January 2015 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

kilon.alios wrote > Porting code to JVM and Javascript has 3 issues > > a) you are no longer able to use the libraries of your popular > implementation (see Pharo) unless you wrap those libraries with something > like JNA (a ffi for JAVA) > b) most people would not use JVM unless if they have to and in most cases > it will be more likely their code will be written in JAVA so they use JAVA > c) JVM and Javascript languages are notorious for being slow , so once > again fall back to JAVA and Javascript Indeed, many organizations have to use JVM, and yes, they probably fall back on Java because that's the "safe" choice. It doesn't mean that we can't persuade them to try Smalltalk. Redline makes it easier to interoperate with the existing Java infrastructure. If we can't convince these organizations that they'll be much more productive using Smalltalk over Java, and save tons of money /in the long run/, then how can we ever advance our agenda to the rest of the world?? BTW, JVM and JS aren't /that/ slow any more. They're so well-optimized that, for most use cases, performance is no longer an issue. I know because my brother Robert used to work at IBM (he just quit yesterday!). > So those language ported to JVM act mainly as scripting languages, you got > a JAVA app which is probably quite big and you port small parts of it to > that other language to make your code more managable and less verbose. So Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are used mainly as scripting languages? That's not what I hear. > So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or > Javascript. The problem with smalltalk that other languages dont have is > that it comes with an IDE , which is both a blessing and a curse. The last > time I checked Pharo was 200k lines of codes, that is huge for a dynamic > language. If we take out the IDE we lose a big advantage as developers, > add > to that the fact that other IDEs have very limited supported for Smalltalk > and you end up as a not so cool situation especially if you are used to > code in Pharo. This is something I have against with Amber. I don't expect Smalltalk to become a big hit on the JVM or JS, either. But if it proves to be as popular as Scala, I'd be very satisfied! Making Smalltalk available to other domains is not simply a matter of checking off boxes. Strategically, it shows Smalltalk's versatility and that it's not just a one-trick pony. Limiting ourselves to just desktop (or Seaside) applications is rather short-sighted. > So the ideal scenario is for someone to do what Rtalk promised but that > would requires someone or some coder with very deep knowledge of the JVM, > So dont hold your breath. I won't, which is precisely why I support James Ladd's efforts. > My choice is sticking with Pharo, sure Javascript and Java are nice sirens > singing an irresistible song but I am not willing to give up the comforts > of Pharo just so I have access to Java and Javascript libraries. Tempting > but not that tempting. Pharo is an excellent choice if you are a lone > coder and you want to be very productive which if you think of it is > completely diffirent to what the JVM aims for which is big coder groups > and > big companies. I certainly don't want to limit Smalltalk to just lone developers and small software houses. That's the very definition of "niche." > On the other hand if there is a real need for Smalltalk on JVM then sooner > or later someone will step up and start something. Right now from what I > see Clojure and Scala are the only two langauge that get some attention , > again nowhere near as much as other popular languages but they still > somewhat popular. The thing with Clojure is that is not just lisp on JVM , > there was already lisp for JVM called ABCL and never got popular, Clojure > became popular not because its lisp but because it targeted concurrency > and > made it easier . If Smalltalk is to become ever as popular it has to bring > something similar to the table and I think concurency would not be a bad > idea either especially for those that are not big fans of lisp syntax and > prefer something like Smalltalk. As I intimated previously in my list of essay topics for the Smalltalk community, I believe it's important for us to address concurrency in Smalltalk. Yes, it would not only be a good idea, it would be /essential/. I think there's a real need for Smalltalk on JVM, and Mr. Ladd has indeed stepped up. The real question is, who among you will help him? Generalissimo -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800179.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by kilon alios

