December 2015 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

by Dimitris Chloupis

I am a huge supporter of Pharo being directly connected to the outside world and not just recreate (I wont use the term "reinvent the wheel" because I was always found it a stupid remark anyway) something that it exists out there without an obvious advantage. However it makes sense in many cases because of the tiny fact that when one chooses and dedicates his life on one language he or she will want to code on that language alone. I think in case of Pillar makes sense to create something in Pharo because the existing solutions are not that powerful anyway with the notable exception of Latex which is something that Pillar can use and inline anyway. Personally I love Pillar, the syntax, installation and the general usage is super simple. I also think that having a documentation frameworks instead of using one from another language is a must have because documentation is super important and you should not be limited by what people do in other languages and its not that complex to implement like for example version control. Of course Pillar is somewhere in between because on one hand yes its a Pharo implementation but on the other it depends on Latex for the creation of pdfs, so I think overall its a very well designed frameworks with very good syntax, small learning curve and enormous abilities because of the latex integration. So to answer your question Why Pillar ? Because its awesome :) On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 9:37 AM SaÅ¡a JaniÅ¡ka <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 21:41 -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas wrote: > > > Skeletons go beyond themes (grav also have them). They're like > > mini-sites ready to be filled out with your own content. > > Like demo-sites or with empty slots to add content? > > > The fact that I don't need to compile the site to see the output. > > Nikola have implemented something like that, but is not the default > > behavior. > > I know about live-reload which is present in Nikola - not sure about > Ecstatic, but I do not expect more from static-site-generator. > > > Interactivity as a default is what makes me so happy with > > Pharo/Smalltalk :-). > > Well, that's another world. ;) > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of > friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will > remain the greatest enemy. > > > > > >

Dec. 29, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] what is Pharo's mission statement? (was Re: Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar))

by Ben Coman

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 6:05 AM, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 12/28/2015 01:42 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >>> >>> On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:33, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/28/2015 01:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:11, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned. >>>>> >>>>> Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the >>>>> pattern for exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? In >>>>> other words, what is the mission statement? This would help me grasp the >>>>> motivations of the community and is not a meaningless exercise for the >>>>> community, from a leadership development perspective.. >>>> >>>> http://pharo.org/about. >>>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf >>> >>> This is awesome, thank you for posting it. It mentions a roadmap. Is >>> there such a page? >> >> We are working on an updated roadmap. > > > Thanks for setting the right expectations, please enjoy the holidays. I will > enjoy it when it is properly aged. > >> We will update it to form a roadmap soonâ¦ (I wanted to have it done >> already, but was busy >> with other things end of the yearâ¦) > > > I understand and the results of your efforts are plain to see. Pharo-5 runs > my work well. I have been reading your section 4 in the Vision document with > great interest. Particularly, I find I like 4.2, 4.3, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8, > 4.11 and 4.12. I would like to try my work on top of ocean. 4.2 FileSystem was integrated integrated into Pharo 2 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=f… 4.3 Announcement were introduced in Pharo 1.3 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=a… Ephemeron VM support available soon in Spur VM (?). Probably work more needed image side (?) 4.5 Bootstrap Core - Work In Progress https://ci.inria.fr/pharo/job/Pharo-5.0-Update-Step-3-Minimal/Full 4.6 Fully parametrized compiler tool chain I'm not clear on what "fully parameterized" encompasses, but the old Compiler was replaced by new OpalCompiler in Pharo 3 - I guess to satisfy this. https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=o… 4.7 Packages as real objects Begun in Pharo 2 with introduction of RPackage. Completed in Pharo 4 with removal of PackageInfo. https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=p… 4.8 Package Meta-Data Not sure what this entails or status. Package Manifest introduced in Pharo 2 https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=m… 4.11 New Network Layer - I don't know. 4.12 Serializers - Fuel is the default serializer since Pharo 2. I don't know the rest of the scope for this point. https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-changelogs/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=f… cheers -ben

Dec. 29, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Smallworlds - Interactive Fiction Framework

