February 2015 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by phil＠highoctane.be

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 4:38 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > kilon.alios wrote > > I do agree, that nomads do not build cathedrals but there is the flip > side > > of the coin, why one would want to be a nomad and the great benefits > > coming > > with being a nomad > > > > Guido the creator of python explains it from the side of the Python > > Standard library but I think it applies fine for Pharo too > > Cathedral to me means architecture i.e. the application of forethought and > understanding to make the most beautiful, functional structure in the most > efficient way VS. nomads slapping together temporary mud huts that can be > abandoned and easily rebuilt elsewhere in better conditions. This is > orthogonal to the also-important issue that rigidity often accompanies a > large user-base. > > One could have a beautiful cathedral that is frequented only by the > faithful, and not turned into a tourist attraction like Notre Dame or Il > Duomo di Firenze. Steph often says that if we were looking to be famous, > we'd be programming in Ruby ;) Conversely, one could have a mud hut that > becomes a historic landmark or revered for it's earthly charm, and can > never > be improved. > > And as for popularity = rigidity, that's certainly true for languages taken > up by pop culture. That is because of one of Alan Kay's frequent > observations - that nearly everyone is driven by utility, with only a tiny > minority concerned inherently with ideas. Once people are programming a > language because that's the language "you're supposed to use" - like C++ or > Ruby - the utilitarianists flock in, and, because they are concerned only > with its usefulness, they will not tolerate much disturbance due to > "beauty", "design", or other intangibles. > > But, who says we have to go there? I for one am not interested in that > game. > One estimate says there are 18.5 million software developers in the world > [1]. I don't remember the exact percentage of inherent-idea people, but > let's be extremely conservative and say 5% (I think it was much higher). > That gives us 0.05 x 18.5M = 925,000 potential Pharo users that would revel > in the idea of an infinite game pursuing a beautiful, simple liberator of > human expression; and therefore willing to tolerate and adapt themselves to > the inevitable change, just like we all do now. > > Now, here's the important thing to remember... As we get more popular, the > above plan will leave over 17,500,000 potential complainers to potentially > distract and discourage us! > > These are the challenges of those who dare to venture into the Blue Plane, > but isn't it a beautiful game?! > Care to make that into an article for the world to see? It is worth every word. It actually fits with this pretty nicely: http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2015/02/the-ultimate-guide-to-making-a-persona… Not that we need a manifesto... Do we? /Phil, happy to be in the 5% > > [1] > > http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/european-technology/there-are-185-million-… > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Slides-from-the-Pharo-Status-talk-at-FOSDEM-2015-tp48… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by Sean P. DeNigris

kilon.alios wrote > I do agree, that nomads do not build cathedrals but there is the flip side > of the coin, why one would want to be a nomad and the great benefits > coming > with being a nomad > > Guido the creator of python explains it from the side of the Python > Standard library but I think it applies fine for Pharo too Cathedral to me means architecture i.e. the application of forethought and understanding to make the most beautiful, functional structure in the most efficient way VS. nomads slapping together temporary mud huts that can be abandoned and easily rebuilt elsewhere in better conditions. This is orthogonal to the also-important issue that rigidity often accompanies a large user-base. One could have a beautiful cathedral that is frequented only by the faithful, and not turned into a tourist attraction like Notre Dame or Il Duomo di Firenze. Steph often says that if we were looking to be famous, we'd be programming in Ruby ;) Conversely, one could have a mud hut that becomes a historic landmark or revered for it's earthly charm, and can never be improved. And as for popularity = rigidity, that's certainly true for languages taken up by pop culture. That is because of one of Alan Kay's frequent observations - that nearly everyone is driven by utility, with only a tiny minority concerned inherently with ideas. Once people are programming a language because that's the language "you're supposed to use" - like C++ or Ruby - the utilitarianists flock in, and, because they are concerned only with its usefulness, they will not tolerate much disturbance due to "beauty", "design", or other intangibles. But, who says we have to go there? I for one am not interested in that game. One estimate says there are 18.5 million software developers in the world [1]. I don't remember the exact percentage of inherent-idea people, but let's be extremely conservative and say 5% (I think it was much higher). That gives us 0.05 x 18.5M = 925,000 potential Pharo users that would revel in the idea of an infinite game pursuing a beautiful, simple liberator of human expression; and therefore willing to tolerate and adapt themselves to the inevitable change, just like we all do now. Now, here's the important thing to remember... As we get more popular, the above plan will leave over 17,500,000 potential complainers to potentially distract and discourage us! These are the challenges of those who dare to venture into the Blue Plane, but isn't it a beautiful game?! [1] http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/european-technology/there-are-185-million-… ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Slides-from-the-Pharo-Status-talk-at-FOSDEM-2015-tp48… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] spotter preview

