endure my complaining. Win - win situation. > > Soon I will also be able to use C++ libraries from Pharo and I will be > virtually unstoppable. From Pharo I will be able to use any programming > language , any library and any application. > > So no, I have no need to argue, I prefer implementing my own solutions. > > The days of being an inexperienced Pharo developer are long gone, sure I > am still no Pharo expert but I can easily overcome Pharo limitations. Took > me 5 years but better late than never . > > >

Oct. 29, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by phil＠highoctane.be

This 5 years time span looks like accurate in what it takes to become somewhat proficient with Pharo. I am curious to know how long one required to grok it. Because there is a world between the "syntax on a postcard" narrative and the "dig in the bowels of the beast" narrative. Anyone? Phil On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > If you talking about me, no it does not work like that. > > Complaining is easy indeed but what is easier for me is just using Python > libraries from Pharo , this way I don't wait for you to implements features > I need and you don't have to endure my complaining. Win - win situation. > > Soon I will also be able to use C++ libraries from Pharo and I will be > virtually unstoppable. From Pharo I will be able to use any programming > language , any library and any application. > > So no, I have no need to argue, I prefer implementing my own solutions. > > The days of being an inexperienced Pharo developer are long gone, sure I > am still no Pharo expert but I can easily overcome Pharo limitations. Took > me 5 years but better late than never . >

Oct. 29, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Damien Pollet

On 28 October 2016 at 14:12, Guille Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > What is wrong in executing a simple Metacello command to load it? What's wrong is, it's not convenient / easy / publicized enough. There isn't a nice user story about dependency management and package loading, even though technically everything is (nearly) there. That's why the bootstrap, cargo, etc are important.

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Dimitris Chloupis

If you talking about me, no it does not work like that. Complaining is easy indeed but what is easier for me is just using Python libraries from Pharo , this way I don't wait for you to implements features I need and you don't have to endure my complaining. Win - win situation. Soon I will also be able to use C++ libraries from Pharo and I will be virtually unstoppable. From Pharo I will be able to use any programming language , any library and any application. So no, I have no need to argue, I prefer implementing my own solutions. The days of being an inexperienced Pharo developer are long gone, sure I am still no Pharo expert but I can easily overcome Pharo limitations. Took me 5 years but better late than never .

Oct. 28, 2016