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 28 Dec 2015, at 18:08, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > >> I don't know if this is the appropriate venue to do that, but I'd like to >> announce that I finished a stable implementation of a framework for >> developing Interactive Fiction in Pharo Smalltalk. > > Yes it is! > > Do you have a screenshots or something like that? > I have no idea what is a Interactive Fiction: a textual adventure game? yes :) > >> >> It is based on an old code written by Bob Jarvis for Dolphin, but it has >> been changed so much that it is almost something new. >> >> This is my first project and I'm still working around Metacello and >> polishing stuff up. So I appreciate any code contributions, comments or >> thoughts about it. >> >> It is hosted on Smalltalkhub: >> (http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~ericvm/Smallworlds) >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Smallworlds-Interactive-Fiction-Framework-tp4868560.h… >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > >

Dec. 29, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

by SaÅ¡a JaniÅ¡ka

On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 21:41 -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas wrote: > Skeletons go beyond themes (grav also have them). They're likeÂ > mini-sites ready to be filled out with your own content. Like demo-sites or with empty slots to add content? > The fact that I don't need to compile the site to see the output. > Nikola have implemented something like that, but is not the default > behavior. I know about live-reload which is present in Nikola - not sure about Ecstatic, but I do not expect more from static-site-generator. > Interactivity as a default is what makes me so happy withÂ > Pharo/Smalltalk :-). Well, that's another world. ;) Sincerely, Gour --Â For him who has conquered the mind, the mind is the best of friends; but for one who has failed to do so, his mind will remain the greatest enemy.

Dec. 29, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

On 28/12/15 13:28, SaÅ¡a JaniÅ¡ka wrote: > On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 11:09 -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas wrote: > >> but themes, skeletons and interactivity. (Details in the referred blog >> post). > I agree that there could be more themes available, although I'm not 100% > sure I understand what is special about grav's skeleton's since it seems > to me that such things are usually part of Nikola's theme. In any case, > I understand that having larger choice to srart with is nice. Skeletons go beyond themes (grav also have them). They're like mini-sites ready to be filled out with your own content. > What do you mean by interactivity? The fact that I don't need to compile the site to see the output. Nikola have implemented something like that, but is not the default behavior. Interactivity as a default is what makes me so happy with Pharo/Smalltalk :-). Cheers, Offray

