February 2015 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by kilon alios

well this is why I say its a weak spot. I dont disagree with everything you say. I do agree that a language like C++ goes to a very diffirent direction to Pharo and will attract diffirent kind of people, or even the same people with different set of goals. If you mean something more than that, then I am open to other opinions as always :) My point is that nomads should not be underestimated. But then I am one of them so maybe I am a bit biased :D On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > kilon.alios wrote > > The weak spot in your argument is that you use the worst example you can > > choose to prove it. > > Ha ha ha, did you really just boil my whole post down to two examples of > languages which are "languages you're supposed to use" (which by the way if > you read carefully I never suggest are inherently good ideas)?! > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Slides-from-the-Pharo-Status-talk-at-FOSDEM-2015-tp48… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by Sean P. DeNigris

kilon.alios wrote > If you mean something more than that, then I am open to other opinions as > always :) The only meaning I connected to C++ and Ruby were that they were dogmatically and widely enough approved for use to be rigid by necessity. Based on some of your comments, I assume I probably could have used Python as an example of a language that got popular enough to expand beyond people that truly "get it", and thus have significant push back to non-backward-compatibility in the community. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Slides-from-the-Pharo-Status-talk-at-FOSDEM-2015-tp48… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] spotter preview

by kilon alios

"And also as someone pointed out during Pharo Days... to have tooltips above the buttons showing the shortcut." +1 GT tools have greatly enhanced the Pharo experience. I do think that GTInspector and GTPlayground could use a GUI cleanup in their design but GTSpotter is gorgeously well done. The nice thing about this tool is that the way its designed it can replace pretty much every single tool inside Pharo. I could imagine myself coding solely inside it. Who knows maybe in the future :) On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > The keybindings are: >> - trigger Spotter with Shift+Enter. >> - toggle preview with Cmd+P (or Alt+P on Windows/Linux) >> > > It would be great to have all the keybindings (also moving inside the > Spotter) written somewhere in one place (for all platforms) so one doesn't > need to go scavenge blogs and source code for them. > And also as someone pointed out during Pharo Days... to have tooltips > above the buttons showing the shortcut. > > But I love this thing... you always add something cool. :) > > Peter >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by kilon alios

