January 2016 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

PharoLauncher MUST BE the default download of Pharo

by Dimitris Chloupis

Talking about pharo being begineer friendly , PharoLauncher must be the default download for pharo. This is something that I have been promoting for past 2 year and Esteban informed he has been promoting this idea before me. So for those people that believe that pharo is begineer friendly.... prove it.

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

by Dimitris Chloupis

Done https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17371/No-direct-link-to-the-UPBE-pdf On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:45 AM Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > I think that UPBE is in definitely a better state than PBE. We should > switch the link. > > @Dimitris: Could you open an issue for this? > > Doru > > > > On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:37 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > wrote: > > > > > >> On 11 Jan 2016, at 10:24, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> I agree with you only 100% + 1. > >> > >> Also note that UPBE is not promoted even though its the most begineer > friendly documentation we have, instead you have to navigate through the > links to get there. > > > > There is books.pharo.org > > > > PBE is there, I thought UPBE was not yet ready, if it is, it should > **definitively** be promoted there and on pharo.org in general. > > > > Please push this, this is really important. > > > >> AFAIK the documentation page could use some love, promoting our main > Book, UPBE, Pharo for the Enterprise , Deep Into Pharo. Those 3 are > essential reading for anyone coming to pharo and they are in a pretty good > state , though WIP. > >> > >> I have to say that I never liked Pharo docs because it shows how few > classes contain comments and it definitely does not look good for someone > looking to enter pharo. > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:48 AM David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> > wrote: > >> I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part. > >> > >> But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large > letter on this page: http://pharo.org/documentation > >> > >> If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical > access to fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly > visible page. > >> > >> As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects > badly on the state of Pharo in general. > >> > >>> On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >>> > >>> Dear David, > >>> > >>> yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will > >>> never have a look to such a static documentation. > >>> You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside > >>> the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool. > >>> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> > wrote: > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are > rendered, > >>>> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their > docstrings. > >>>> That makes it quite unusable. > >>>> > >>>> > http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… > >>>> > >>>> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, > that's > >>>> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand > why that > >>>> was confusing... > >>>> > >>>> Who can fix that? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Serge Stinckwich > >>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > >>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > >>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "To utilize feedback, you first have to acquire it." > > >

Jan. 11, 2016

happy lessons from recent talks

by Tudor Girba

Hi, I just wanted to share with you a bit of a different perspective on what we do around here. Over the past half a year I gave several talks to some 1k technical people at industrial events like ArchConf, NDC Oslo and several others. The tour will continue this year at OOP, ArchConf and a couple of other places. These are places where people talk about mainstream techniques & technologies (like Java, JS, C#). For example, ArchConf is a premier software architecture conference in the US. During these sessions, people get to experience Moose and Pharo through live demos. I use these demos as examples of how humane assessment (building your own analysis tools) can boost engineering decisions making in practice. I consistently receive the feedback that the live programming possibilities from Pharo/Moose are impressive. But, more recently, there is something else worthy of being noted. If in previous years, nobody heard about what we do, this year I started to get consistently a couple of persons in the room that have heard something about Pharo/Moose before the presentation. This is huge. While a couple might not sound like much, you should remember that information (especially in this technical space) has the capability of spreading exponentially. What we have done over the past years starts to show results. We have to keep it up. Happy New Year! Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Problem solving should be focused on describing the problem in a way that makes the solution obvious."

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

by Tudor Girba

Thanks. Doru > On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I opened a fogbugz issue > 17348 remove pharo documentation link > > 2016-01-11 2:37 GMT+01:00 John Pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com>: > On my iPad the docs look like this: > > > > It's an unusable mess. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jan 10, 2016, at 15:47, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > > > > I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part. > > > > But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large letter on this page: http://pharo.org/documentation > > > > If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical access to fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly visible page. > > > > As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects badly on the state of Pharo in general. > > > >> On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Dear David, > >> > >> yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will > >> never have a look to such a static documentation. > >> You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside > >> the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are rendered, > >>> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their docstrings. > >>> That makes it quite unusable. > >>> > >>> http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… > >>> > >>> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's > >>> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why that > >>> was confusing... > >>> > >>> Who can fix that? > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Serge Stinckwich > >> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > >> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > > > > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Yesterday is a fact. Tomorrow is a possibility. Today is a challenge."