Dec. 29, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

On 28/12/15 17:05, stepharo wrote: > >> Yes, that is true. That is a cost of a smaller community. But the >> problem here is that your solution creates a self fulfilling >> situation. If everybody who comes to Pharo is encouraged to use tools >> outside of Pharo rather than using, improving and extending the tools >> in Pharo. Then the community is working against itself. And the tools >> never reach what the person was wanting to use. > > +1 -1 with explanation ;-) : I don't think this will be the necessary case more if Pharo is a long term game. Pharo needs to work better with the external world. It's already trying to make that with Git and the abstracting the DVCS layer, its putting tools like fossil in the radar. I don't think that making the same for flat file web site generators (static like Nikola or dynamic like grav) and light markup and data serialization languages is different that trying to work better with flat file source code management systems or that is having the community working against itself. I have proposed a long/mid term game by using Asbtract Syntax Trees to work better with Pandoc. Trying to not reinvet git/fossil inside Pharo is a good thing the community and doesn't preclude the use and improvement of Monticello. Trying to not reinvet grav/nikola/pandoc inside Pharo its also a good think and doesn't preclude esctatic/pillar exploration and improvement, but in a long term game playing well with others with different combinations could be wiser. >> >> Pharo will improve more at a minimum if the people who love Pharo use >> Pharo to scratch their itches and use Pharo to create the tools to >> scratch their itches. If we continually look outside, we might as >> well go outside. Pharo is more like an operating system/environment >> than a simple language. More like Linux/Unix and C/Python, than C or >> Python alone. We prefer our tools to be written native to our >> environment rather than external to it. It is different that Python, >> Ruby, Lua, PHP or whatever. >> >> There are so many advantages to using tools in Pharo when using >> Pharo. Since Pharo is a full environment on top of any OS, it is >> exceptionally portable. Put it in a folder on a flash drive with >> appropriate VMs and off you go. >> >> It is also so easy to simply snapshot where you are to save your >> state in development or exploration of a problem. So many things that >> are easy in Pharo that are difficult, hard or near impossible to do >> elsewhere. I understand that, and the dynamic nature of the environment makes that "reinvention" inside it to make a lot of sense because we have the interactivity we're used to. But that doesn't preclude playing well with others (including other languages, frameworks and tools) without meaning that we will go outside for everything and leave Pharo as a ghost town (it doesn't happen with DVCS like git). >> >> If Pharo users were to drop Pillar and begin to use Pandoc, then we >> be using tools that we have no control over and tools that we are >> likely not to contribute to development of. If we then had an need >> which is not met by the tools, then what do we do? Do we now adopt >> yet another language, environment, editor, ... in order to meet that >> need? That is fine for people whose preferred environment and toolset >> is so defined. But that is not the preferred way in Pharo (or >> Smalltalk). >> Same applies for git and nobody is talking about a self fulfilling prophesy here. >> Pharo is a long game tool. We are happy to grow it slow, steady and >> stable. We are happy to have more and more help to do so. We want to >> grow Pharo and its tools. Not Pandoc, Python and their tools. They >> are able to take care of themselves. I want to be using the evolving >> Pharo environment and tools not just now, but in 10 years, in 20 >> years. I see no other tools (outside of the Smalltalk world) that >> have this kind of vision. This is best served by contributing to the >> environment and the tools in Pharo. Rather than doing what might be >> expedient in the here and now. It affects my here and nows in the >> future in a more profitable and productive way. > > +1 +-1. Fortunately this is a diverse community where making pharo better doesn't imply it will not work fine with other languages, frameworks, cultures: See ephestos and bridges with python/blender, FileTree and bridges with git or grafoscopio and bridges with pandoc. >> >> Now there are times when venturing outside of Pharo is required. And >> when that time occurs, we need to be exceptionally well able to do >> so. And I see great hope on that front. >> >> But when we do not need to venture outside of Pharo. Those of us who >> believe in the vision of Pharo are much more highly advantaged by >> contributing to the tools in this community. Than to looks outside >> the community for tools which my momentarily meet a need. >> That moment is different for each of us. I need footnotes and bibliographic references and integration with zotero now. Pandoc gives me that and Pillar doesn't. Some people need now things that git has and monticello doesn't. That doesn't mean that we're not working in the pharo improvement and vision, but by leveraging into tools like git/pandoc the stuff we can focus only in the long term game, we can made more valuable contributions now where we consider our interest and skills more valuable, that in reimplementing features of git/pandoc inside Pharo, which doesn't preclude of others of making improvements in the fronts of native DVCS or documentation. >> I think adding footnotes to Pillar is a great idea. I am not ready to >> do so. I am not a qualified Pillar user yet. But when I am, I would >> not hesitate to add it to Pillar and improve the tool of the >> environment I prefer to use. >> When I become a more proficient user of smalltalk and pharo I would like to use Abstract Syntax Trees for scripting and manipulation of pandoc inside pharo. Meanwhile I will try to focus on interactive documentation and data visualization inside pharo, but using external tools and markups for import/export. >> Just my 2 cents. It is worth what you paid for it. :) >> >> Shalom. >> >> Jimmie >> >> > My 2 cents more. Cheers, Offray

Dec. 29, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Block that doesn't leak memory

