October 2016 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by phil＠highoctane.be

I would for sure second that. I am using COM for dealing with this thing: http://www.sparxsystems.com/ about all day long a couple days a week. Bridging this with Roassal/Moose for additional visualisations would be super (I am going to look at that one in the coming weeks to help with the overall quality assessment of a quite large model). Phil On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2016-10-02 10:57 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > By the way I am all for COM for Pharo, the issue is that 2/3 of our > > community are MacOS and Linux users , I dont even remember the last time > we > > had a Windows only topic in the mailing list. Modern languages generally > > avoid using OS specific libraries, the last exceptions be C# and Swift > and > > C# definetly looks like it will be fully cross platform soon enough (it > > already is because of Mono). > > I wouldn't state such affirmations without a proper surveying. > > My latest survey related with RDBMS support [1] showed that the users > of Windows are on par with the users of MacOS. > > I am a Windows user, who runs most of the Pharo images inside Linux > VMs not because I don't want to run them in Windows, but because the > current support of Windows is somewhat limited. > > Having COM support for Pharo in a Windows environment would be a big > enabler to a lot of current users of Smalltalk that don't use Pharo. > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > [1] https://medium.com/@emaringolo/pharo-rdbms-support-survey-results- > 9c8f640878db#.ym049enul > > >

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well first of all what you linked supports my claim that 2/3 of Pharo users are MacOS and Linux users which I based on another survey which pretty much verifies what you linked. Second the vast majorities of libraries out other for any programming language are cross platform so I am willing to bet that we will attract even more users if we emphasize cross platform support instead of libraries that OS exclusive. Of course that implies good support for Windows too. It will be kinda ironic Microsoft to beats us in the ability to be cross platform. Third I already said I fully support the effort to bring COM features to Pharo, the exact wording "By the way I am all for COM for Pharo" leave little to doubt if nothing at all. I would not use nor I would recommend using a OS specific library but there are definitely scenarios where it makes sense to use one and having it around is much better than not having it around. On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 6:46 PM Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2016-10-02 10:57 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > By the way I am all for COM for Pharo, the issue is that 2/3 of our > > community are MacOS and Linux users , I dont even remember the last time > we > > had a Windows only topic in the mailing list. Modern languages generally > > avoid using OS specific libraries, the last exceptions be C# and Swift > and > > C# definetly looks like it will be fully cross platform soon enough (it > > already is because of Mono). > > I wouldn't state such affirmations without a proper surveying. > > My latest survey related with RDBMS support [1] showed that the users > of Windows are on par with the users of MacOS. > > I am a Windows user, who runs most of the Pharo images inside Linux > VMs not because I don't want to run them in Windows, but because the > current support of Windows is somewhat limited. > > Having COM support for Pharo in a Windows environment would be a big > enabler to a lot of current users of Smalltalk that don't use Pharo. > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > [1] > https://medium.com/@emaringolo/pharo-rdbms-support-survey-results-9c8f64087… > >

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Glorp

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2016-10-02 2:37 GMT-03:00 stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr>: > should not we removed DBXGlorp if it is not up to date? > > Is BDXGlorp based on latest Glorp port? GlorpDBX is nothing but a name to a Metacello config that used to load both Glorp and the OpenDBX (now garageDB) drivers. Esteban A. Maringolo

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2016-10-02 10:57 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > By the way I am all for COM for Pharo, the issue is that 2/3 of our > community are MacOS and Linux users , I dont even remember the last time we > had a Windows only topic in the mailing list. Modern languages generally > avoid using OS specific libraries, the last exceptions be C# and Swift and > C# definetly looks like it will be fully cross platform soon enough (it > already is because of Mono). I wouldn't state such affirmations without a proper surveying. My latest survey related with RDBMS support [1] showed that the users of Windows are on par with the users of MacOS. I am a Windows user, who runs most of the Pharo images inside Linux VMs not because I don't want to run them in Windows, but because the current support of Windows is somewhat limited. Having COM support for Pharo in a Windows environment would be a big enabler to a lot of current users of Smalltalk that don't use Pharo. Esteban A. Maringolo [1] https://medium.com/@emaringolo/pharo-rdbms-support-survey-results-9c8f64087…