by Sean P. DeNigris

nacho wrote > Really cool. Yes, awesome!! Why not preview by default (like Mac's Spotlight)? At Smalltalk's high-granularity, I would guess there's not much of a lag, no? ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/spotter-preview-tp4803299p4803400.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] NumericalMethods and SciSmalltalk

by Ignacio Sniechowski

Given that I proposed the name, I couldn't resist to propose the logo :p what do you think? I've checked and the image has a free license. best Nacho *Lic. Ignacio Sniechowski, MBA* *Prosavic SRL* *Tel: (011) 4542-6714* On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:48 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Le 27/1/15 00:29, Werner Kassens a Ã©crit : > >> let me rephrase it <g> just that there are no misunderstandings, >> NumericalMethods is independent of SciSmalltalk and does work in Pharo4 >> > > By SciTalk will include its own copy of NumericalMethods. > > Stef > >> werner >> >> >> On 01/26/2015 10:22 PM, Ignacio Sniechowski wrote: >> >>> That was my question. If in Pharo 4 the NumericalMethods package will be >>> deprecated and instead SciSmalltalk will be de defacto package for stats. >>> >> >> >> > >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by phil＠highoctane.be

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no> wrote: > It's a fact of life that leverage implies rigidity. A rubber crowbar is > flexible, but useless. > Our challenge is, as I see it, to determine the minimum we need to keep > rigid in order to get maximum leverage for doing the rest. > --Trygve > Very insightful point. Case in point: most frameworks. Bootstrap, Seaside, ... All add rigidity but also structure. Phil > > On 03.02.2015 14:34, Marcus Denker wrote: > > > On 03 Feb 2015, at 14:29, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> > wrote: > > > On Feb 3, 2015, at 11:18 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > But the more user it will get the more inflexible will become to change. > That's a big price to pay for abandoning the nomad life. > > > Note that, that statement, is not exactly true. > > The more users it gets, the more social pressure the community will put > on it. > > That happens. > > But... > > Flexibility is function of design and not coupled with community size. > > > And it is a good problem to solve: We need to change the language to make > it easier evolvable. > A very nice research topic. > (which in a second step then can be feed back into the system, making > future evolution easier) > > Marcus > > > -- > > The essence of object orientation is that > objects collaborate to achieve a goal. > --- > Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no <%20trygver(a)ifi.uio.no> > Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ > N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info > Norway Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27 >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by Trygve Reenskaug

It's a fact of life that leverage implies rigidity. A rubber crowbar is flexible, but useless. Our challenge is, as I see it, to determine the minimum we need to keep rigid in order to get maximum leverage for doing the rest. --Trygve On 03.02.2015 14:34, Marcus Denker wrote: > >> On 03 Feb 2015, at 14:29, Sebastian Sastre >> <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com <mailto:sebastian@flowingconcept.com>> >> wrote: >> >> >>> On Feb 3, 2015, at 11:18 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com >>> <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> But the more user it will get the more inflexible will become to >>> change. That's a big price to pay for abandoning the nomad life. >> >> Note that, that statement, is not exactly true. >> >> The more users it gets, the more social pressure the community will >> put on it. >> >> That happens. >> >> But... >> >> Flexibility is function of design and not coupled with community size. >> > > And it is a good problem to solve: We need to change the language to > make it easier evolvable. > A very nice research topic. > (which in a second step then can be feed back into the system, making > future evolution easier) > > Marcus -- The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborateto achieve a goal. --- Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no <mailto:%20trygver@ifi.uio.no> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info Norway Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] High precision arithmetic