by Mariano Martinez Peck

This is halt related, but you can see how Fuel checks wether the closure is "clean" and if true, it serializes a pruned version of it so that to avoid a whole stack. See BlockClosure >> fuelAccept: fuelAccept: aGeneralMapper ^ self *shouldBeSubstitutedByCleanCopy* "The 'onRecursionDo:' is just to avoid an infinitive loop for the substitution. The cleanCopy MUST be a clean copy so it can be serialized normally" ifTrue: [ aGeneralMapper visitSubstitution: self by: *self cleanCopy *onRecursionDo: [ aGeneralMapper visitVariableObject: self ] ] ifFalse: [ aGeneralMapper visitVariableObject: self ] Cheers, On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 1:31 PM, ClÃ©ment Bera <bera.clement(a)gmail.com> wrote: > There is no way of creating such blocks currently. > > In fact only non local returns and debugging are problems as remote > variables are accessed through an indirection. A lightweight block (to > reuse your terms) with no outer context but accesses to remote temporary > variables would work fine. > > The common terminology is as follow: > - Blocks are called clean blocks if there are no remote temporary variable > access and no outer context references > - They're called copying block if there are remote temporary access but > still no outer context > - They're called full blocks if they have an outer context (One can > sometimes distinguish also full and fullcopying blocks, but it does not > matter) > > Pharo supports only full blocks, on the contrary to other smalltalk such > as VW. I did a working implementation of clean blocks, as you describe, but > I didn't integrate it because I didn't like loosing part of the debugging > features. That was years ago I am not sure I can find the code anymore. I > can explain the design though as it's pretty straightforward. > > To implement such blocks, you need to share a fake outerContext between > all the clean blocks created in the same method. You can't have nil as an > outer context else the VM behaves badly. Instead of the block creation > bytecode, you can use the pushLiteral instruction to push the BlockClosure > created at compilation time and stored in the literal frame of the method. > You can put the bytecode of clean blocks at the end of the bytecode zone of > the method, followed by a returnTop instruction at the end (without the > return instruction the JIT is confused on where the end of the bytecoded > method is). Let me know if you want to implement that I can help. I still > think it should be an external library and not in the base Pharo though for > debugging purpose. > > To solve your problem of moving blocks around, it may also be possible to > use ephemerons to remove the dependency. Maybe some ephemeron experts can > help you there. > > 2015-12-26 16:47 GMT+01:00 webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws>: > >> BlockClosure objects hold reference to object that created them via >> outerContext receiver. This can cause memory leaks when moving blocks >> around/deepcopying/serializing. >> >> Is there a way to get "lightweight" block that has empty outerContext >> (like >> when executing code in Playground) or is there another class for such >> "lightweight" blocks somewhere? >> >> Obviously I'm talking about blocks that don't reference variables in >> enclosing scope and don't do nonlocal return. >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/Block-that-doesn-t-leak-memory-tp4868529.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

Dec. 29, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

by stepharo

> Yes, that is true. That is a cost of a smaller community. But the > problem here is that your solution creates a self fulfilling > situation. If everybody who comes to Pharo is encouraged to use tools > outside of Pharo rather than using, improving and extending the tools > in Pharo. Then the community is working against itself. And the tools > never reach what the person was wanting to use. +1 > > Pharo will improve more at a minimum if the people who love Pharo use > Pharo to scratch their itches and use Pharo to create the tools to > scratch their itches. If we continually look outside, we might as well > go outside. Pharo is more like an operating system/environment than a > simple language. More like Linux/Unix and C/Python, than C or Python > alone. We prefer our tools to be written native to our environment > rather than external to it. It is different that Python, Ruby, Lua, > PHP or whatever. > > There are so many advantages to using tools in Pharo when using Pharo. > Since Pharo is a full environment on top of any OS, it is > exceptionally portable. Put it in a folder on a flash drive with > appropriate VMs and off you go. > > It is also so easy to simply snapshot where you are to save your state > in development or exploration of a problem. So many things that are > easy in Pharo that are difficult, hard or near impossible to do > elsewhere. > > If Pharo users were to drop Pillar and begin to use Pandoc, then we be > using tools that we have no control over and tools that we are likely > not to contribute to development of. If we then had an need which is > not met by the tools, then what do we do? Do we now adopt yet another > language, environment, editor, ... in order to meet that need? That is > fine for people whose preferred environment and toolset is so defined. > But that is not the preferred way in Pharo (or Smalltalk). > > Pharo is a long game tool. We are happy to grow it slow, steady and > stable. We are happy to have more and more help to do so. We want to > grow Pharo and its tools. Not Pandoc, Python and their tools. They are > able to take care of themselves. I want to be using the evolving Pharo > environment and tools not just now, but in 10 years, in 20 years. I > see no other tools (outside of the Smalltalk world) that have this > kind of vision. This is best served by contributing to the environment > and the tools in Pharo. Rather than doing what might be expedient in > the here and now. It affects my here and nows in the future in a more > profitable and productive way. +1 > > Now there are times when venturing outside of Pharo is required. And > when that time occurs, we need to be exceptionally well able to do so. > And I see great hope on that front. > > But when we do not need to venture outside of Pharo. Those of us who > believe in the vision of Pharo are much more highly advantaged by > contributing to the tools in this community. Than to looks outside the > community for tools which my momentarily meet a need. > > I think adding footnotes to Pillar is a great idea. I am not ready to > do so. I am not a qualified Pillar user yet. But when I am, I would > not hesitate to add it to Pillar and improve the tool of the > environment I prefer to use. > > Just my 2 cents. It is worth what you paid for it. :) > > Shalom. > > Jimmie > >