There was a promise long time ago that RTalk will be released soon enough and never happened. The difference with RTalk is not that is just smalltalk language on JVM , which frankly I dont care that much, but also the entire IDE, basically they replaced the Smalltalk bytecode with JVM bytecode and the rest is just smalltalk probably with the exception of few parts here and there. Porting code to JVM and Javascript has 3 issues a) you are no longer able to use the libraries of your popular implementation (see Pharo) unless you wrap those libraries with something like JNA (a ffi for JAVA) b) most people would not use JVM unless if they have to and in most cases it will be more likely their code will be written in JAVA so they use JAVA c) JVM and Javascript languages are notorious for being slow , so once again fall back to JAVA and Javascript So those language ported to JVM act mainly as scripting languages, you got a JAVA app which is probably quite big and you port small parts of it to that other language to make your code more managable and less verbose. Python started similarly as a scripting language for C and then C++ , again for similar reasons. As a language grow in popular the more it got its own libraries ,, even though even back then it allowed for easy access to C/C++ libraries. So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or Javascript. The problem with smalltalk that other languages dont have is that it comes with an IDE , which is both a blessing and a curse. The last time I checked Pharo was 200k lines of codes, that is huge for a dynamic language. If we take out the IDE we lose a big advantage as developers, add to that the fact that other IDEs have very limited supported for Smalltalk and you end up as a not so cool situation especially if you are used to code in Pharo. This is something I have against with Amber. So the ideal scenario is for someone to do what Rtalk promised but that would requires someone or some coder with very deep knowledge of the JVM, So dont hold your breath. My choice is sticking with Pharo, sure Javascript and Java are nice sirens singing an irresistible song but I am not willing to give up the comforts of Pharo just so I have access to Java and Javascript libraries. Tempting but not that tempting. Pharo is an excellent choice if you are a lone coder and you want to be very productive which if you think of it is completely diffirent to what the JVM aims for which is big coder groups and big companies. On the other hand if there is a real need for Smalltalk on JVM then sooner or later someone will step up and start something. Right now from what I see Clojure and Scala are the only two langauge that get some attention , again nowhere near as much as other popular languages but they still somewhat popular. The thing with Clojure is that is not just lisp on JVM , there was already lisp for JVM called ABCL and never got popular, Clojure became popular not because its lisp but because it targeted concurrency and made it easier . If Smalltalk is to become ever as popular it has to bring something similar to the table and I think concurency would not be a bad idea either especially for those that are not big fans of lisp syntax and prefer something like Smalltalk. On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 6:37 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I had never heard of RTalk or Gravel. In all my Googling, I've never come > across these two. They're obviously not on the minds of very many people. > Are they even active projects? > > At least Redline is relatively prominent. At least James Ladd is actively > working on it. His efforts should be commended and *supported*. > > Let's rally around the Redline project. This should be doable. > > Generalissimo > > > Stephan Eggermont wrote > > continued from pharo-dev, please keep discussion here. > > > > The smalltalk on jvm situation is exactly like it shouldn't be. > > There are three implementations, not working together: > > - RTalk > > - Gravel > > - Redline > > > > The first two are driven by existing commercial smalltalk users > > coming from a platform that they feel is not sufficiently > > developing (different ones). This amount of fragmentation is ridiculous. > > Of course they have different priorities and needs, but it should be > > possible to share the work that all three feel they have to do. > > The result is that at least two of them move forward very slowly. > > > > Stephan > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800173.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Esteban A. Maringolo

If Redline is ready and good to build native (Java) Android apps with it, I'll be one of the first ones to try it. So I look forward to Redline 1.0 :) Esteban A. Maringolo 2015-01-17 13:46 GMT-03:00 horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com>: > I agree that Amber is important, given that client-side web development is > the /fad du jour/. But having a Smalltalk on the JVM is also important if we > want to penetrate the enterprise. JVM is the closest thing we have to a > "standard" enterprise platform. > > Languages such as Scala and Groovy have had some measure of success on the > JVM. I'd be happy if Smalltalk could achieve even this level of popularity! > > Generalissimo > > > Esteban A. Maringolo wrote >> El ene 15, 2015 8:55 AM, "Sebastian Sastre" < > >> sebastian@ > >> > >> escribiÃ³: >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo < > >> emaringolo@ > >> > >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also >> get you bitten. :) >>> >>> >>> And whatâs the news on that? >>> >>> The world is full of people paralysed by fear. >>> >>> Scared people is not worth following (they are not going to invent any >> interesting future). >>> >>> The ones who dear to do different are way more interesting. >>> >> >> I totally agree with you. But the mentioned project was a viable option >> two >> years ago, when it was trying to get developer traction and the "runs on >> JVM" was a hyped feature (not to mention the bad experience almost >> everyone >> had with such things). >> >> Amber is, IMO, way more valuable and with a greater feature than Redline. >> And I never used any of them. >> >> I wouldn't do a PR campaign mentioning VW's Pollock UI, Pharo's Spec or >> any >> other abandoned project whatsoever. >> >> A different thing is a project of which you can expect to move at a slow >> pace, but uninterruptedly. >> >> Regards, > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-dev-InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799686… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