The weak spot in your argument is that you use the worst example you can choose to prove it. Ruby. Ruby has two big issues for your line of arguments. First its popularity was build by a single man. A nomad. His name is David Heinemeier Hansson <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Heinemeier_Hansson>. He is the guy behind that library you probably know as "Ruby on Rails". Not only he created that library alone, not only that library is the single reason why Ruby is so popular, though personally I would not call it a popular language, but he also did not allow people to commit to his code for a single year before opening up the project to external commits. A true nomad if you ask me. The second issue is that you use Ruby as an example language that does not care about design and cool ideas, which is kinda strange if you think about how much Ruby copies from smalltalk. Actually I would even argue that Ruby is more smalltalk than even objective c. But further more its not hard to find evidence of the contributions of nomads to our society, whether you learn about Einstein, Newton , Socrtates etc. Our western civilization is based on the effort of individuals that worked alone, "standing on the shoulder of giants" , but alone none the less and they did not only succeed but carried modern civilisation to what we take today for granted (and we should not). Codings of course is no exception. So even though I acknowledge the huge importance of teamwork , cooperation and competition, I am also perfectly capable of seeing nomads as something vastly more than people living in mud huts. I also dont share your optimism that an "idea" / "design orientated" coder will have any problem materialising his dream software in the "abomination" language called C++ . As a matter of fact tons of great software with gorgeous design that people highly praise has been built in this language. For me one such thing is the QT framework for which Pharo has no alternative that can approach it even in the distance of 100 light years. And believe me I am Noooooooo fan of C++. Like you I love Pharo, but unlike you I dont think I will live long enough to see Pharo used by 1 million people. But it is one of those things I will be very glad to be wrong about. It would be great to have something like QT for Pharo , or other great libraries. But even if Pharo remains small , no regrets , I love it and I will keep coding in it. But then I dont see Pharo as neither the Blue , or the Red, or the Pink pill. Is just another tool with advantages and disadvantages. A personal choice that I dont try to impose to others as "better". On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > kilon.alios wrote > > I do agree, that nomads do not build cathedrals but there is the flip > side > > of the coin, why one would want to be a nomad and the great benefits > > coming > > with being a nomad > > > > Guido the creator of python explains it from the side of the Python > > Standard library but I think it applies fine for Pharo too > > Cathedral to me means architecture i.e. the application of forethought and > understanding to make the most beautiful, functional structure in the most > efficient way VS. nomads slapping together temporary mud huts that can be > abandoned and easily rebuilt elsewhere in better conditions. This is > orthogonal to the also-important issue that rigidity often accompanies a > large user-base. > > One could have a beautiful cathedral that is frequented only by the > faithful, and not turned into a tourist attraction like Notre Dame or Il > Duomo di Firenze. Steph often says that if we were looking to be famous, > we'd be programming in Ruby ;) Conversely, one could have a mud hut that > becomes a historic landmark or revered for it's earthly charm, and can > never > be improved. > > And as for popularity = rigidity, that's certainly true for languages taken > up by pop culture. That is because of one of Alan Kay's frequent > observations - that nearly everyone is driven by utility, with only a tiny > minority concerned inherently with ideas. Once people are programming a > language because that's the language "you're supposed to use" - like C++ or > Ruby - the utilitarianists flock in, and, because they are concerned only > with its usefulness, they will not tolerate much disturbance due to > "beauty", "design", or other intangibles. > > But, who says we have to go there? I for one am not interested in that > game. > One estimate says there are 18.5 million software developers in the world > [1]. I don't remember the exact percentage of inherent-idea people, but > let's be extremely conservative and say 5% (I think it was much higher). > That gives us 0.05 x 18.5M = 925,000 potential Pharo users that would revel > in the idea of an infinite game pursuing a beautiful, simple liberator of > human expression; and therefore willing to tolerate and adapt themselves to > the inevitable change, just like we all do now. > > Now, here's the important thing to remember... As we get more popular, the > above plan will leave over 17,500,000 potential complainers to potentially > distract and discourage us! > > These are the challenges of those who dare to venture into the Blue Plane, > but isn't it a beautiful game?! > > [1] > > http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/european-technology/there-are-185-million-… > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Slides-from-the-Pharo-Status-talk-at-FOSDEM-2015-tp48… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Slides from the Pharo Status talk at FOSDEM 2015

by Sean P. DeNigris

kilon.alios wrote > The weak spot in your argument is that you use the worst example you can > choose to prove it. Ha ha ha, did you really just boil my whole post down to two examples of languages which are "languages you're supposed to use" (which by the way if you read carefully I never suggest are inherently good ideas)?! ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Slides-from-the-Pharo-Status-talk-at-FOSDEM-2015-tp48… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Feb. 3, 2015

Image growing size

by Laura Risani

Hi all, The official image i've downloaded weighted about 40 MB. Now its size is about 200 MB. What is the explanation? Is this normal or have i done something wrong? I haven't been using globals, just downloaded and defined some packages. The only over persistent thing i've done is to keep an instance variable in some classes i wanted to have a unique instance. Best, Laura

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] spotter preview

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

> > The keybindings are: > - trigger Spotter with Shift+Enter. > - toggle preview with Cmd+P (or Alt+P on Windows/Linux) > It would be great to have all the keybindings (also moving inside the Spotter) written somewhere in one place (for all platforms) so one doesn't need to go scavenge blogs and source code for them. And also as someone pointed out during Pharo Days... to have tooltips above the buttons showing the shortcut. But I love this thing... you always add something cool. :) Peter

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Cleaning code completition's namespace