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by Dimitris Chloupis

By the way I am all for COM for Pharo, the issue is that 2/3 of our community are MacOS and Linux users , I dont even remember the last time we had a Windows only topic in the mailing list. Modern languages generally avoid using OS specific libraries, the last exceptions be C# and Swift and C# definetly looks like it will be fully cross platform soon enough (it already is because of Mono). On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 4:49 PM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Well that is not fair because C++ CLI is basically C++ .NET which is > another language altogether baring some resemblance to C++. > > And you dont need C++ CLI to sit on barrier of runtime and compile , C++ > can do this just fine. > > I found this recently trying to experiment at whether its possible to do > live coding with C++. I found it after following tutorials that is very > possible doing that isfyou put only a super minimal code loop in the > executable that loads DLLs and divert all other code to DLLs. This gives > you ability to have instant compilation and change code while it is > executed. For live data you can put all data to a place in memory and then > pass the memory as pointer to the DLLs. This give you live inspection of > data and live change of data. You can even protect yourself from crashes , > something that Pharo cannot currently do, by wrapping the loading of the > DLLs to an OS exception, the executable will never crash but it will show > the crash errors. Of course you can hook the debugger for live debugging > etc. > > You can find my experiment here > https://github.com/kilon/LiveCPP > and find more info here > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMSBRk5WG58 > > My complains however is over the design of WIndows APIs for C++ , they are > beyond ugly, the naming convention alone has a notoriously bad reputation. > > .NET is another thing altogether, its a beauty. Its actually an insult to > put C# and Java on the same sentence, many coders think that C# is a rip > off of Java but nothing could be further from the truth. The creator of > .NET is not Microsoft , Microsoft has no clue what good design is, its a > coder they hired that worked previously with Borland and created the > gorgeous Delphi. Delphi is the only true pro quality Smalltalk out there, > without being a Smalltalk. That may sound as a contradiction and it is. > Delphi does not use the Smalltalk language , instead uses Object Pascal but > pretty much else is a recipe take from the Smalltalk book, notable the API > which Delphi calls VCL and the IDE. The API is of special interest here > because it has been the first pro quality api to utilize full OO the proper > way , with well designed objects and carefully mapped class inheritance. > Java on the other hand like windows C++ APIs is a huge pile of mess. The > same coder designed C# and .NET and used all the ideas he used with Delphi > , winforms alone is a large rip off of Delphi's GUI api. > > But even with this beauty Microsoft could help itself dropping the ball, > so what it did was to completely ignore the cross platform ability of .NET > , hence why Java kept the lead. The excuse was mainly the Windows Mobile > that Microsoft dreamed of competing with iOS and Android but that dream > eventually failed with the spectacular commercial failure of Microsoft > smartphones. So Microsoft did the expected thing, accepted defeat and > bought the company that already ported .NET to iOS and Android and > countless other platforms and named it Mono. The company is called Xamarin. > > Fortunately Microsoft seems to learn from its past mistakes and has > recently redesigned .NET to better support cross platform and even open > sourced it. > > Personally I love .NET and I would not mind at all coding on C# and > ironpython (.NET variant of python). Mircrosoft definetly has lost > interest in C++ anyway , it has seen the rapidly decline of the language of > the language and the mass migration to Java. Java may be ugly but it cured > of the pain of manual memory management and offered the first pure business > orientated API with the best cross platform support. Java also destroyed > the myth that a Garbage Collector cannot reach top performance and compete > with C++ code. In sort Java is not as popular because of the design of its > libraries but is certainly extremely popular for a lot other reasons. > > The question is why you even bother with C++ CLI , C++ CLI was created > mainly to bridge C++ with C# / .NET languages, is there a reason you prefer > it over C# ? > > On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 2:01 PM CodeDmitry <dimamakhnin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > To be fair, C++CLI is quite a pleasure to code, it's a very refreshing > technology that sits nicely on the barrier of runtime and compiletime, > similar to Objective C; eg still has access to unmanaged resources, while > still having managed resources in contrast to Java/C# which kinda go one > step towards runtime, and ISO C++ which tries to stay within compile time. > > Windows Programming isn't quite that bad now with C++CLI, my image is > contrived to demonstrate one of my first successful attempts at getting COM > to actually do something other than give me compilation errors. > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Intro-to-Microsoft-COM-for-Smalltalkers-tp4917738p491… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well that is not fair because C++ CLI is basically C++ .NET which is another language altogether baring some resemblance to C++. And you dont need C++ CLI to sit on barrier of runtime and compile , C++ can do this just fine. I found this recently trying to experiment at whether its possible to do live coding with C++. I found it after following tutorials that is very possible doing that isfyou put only a super minimal code loop in the executable that loads DLLs and divert all other code to DLLs. This gives you ability to have instant compilation and change code while it is executed. For live data you can put all data to a place in memory and then pass the memory as pointer to the DLLs. This give you live inspection of data and live change of data. You can even protect yourself from crashes , something that Pharo cannot currently do, by wrapping the loading of the DLLs to an OS exception, the executable will never crash but it will show the crash errors. Of course you can hook the debugger for live debugging etc. You can find my experiment here https://github.com/kilon/LiveCPP and find more info here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMSBRk5WG58 My complains however is over the design of WIndows APIs for C++ , they are beyond ugly, the naming convention alone has a notoriously bad reputation. .NET is another thing altogether, its a beauty. Its actually an insult to put C# and Java on the same sentence, many coders think that C# is a rip off of Java but nothing could be further from the truth. The creator of .NET is not Microsoft , Microsoft has no clue what good design is, its a coder they hired that worked previously with Borland and created the gorgeous Delphi. Delphi is the only true pro quality Smalltalk out there, without being a Smalltalk. That may sound as a contradiction and it is. Delphi does not use the Smalltalk language , instead uses Object Pascal but pretty much else is a recipe take from the Smalltalk book, notable the API which Delphi calls VCL and the IDE. The API is of special interest here because it has been the first pro quality api to utilize full OO the proper way , with well designed objects and carefully mapped class inheritance. Java on the other hand like windows C++ APIs is a huge pile of mess. The same coder designed C# and .NET and used all the ideas he used with Delphi , winforms alone is a large rip off of Delphi's GUI api. But even with this beauty Microsoft could help itself dropping the ball, so what it did was to completely ignore the cross platform ability of .NET , hence why Java kept the lead. The excuse was mainly the Windows Mobile that Microsoft dreamed of competing with iOS and Android but that dream eventually failed with the spectacular commercial failure of Microsoft smartphones. So Microsoft did the expected thing, accepted defeat and bought the company that already ported .NET to iOS and Android and countless other platforms and named it Mono. The company is called Xamarin. Fortunately Microsoft seems to learn from its past mistakes and has recently redesigned .NET to better support cross platform and even open sourced it. Personally I love .NET and I would not mind at all coding on C# and ironpython (.NET variant of python). Mircrosoft definetly has lost interest in C++ anyway , it has seen the rapidly decline of the language of the language and the mass migration to Java. Java may be ugly but it cured of the pain of manual memory management and offered the first pure business orientated API with the best cross platform support. Java also destroyed the myth that a Garbage Collector cannot reach top performance and compete with C++ code. In sort Java is not as popular because of the design of its libraries but is certainly extremely popular for a lot other reasons. The question is why you even bother with C++ CLI , C++ CLI was created mainly to bridge C++ with C# / .NET languages, is there a reason you prefer it over C# ? On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 2:01 PM CodeDmitry <dimamakhnin(a)gmail.com> wrote: > To be fair, C++CLI is quite a pleasure to code, it's a very refreshing > technology that sits nicely on the barrier of runtime and compiletime, > similar to Objective C; eg still has access to unmanaged resources, while > still having managed resources in contrast to Java/C# which kinda go one > step towards runtime, and ISO C++ which tries to stay within compile time. > > Windows Programming isn't quite that bad now with C++CLI, my image is > contrived to demonstrate one of my first successful attempts at getting COM > to actually do something other than give me compilation errors. > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Intro-to-Microsoft-COM-for-Smalltalkers-tp4917738p491… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by CodeDmitry

