February 2015 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again

by Johan Fabry

In any case, my slides are pretty useless without me giving the complete song and dance routine as well ;-) Best to see them together with the video ... > On Feb 12, 2015, at 17:59, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > >> On 12 Feb 2015, at 17:53, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> BTW, Johan, I cannot find your slides in http://www.slideshare.net/pharoproject/presentations ? >> > I have the .key files.. I will double check and upload the missingsâ¦ > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again

by Johan Fabry

Kilon, your second paragraph can be understood as a description of Spec. There is a low level code and an extensions API, and ALL widgets are implemented as such extensions and you can assemble a GUI framework. What you propose as your ideal solution is reimplementing this wheel all over again. In the end, you never clearly stated why you donât like Spec. I mean, beyond the questions that I provided you an answer for some time ago. So please, instead of saying âI donât like Xâ clarify exactly what it is that you donât like and why. Otherwise there will never be advances and itâs annoying to hear the same vague complaints all over again ... > On Feb 12, 2015, at 15:28, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Frankly big libraries dont make much sense for me when it comes to Pharo. Sure if we were talking about Python I would say yes. I do believe however that Pharo makes it already very easy to combine libraries together. > > So for me the ideal solution would be a very low level core that comes with very well documented extensions API and then widgets are implemented as third party extensions that will allow you to assemble a GUI framework tailor made to your own needs. Unfortunately making such a complex core will require quite some effort . So my idea is not without its own problems. > > So I would have to say no , I dont agree, at least I think we imagine very different things. > > The goal of Spec may not be to replace Morphic but then the goal of the human race was not to go to the moon until one day scientists told us its possible. The same can happen with Spec, keep improving it , extending it and people will keep using it more and more in place of Morphic even if Spec still keeps relying in Morphic. Afterall its not difficult to imagine Spec one day in the distant future coming with its own backend. None can predict the future afterall, even if you invent it (sorry Alan). But then this what makes future so exciting , its unpredictable nature. ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] recover lost changes

by Ben Coman

So is the plan to integrate Epicea for Pharo 4 Release as the default mechanism, and leave removal of the existing mechanism until Pharo 5? cheers -ben On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > On 12 Feb 2015, at 17:36, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com> wrote: > > > > Is Epicea able to run parallel with the exiting changes framework, do we > have to rip the latter out first? > > I works in parallel now. The idea is to remove the other mechanism in a > second step. > > Marcus > > >

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again

by Ben Coman

About the architecture of Spec, as I understand it, Spec is a layer on top of Morphic, written such that later Morphic could be swapped out from under it and something else sued in place of Morphic. Now could their possibly be some common widget-models sitting underneath Spec, Morpi, MVC or any other new system ? cheers -ben On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 12:37 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > They are not yet public but soon will be. > > > On 12 Feb 2015, at 17:09, Pablo R. Digonzelli <pdigonzelli(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > where can i watch it? > > > > Pablo > > > > ----- Mensaje original ----- > > De: "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven(a)stfx.eu> > > Para: nicolaihess(a)web.de, "Any question about pharo is welcome" < > pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > > Enviados: Jueves, 12 de Febrero 2015 3:29:42 > > Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again > > > >> On 12 Feb 2015, at 00:46, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: > >> > >> But much howtos or tutorials widely scattered and aren't up to date. > > > > Johan Fabry's talk at the Pharo Days was an excellent introduction to > Spec, watch it. > > > > >

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again

by Marcus Denker

> On 12 Feb 2015, at 17:53, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > BTW, Johan, I cannot find your slides in http://www.slideshare.net/pharoproject/presentations ? > I have the .key files.. I will double check and upload the missingsâ¦ >> On 12 Feb 2015, at 13:45, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: >> >> >>> On Feb 12, 2015, at 07:29, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 12 Feb 2015, at 00:46, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: >>>> >>>> But much howtos or tutorials widely scattered and aren't up to date. >>> >>> Johan Fabry's talk at the Pharo Days was an excellent introduction to Spec, watch it. >> >> >> Well, thank you very much for the recommendation :-). Are the videos of the talks online? I did not see an announcement for that, and Iâd like to see some of the talks I missed on Friday due to being stuck in the Douai snow ... >> >> >> ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- >> >> Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry >> PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile >> >> > >

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

BTW, Johan, I cannot find your slides in http://www.slideshare.net/pharoproject/presentations ? > On 12 Feb 2015, at 13:45, Johan Fabry <jfabry(a)dcc.uchile.cl> wrote: > > >> On Feb 12, 2015, at 07:29, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >> >> >>> On 12 Feb 2015, at 00:46, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: >>> >>> But much howtos or tutorials widely scattered and aren't up to date. >> >> Johan Fabry's talk at the Pharo Days was an excellent introduction to Spec, watch it. > > > Well, thank you very much for the recommendation :-). Are the videos of the talks online? I did not see an announcement for that, and Iâd like to see some of the talks I missed on Friday due to being stuck in the Douai snow ... > > > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- > > Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry > PLEIAD lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > >

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] recover lost changes

by Marcus Denker

> On 12 Feb 2015, at 17:36, Ben Coman <btc(a)openInWorld.com> wrote: > > Is Epicea able to run parallel with the exiting changes framework, do we have to rip the latter out first? I works in parallel now. The idea is to remove the other mechanism in a second step. Marcus

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

They are not yet public but soon will be. > On 12 Feb 2015, at 17:09, Pablo R. Digonzelli <pdigonzelli(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > where can i watch it? > > Pablo > > ----- Mensaje original ----- > De: "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven(a)stfx.eu> > Para: nicolaihess(a)web.de, "Any question about pharo is welcome" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Enviados: Jueves, 12 de Febrero 2015 3:29:42 > Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again > >> On 12 Feb 2015, at 00:46, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)web.de> wrote: >> >> But much howtos or tutorials widely scattered and aren't up to date. > > Johan Fabry's talk at the Pharo Days was an excellent introduction to Spec, watch it. >

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] recover lost changes

by Ben Coman

Is Epicea able to run parallel with the exiting changes framework, do we have to rip the latter out first? cheers -ben On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:38 PM, S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar(a)gmail.com > wrote: > Can I get the link to this change set. > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:05 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> > wrote: > >> Marcus Denker-4 wrote >> > The issue is here >> >> And the solution is right there in the comment! >> >> >> Pharo Issue Tracker wrote >> > ChangesLog default >> > is not registered for the SystemAnnouncer. >> > Reinitializing it should help: >> > ChangesLog reset;default. >> >> Works on both 3.0 and 4.0. I made a parent issue 14916 and an issue for >> 4.0 >> 14918 (13290 was about 3.0). >> >> >> >> >> ----- >> Cheers, >> Sean >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/recover-lost-changes-tp4804929p4805160.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> >

Feb. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo and ui again

by Sebastian Heidbrink

Hi Stephan, Hi All, Joachim and I come from the same, commercial world, and we are not used to initial problems regarding the UI we are used to huge limitations once your models become more and more complex and custom vizualisations are desired. On first sight the videos and examples are tempting and give a beginner the feeling that everythign is possible in Pharo/Squeak. Well it definitely is and I myself are also more the "do it your self" guy. But there are simple tasks that should not need a huge involvement to accomplish a visualization and manipulation of a model. I think there is most stuff out there in Pharo that is needed to built a nice UI with Model interaction. It took me jsut a few hours to built a nice Glamour based data model browser. So why do I struggle to built a login view?! I think this is because Glamour is its own example.... It is implemented in one way and there are few distractions. GTSpotter is already too difficult to understand again.... What Pharo needs and I do not think that this is a too huge task is. A clear destiction of M, V and C accomplished by ClassNamingConvertions and package sub-division of these. A browser that just lists all the available basic morphs and their examples A sushi store demo according to the current Pharo release. A clear documentation what, Spec, Polymorph, Morphic,... are representing and on which "layer" they are positioned. OS-Layer, Common-Layer, Layout-Layer, Event-Layer. Based on first steps experiance with Seaside I can still remember that the only reason why I was able to get started fast and even during the early days of Seaside were the two examples, Scriptacoulous demo site and the Sushi Store. With the help of those I even learnt some CSS and JS ... The jQuery example was already to much limited to the usage of jQuery and it was much more difficult to use the exampel site as an example to go on with an own project. How much time would it cost to implement a small sushi store with in image persitsancy? Also,.... a documentation on how to deplay this store and make a real Pharo app. I think such a demo would also show the community how huge a impact a new Pharo release does to a commercial product. A steady update from release to release would be useful as a pharo version migration guide. It could also start a discussion on how to do things and show each of us where things are unclear and under specified. We should take what we have and put an example together instead of thinking/discussing what kind of framework might be best or better. There are so many books an Smalltalk patterns, MVC,.... but there are actually no real official examples available Stephan! Thank you so much for starting this! I will have a look asap. Right now I am more focused on the local Software group. I would like to have some application "WITH UI" and even 3D where I can show off live programming! I admire the energy the community and the board puts into Pharo and I can only imagine how difficult it must be to find and lead into a certain direction. Thank you! So and now her eis the question that I think needs to be discussed since it is the most controversial answered to me. "Spec or not to Spec?" I am kidding! But my current counter is 5 for Spec and 5 against Spec. I think some rason could be that Spec is misunderstood, or still under development/inmature. I can't tell, but a beginner wants to know: "WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO!?" Thanks for reading! Sebastian Am 12.02.2015 um 07:22 schrieb Stephan Eggermont: > Sebastian wrote: >> After 5 days I can tell ,that I am lost in Morphic, UIManager, Traits/No-Traits, Spec, GLMMorphic, Poly.... >> And sometimes things are even mixed up and I am not able to decide which approach to follow,... > If your goal is a "Maya Editor"-like UI, I've put together something that could be useful as > a starting point. I would be interested in how to encapsulate this in Spec, and in what should > change in Bloc. The idea is to grow it into a tutorial. > > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~StephanEggermont/MorphicDraw > > Stephan > > > > > > >

Feb. 12, 2015