by Pierre CHANSON

Hi Werner, you are right, I will try it 2015-02-03 10:22 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com>: > > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:58 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Pierre CHANSON <chans.pierre(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> I was wondering if there was a package to manipulate floats like the >>> MPFR library in C... >>> >> >> One issue with MPFR is the licensing, which is GNU. >> > > No, its LGPL (http://www.mpfr.org/) Now something I didn't know and > just read, you can even statically link an LGPL library, as long as you > provide > > >> >> I wonder if Pharo couldn't get a special licence for embedding as "MPFR has >> continuously been supported by the INRIA <http://www.inria.fr/>...". >> >> Pharo is now 32-bit and uses the floatplugin to do the actual fast math. >> >> Pharo with the 64-bit system will be able to do better and the float >> plugin will have to be rewritten anyway. >> >> But MPFR could be put into a plugin. >> >> As far as I am concerned, I'd rather get something based on GMP ( >> https://gmplib.org/) but we are there in GNU territory. Which is not >> what I want for commercial apps. >> > > > Why GMP? From the timings table it looks like GMP is missing trigonometric > functions, and that MPFR is equally as fast as GMP. > cheers -ben > > >> >> This table: http://www.mpfr.org/mpfr-current/timings.html is showing >> some LGPL licencing that may be easier to deal with. But for sure, none of >> that is MIT :-( >> >> Phil >> >> >> >>> Then I found in http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Web/Draft/Float.pdf >>> that using ScaledDecimal allows exact arithmetics. So I guess ScaledDecimal >>> is the best class to use for playing with 20 decimals numbers ? :) >>> >>> Thanks ! >>> >>> Pierre >>> >> >> >> >> >> >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by Marcus Denker

> On 03 Feb 2015, at 14:29, Sebastian Sastre <sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com> wrote: > > >> On Feb 3, 2015, at 11:18 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> But the more user it will get the more inflexible will become to change. That's a big price to pay for abandoning the nomad life. > > Note that, that statement, is not exactly true. > > The more users it gets, the more social pressure the community will put on it. > > That happens. > > But... > > Flexibility is function of design and not coupled with community size. > And it is a good problem to solve: We need to change the language to make it easier evolvable. A very nice research topic. (which in a second step then can be feed back into the system, making future evolution easier) Marcus

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by Sebastian Sastre

> On Feb 3, 2015, at 11:18 AM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > But the more user it will get the more inflexible will become to change. That's a big price to pay for abandoning the nomad life. Note that, that statement, is not exactly true. The more users it gets, the more social pressure the community will put on it. That happens. But... Flexibility is function of design and not coupled with community size.

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] High precision arithmetic

by Ben Coman

On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:58 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Pierre CHANSON <chans.pierre(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> I was wondering if there was a package to manipulate floats like the MPFR >> library in C... >> > > One issue with MPFR is the licensing, which is GNU. > No, its LGPL (http://www.mpfr.org/) Now something I didn't know and just read, you can even statically link an LGPL library, as long as you provide > > I wonder if Pharo couldn't get a special licence for embedding as "MPFR has > continuously been supported by the INRIA <http://www.inria.fr/>...". > > Pharo is now 32-bit and uses the floatplugin to do the actual fast math. > > Pharo with the 64-bit system will be able to do better and the float > plugin will have to be rewritten anyway. > > But MPFR could be put into a plugin. > > As far as I am concerned, I'd rather get something based on GMP ( > https://gmplib.org/) but we are there in GNU territory. Which is not what > I want for commercial apps. > Why GMP? From the timings table it looks like GMP is missing trigonometric functions, and that MPFR is equally as fast as GMP. cheers -ben > > This table: http://www.mpfr.org/mpfr-current/timings.html is showing some > LGPL licencing that may be easier to deal with. But for sure, none of that > is MIT :-( > > Phil > > > >> Then I found in http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Web/Draft/Float.pdf that >> using ScaledDecimal allows exact arithmetics. So I guess ScaledDecimal is >> the best class to use for playing with 20 decimals numbers ? :) >> >> Thanks ! >> >> Pierre >> > > > > >

Feb. 3, 2015