by Guillermo Polito

Hi! Spotlight or Spotter? Which version of Pharo are you using? I ask because the old Spotlight should be using the same code completion mechanism => it should appear/disappear from both at the same time... As for spotter, I don't have an answer now :) Saludos, Guille El Tue Feb 03 2015 at 5:24:26 PM, Laura Risani <laura.risani(a)gmail.com> escribiÃ³: > Thank you all for your answers. > > Hi Guille , > > Nice solution! It worked perfectly for Code Completition! > > Yet the obsolete symbols (class names and selectors) keep showing in > Spotlight, but i guess this is too implementation specific. I will step > through its execution to try to find out how it works. > > Best, > Laura > > > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Guillermo Polito < > guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Well yes, but GCs are happening all the time :). So the problem is that >> someone is keeping a strong reference on the symbol. >> >> I tried the following: >> >> - create a method named #unusedUnexpectedMessage: That came up in the >> auto completion, ok >> - remove it: Still in auto completion >> - force GC a looot: still in auto completion >> >> After chasing strong references I could clean up my image by doing: >> >> ChangeSet cleanUp: true. >> RecentMessageList cleanUp. >> 10 timesRepeat: [Smalltalk garbageCollect] >> >> First obvious thing: changesets and friends (lets also think about >> nautilus history that may do that) could keep strong references on symbols. >> >> Then the question is if that is correct or not... To me the problem is >> that the auto completion mechanism is pretty primitive and depends on all >> existing symbols instead of <the subset of symbols that could be messages>. >> >> Guille >> >> El Mon Feb 02 2015 at 12:05:49 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> >> escribiÃ³: >> >> But weak refs are only killed after GC, right ? >>> >>> And even then... >>> >>> > On 02 Feb 2015, at 12:03, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > It's the table that keeps the symbols and checks their uniqueness. >>> > >>> > but AFAIK the symbol table is weak. So probably it's the completion >>> mechanism that is keeping extra references... >>> > El Mon Feb 02 2015 at 11:52:28 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be < >>> phil(a)highoctane.be> escribiÃ³: >>> > Got the same problem here. >>> > >>> > Annoying when third parties have to do something in the environment as >>> they are shown things that do not exist. >>> > >>> > Where to look? What's the symbol intern table? >>> > >>> > Phil >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:44 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>> > Probably by resetting the Symbol intern table. but no time to dive >>> into it now. >>> > Hi all, >>> > >>> > Code completition tools show class/method old names i've changed and >>> no longer use. How can i remove all unused (occurring nowhere in source >>> code) or unimplemented names? >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > Laura >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] spotter preview

by Tudor Girba

Hi, We thought that the visual space occupied when in preview mode might be too much. But, once you open the preview, it stays opened for subsequent usages. Cheers, Doru On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > nacho wrote > > Really cool. > > Yes, awesome!! Why not preview by default (like Mac's Spotlight)? At > Smalltalk's high-granularity, I would guess there's not much of a lag, no? > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/spotter-preview-tp4803299p4803400.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"

Feb. 3, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Cleaning code completition's namespace

by Laura Risani

Thank you all for your answers. Hi Guille , Nice solution! It worked perfectly for Code Completition! Yet the obsolete symbols (class names and selectors) keep showing in Spotlight, but i guess this is too implementation specific. I will step through its execution to try to find out how it works. Best, Laura On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Well yes, but GCs are happening all the time :). So the problem is that > someone is keeping a strong reference on the symbol. > > I tried the following: > > - create a method named #unusedUnexpectedMessage: That came up in the > auto completion, ok > - remove it: Still in auto completion > - force GC a looot: still in auto completion > > After chasing strong references I could clean up my image by doing: > > ChangeSet cleanUp: true. > RecentMessageList cleanUp. > 10 timesRepeat: [Smalltalk garbageCollect] > > First obvious thing: changesets and friends (lets also think about > nautilus history that may do that) could keep strong references on symbols. > > Then the question is if that is correct or not... To me the problem is > that the auto completion mechanism is pretty primitive and depends on all > existing symbols instead of <the subset of symbols that could be messages>. > > Guille > > El Mon Feb 02 2015 at 12:05:49 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> > escribiÃ³: > > But weak refs are only killed after GC, right ? >> >> And even then... >> >> > On 02 Feb 2015, at 12:03, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > It's the table that keeps the symbols and checks their uniqueness. >> > >> > but AFAIK the symbol table is weak. So probably it's the completion >> mechanism that is keeping extra references... >> > El Mon Feb 02 2015 at 11:52:28 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be < >> phil(a)highoctane.be> escribiÃ³: >> > Got the same problem here. >> > >> > Annoying when third parties have to do something in the environment as >> they are shown things that do not exist. >> > >> > Where to look? What's the symbol intern table? >> > >> > Phil >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:44 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> > Probably by resetting the Symbol intern table. but no time to dive into >> it now. >> > Hi all, >> > >> > Code completition tools show class/method old names i've changed and no >> longer use. How can i remove all unused (occurring nowhere in source code) >> or unimplemented names? >> > >> > Best, >> > Laura >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >>

Feb. 3, 2015