Dec. 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] why Pillar

by SaÅ¡a JaniÅ¡ka

On Pon, 2015-12-28 at 12:19 -0600, Jimmie Houchin wrote: > There are so many advantages to using tools in Pharo when using > Pharo.Â I agree with it and that's why I asked what might be some advantages of using Pillar as documentation tool. > Do we now adopt yet anotherÂ language, environment, editor, ... in > order to meet that need? That isÂ fine for people whose preferred > environment and toolset is so defined.Â But that is not the preferred > way in Pharo (or Smalltalk). I believe you understand it's not feasible to have *every* required tool available within Pharo...in my case if Pillar shows it's capable enough to replace need for using rst, I'll be enthusiastic to embrace it. Otoh, considering that I'm just starting/learning Pharo, it's obvious I'm accustomed to use *many* other tools which do the job. So, being able to use *single* markup for all my writing is clearly advantageous since it spares me from 'changing gears' in a similar way that the upcoming feature in Fossil DVCS will allow one to sync with Git(hub) repositories - no more need to fiddle with Git and focusing solely to Fossil. The end result as Richard (Hipp) wrote and, I believe, what I heard from Stef on one of his presentations is that less brain cpu cells/cycles are burnt which is always good. :-) > I think adding footnotes to Pillar is a great idea. I am not ready to > doÂ > so. I am not a qualified Pillar user yet. But when I am, I would notÂ > hesitate to add it to Pillar and improve the tool of the environment > IÂ > prefer to use. I am neither Pillar nor Pharo-qualified user, but share the same sentiments in regard. ;) Sincerely, Gour --Â Therefore, without being attached to the fruits of activities,Â one should act as a matter of duty, for by working withoutÂ attachment one attains the Supreme.

Dec. 28, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] what is Pharo's mission statement? (was Re: Transcendental #new (was Re: why Pillar))

by Robert Withers

On 12/28/2015 01:42 PM, Marcus Denker wrote: >> On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:33, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 12/28/2015 01:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>>> On 28 Dec 2015, at 19:11, Robert Withers <robert.w.withers(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I got you, stephano. I do not wish to be banned. >>>> >>>> Leaving aside established spiritual traditions, but picking out the pattern for exploration, what would you say the meta-meme of Pharo is? In other words, what is the mission statement? This would help me grasp the motivations of the community and is not a meaningless exercise for the community, from a leadership development perspective.. >>> http://pharo.org/about. >>> https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf >> This is awesome, thank you for posting it. It mentions a roadmap. Is there such a page? > We are working on an updated roadmap. Thanks for setting the right expectations, please enjoy the holidays. I will enjoy it when it is properly aged. > We will update it to form a roadmap soonâ¦ (I wanted to have it done already, but was busy > with other things end of the yearâ¦) I understand and the results of your efforts are plain to see. Pharo-5 runs my work well. I have been reading your section 4 in the Vision document with great interest. Particularly, I find I like 4.2, 4.3, 4.5, 4.6, 4.7, 4.8, 4.11 and 4.12. I would like to try my work on top of ocean. robert > > Marcus -- Robert . .. ... ^,^

Dec. 28, 2015