To be fair, C++CLI is quite a pleasure to code, it's a very refreshing technology that sits nicely on the barrier of runtime and compiletime, similar to Objective C; eg still has access to unmanaged resources, while still having managed resources in contrast to Java/C# which kinda go one step towards runtime, and ISO C++ which tries to stay within compile time. Windows Programming isn't quite that bad now with C++CLI, my image is contrived to demonstrate one of my first successful attempts at getting COM to actually do something other than give me compilation errors. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Intro-to-Microsoft-COM-for-Smalltalkers-tp4917738p491… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] About Seaside3.2

by stepharo

Hi denis I took again the latest 50 seaside32 and there is ZnZincServerAdaptor loaded. server := ZnZincServerAdaptor startOn: 8080 > server := ZnZincServerAdaptor startOn: 8080

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 2 Oct 2016, at 07:09, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > ;) > > > btw are working on a com lib for pharo because we were discussing it with esteban yes, Pablo already has a prototype working :) Esteban > > > > Le 2/10/16 Ã 04:09, CodeDmitry a Ã©crit : >> Just made this image, I thought it would be fun to share :3 (Yes there are a >> few memory leaks there due to no SysFreeString to match SysAllocString, but >> regardless... >> >> http://i.imgur.com/Fz36SHU.png >> >> COM to Microsoft Windows seems to be like Smalltalk to Smalltalk Runtime, >> with Object Browser being the Windows Registry. >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Intro-to-Microsoft-COM-for-Smalltalkers-tp4917738.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > >

Oct. 2, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Intro to Microsoft COM for Smalltalkers

by John Pfersich

Hey, all you have to do is reboot your computer (often). Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 1, 2016, at 22:53, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Ah the ugliness of Windoom programming has not changed since the last time I tried to learn MFC 20 years ago.it melts my eyes. > > COM is an IPC tool, Windows registry is still a horrible idea. No connection with Smalltalk whatsoever . And of course we don't worry about memory leaks. > >> On Sun, 2 Oct 2016 at 04:15, CodeDmitry <dimamakhnin(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Just made this image, I thought it would be fun to share :3 (Yes there are a >> few memory leaks there due to no SysFreeString to match SysAllocString, but >> regardless... >> >> http://i.imgur.com/Fz36SHU.png >> >> COM to Microsoft Windows seems to be like Smalltalk to Smalltalk Runtime, >> with Object Browser being the Windows Registry. >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Intro-to-Microsoft-COM-for-Smalltalkers-tp4917738.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>

Oct. 2, 2016