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

by Tudor Girba

I think that UPBE is in definitely a better state than PBE. We should switch the link. @Dimitris: Could you open an issue for this? Doru > On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:37 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > >> On 11 Jan 2016, at 10:24, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I agree with you only 100% + 1. >> >> Also note that UPBE is not promoted even though its the most begineer friendly documentation we have, instead you have to navigate through the links to get there. > > There is books.pharo.org > > PBE is there, I thought UPBE was not yet ready, if it is, it should **definitively** be promoted there and on pharo.org in general. > > Please push this, this is really important. > >> AFAIK the documentation page could use some love, promoting our main Book, UPBE, Pharo for the Enterprise , Deep Into Pharo. Those 3 are essential reading for anyone coming to pharo and they are in a pretty good state , though WIP. >> >> I have to say that I never liked Pharo docs because it shows how few classes contain comments and it definitely does not look good for someone looking to enter pharo. >> >> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:48 AM David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: >> I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part. >> >> But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large letter on this page: http://pharo.org/documentation >> >> If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical access to fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly visible page. >> >> As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects badly on the state of Pharo in general. >> >>> On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Dear David, >>> >>> yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will >>> never have a look to such a static documentation. >>> You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside >>> the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are rendered, >>>> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their docstrings. >>>> That makes it quite unusable. >>>> >>>> http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… >>>> >>>> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's >>>> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why that >>>> was confusing... >>>> >>>> Who can fix that? >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Serge Stinckwich >>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >>> >> >> > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "To utilize feedback, you first have to acquire it."

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

by Nicolai Hess

I opened a fogbugz issue 17348 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17348/Enhance-shortcut-learnability> remove pharo documentation link 2016-01-11 2:37 GMT+01:00 John Pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com>: > On my iPad the docs look like this: > > > > It's an unusable mess. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jan 10, 2016, at 15:47, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > > > > I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part. > > > > But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large > letter on this page: http://pharo.org/documentation > > > > If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical > access to fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly > visible page. > > > > As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects > badly on the state of Pharo in general. > > > >> On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> Dear David, > >> > >> yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will > >> never have a look to such a static documentation. > >> You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside > >> the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> > wrote: > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are > rendered, > >>> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their > docstrings. > >>> That makes it quite unusable. > >>> > >>> > http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… > >>> > >>> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's > >>> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why > that > >>> was confusing... > >>> > >>> Who can fix that? > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Serge Stinckwich > >> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > >> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > > > > >

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 11 Jan 2016, at 10:24, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree with you only 100% + 1. > > Also note that UPBE is not promoted even though its the most begineer friendly documentation we have, instead you have to navigate through the links to get there. There is books.pharo.org PBE is there, I thought UPBE was not yet ready, if it is, it should **definitively** be promoted there and on pharo.org in general. Please push this, this is really important. > AFAIK the documentation page could use some love, promoting our main Book, UPBE, Pharo for the Enterprise , Deep Into Pharo. Those 3 are essential reading for anyone coming to pharo and they are in a pretty good state , though WIP. > > I have to say that I never liked Pharo docs because it shows how few classes contain comments and it definitely does not look good for someone looking to enter pharo. > > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:48 AM David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part. > > But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large letter on this page: http://pharo.org/documentation > > If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical access to fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly visible page. > > As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects badly on the state of Pharo in general. > > > On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Dear David, > > > > yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will > > never have a look to such a static documentation. > > You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside > > the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool. > > > > Regards, > > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are rendered, > >> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their docstrings. > >> That makes it quite unusable. > >> > >> http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… > >> > >> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's > >> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why that > >> was confusing... > >> > >> Who can fix that? > > > > > > > > -- > > Serge Stinckwich > > UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > > >

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

by Dimitris Chloupis

I agree with you only 100% + 1. Also note that UPBE is not promoted even though its the most begineer friendly documentation we have, instead you have to navigate through the links to get there. AFAIK the documentation page could use some love, promoting our main Book, UPBE, Pharo for the Enterprise , Deep Into Pharo. Those 3 are essential reading for anyone coming to pharo and they are in a pretty good state , though WIP. I have to say that I never liked Pharo docs because it shows how few classes contain comments and it definitely does not look good for someone looking to enter pharo. On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:48 AM David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part. > > But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large > letter on this page: http://pharo.org/documentation > > If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical > access to fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly > visible page. > > As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects > badly on the state of Pharo in general. > > > On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Dear David, > > > > yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will > > never have a look to such a static documentation. > > You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside > > the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool. > > > > Regards, > > > > On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> > wrote: > >> Hello, > >> > >> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are > rendered, > >> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their > docstrings. > >> That makes it quite unusable. > >> > >> > http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… > >> > >> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's > >> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why > that > >> was confusing... > >> > >> Who can fix that? > > > > > > > > -- > > Serge Stinckwich > > UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > > > >

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Docs website broken

by John Pfersich

On my iPad the docs look like this: It's an unusable mess. Sent from my iPad > On Jan 10, 2016, at 15:47, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: > > I could argue about how I agree with you, but only in part. > > But the simple fact is this: the documentation is advertised in large letter on this page: http://pharo.org/documentation > > If it's broken, it should be fixed. If the people with the technical access to fix it do not care, it should be removed from such a highly visible page. > > As it is, it is confusing for new users, who need it most, and reflects badly on the state of Pharo in general. > >> On 10 Jan 2016, at 22:25, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Dear David, >> >> yes this maybe broken, but most of the time, a Pharo developer will >> never have a look to such a static documentation. >> You can browse the class and the related methods very easily inside >> the Pharo image, without relying on an external tool. >> >> Regards, >> >>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:08 PM, David Allouche <david(a)allouche.net> wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> It seems the pharodocs website is broken. Pages for classes are rendered, >>> but the documentation does not display the messages, only their docstrings. >>> That makes it quite unusable. >>> >>> http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… >>> >>> I remember I looked at it once when I started and thought "whee, that's >>> confusing, I'll play around and come back later". Now I understand why that >>> was confusing... >>> >>> Who can fix that? >> >> >> >> -- >> Serge Stinckwich >> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > >

Jan. 11, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] [ann] gtdebugger in pharo 5.0

by John Pfersich

Sent from my iPad > On Jan 10, 2016, at 06:08, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 6:24 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> We are about to integrate in Pharo a new member of the Glamorous Toolkit: the GTDebugger. As this is a significant change that might affect your workflow, here is some background information to help you deal with the change. >> >> First, you should know that the change is not irreversible and it is easily possible to disabled the new debugger through a setting. > > Can we do it the other way for Pharo 5 "Release"? Keeping the existing debugger as default and as desired people can enable GTDebugger. I know this limits exposure and slows uptake and feedback, but prior to this announcement there has been *zero* community discussion of making this the default. I can't find the Pharo 5 roadmap/plan, but I don't remember GTDebugger being mentioned at all. I worry how it looks to people considering Pharo for big changes like this to be dropped out of the sky without *public* forward *planning*. > > A big UI change like this should happen *early* in a release cycle - because then you have a *long* time for it to become stable for documentation. Even though Dimitris is keen, I can understand why its disheartening for Stef. I'd hope the way is to introduce such big changes is as a technology preview and have the *default* match the recently developed documentation. > > Note my problem is only with the default for the Pharo 5 "Release", so it could be default now to kick start its exposure and revert the default a few weeks before the Pharo 5 Release. And its not like you lose a whole year of feedback by not being default in Pharo 5 Release. The documentation using newcomers who are most likely to use Pharo 5 "Release" probably wouldn't have the confidence (or care) to provide the feedback you want anyway. Many of those in the community who would normally provide feedback will be follow Pharo 6 bleeding edge anyway, so they'll that won't be stuck with the old debugger. Making GTDebugger the default early in Pharo 6 should still get plenty of feedback from those that usually contribute. > > btw, I am looking forward to using it for myself. > > cheers -ben > +1 > >> However, please do take the time to provide us feedback if something does not work out for you. We want to know what can be improved and we try to react as fast as we can. >> >> A practical change comes from the fact that the variables are manipulated through a GTInspector, which makes it cheaper to maintain in the longer run. >> >> While the first thing that will capture the attention is the default generic interface, the real power comes from the moldable nature of the debugger. Like all other GT tools, GTDebugger is also moldable by design. This means that we can construct custom debuggers for specific libraries at small costs (often measured in a couple of hundred lines of code). >> >> >> >> Here is an introductory overview blog post that also includes some links for further reading: >> http://www.humane-assessment.com/blog/gtdebugger-in-pharo/ >> >> Please let us know what you think. >

Jan. 11, 2016