I agree that Amber is important, given that client-side web development is the /fad du jour/. But having a Smalltalk on the JVM is also important if we want to penetrate the enterprise. JVM is the closest thing we have to a "standard" enterprise platform. Languages such as Scala and Groovy have had some measure of success on the JVM. I'd be happy if Smalltalk could achieve even this level of popularity! Generalissimo Esteban A. Maringolo wrote > El ene 15, 2015 8:55 AM, "Sebastian Sastre" < > sebastian@ > > > escribiÃ³: >> >> >>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo < > emaringolo@ > > > wrote: >>> >>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also > get you bitten. :) >> >> >> And whatâs the news on that? >> >> The world is full of people paralysed by fear. >> >> Scared people is not worth following (they are not going to invent any > interesting future). >> >> The ones who dear to do different are way more interesting. >> > > I totally agree with you. But the mentioned project was a viable option > two > years ago, when it was trying to get developer traction and the "runs on > JVM" was a hyped feature (not to mention the bad experience almost > everyone > had with such things). > > Amber is, IMO, way more valuable and with a greater feature than Redline. > And I never used any of them. > > I wouldn't do a PR campaign mentioning VW's Pollock UI, Pharo's Spec or > any > other abandoned project whatsoever. > > A different thing is a project of which you can expect to move at a slow > pace, but uninterruptedly. > > Regards, -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-dev-InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799686… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

I had never heard of RTalk or Gravel. In all my Googling, I've never come across these two. They're obviously not on the minds of very many people. Are they even active projects? At least Redline is relatively prominent. At least James Ladd is actively working on it. His efforts should be commended and *supported*. Let's rally around the Redline project. This should be doable. Generalissimo Stephan Eggermont wrote > continued from pharo-dev, please keep discussion here. > > The smalltalk on jvm situation is exactly like it shouldn't be. > There are three implementations, not working together: > - RTalk > - Gravel > - Redline > > The first two are driven by existing commercial smalltalk users > coming from a platform that they feel is not sufficiently > developing (different ones). This amount of fragmentation is ridiculous. > Of course they have different priorities and needs, but it should be > possible to share the work that all three feel they have to do. > The result is that at least two of them move forward very slowly. > > Stephan -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800173.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015

InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-sm… <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-sm…> Amber and Redline are vital *strategic* projects for Smalltalk. One is for the browser and one is for the JVM. Amber and Redline are *nascent* projects. Hopefully, they will be ready to greet newcomers in the latter half of this year. People are working hard, so please be patient. The Redline project needs contributors. I urge people to step up. It would be tragic if this project failed. /We need a Smalltalk on the JVM!/ 2015 will the Year of Smalltalk. Generalissimo -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4800172.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015

Blitzkrieg!

by horrido

http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/ <http://horridohobbies.tumblr.com/> *Today is the one-month anniversary of the SRP.* We have made good progress, but there is still much work ahead of us. Shortly, I will be seeking corporate sponsorship. As well, I'm trying to coordinate activities with the Smalltalk Foundation. Later this summer, I will be pushing my "Small Minds Initiative," a sub-campaign of the SRP to get Smalltalk into the classroom. I will begin with the Toronto District School Board. Are we pumped yet?! Generalissimo -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Blitzkrieg-tp4800165.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Manners on the list?

by Ben Coman

My favourite reference is Eric S Raymond's "How To Ask Smart Questions". http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. Now actually its a friendlier community here that the ones referred to in that reference, but it provides some good philosophies to adhere to. Reporting back success as well a failure is really good practice, since it is gratifying to know it was worth the time to provide advice, and also the next person wanting to do same thing will find this in their web search. Where the histories start getting long, trim them to just the parts you are referring to. I vary whether I respond to separate posts or as a single post. Using separate posts you should trim history more. "Perhaps" I use separate posts in the middle of discussion and a single compiled post as a final summary - but really there is a lot of latitude here. and btw, I think you're ahead of the game asking as you did. cheers -ben On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 3:10 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > When you have a technical questions or request for information just do > not think. > - look on google > - if not found ask > > Report problems with precision without thinking too much. Feedback is > always important. > > Then if you know the answer to a question (of somebody else) or found it > (because this is a challenge to answer questions and a really good way to > learn) do not hesitate to post > > Stef > > Le 17/1/15 00:48, Laura Risani a Ã©crit : > > Hi all, > > I really appreciate the dedication and effort someone generously put > into answering a question. i want neither to waste such a lovely people's > time by saying irrelevant things nor to sound harsh or dry to them. > > It doesn't kind of feel right saying nothing when someone gives me a > rather lengthly answer, unless it was the tacit agreement. > > So i'm facing questions whether or not to make a post, because i'm not > sure which are the right/usual manners for this particular mail-list form > of communication. > > My questions boils down to : how/when to provide feedback? > If for example i ask a question and receive answers from three people. > Should i always answer back > ...commenting whether if it worked or not? > ...only if it didn't solve my problem or if i had something useful for > solving it to add? (like Stack Overflow) > Should i answer back in a separate post to each of them or in a single > post to all? > Are one-line smalltalk comments alright here or should i avoid them? > > Any other advice on manners is also welcome. A written manifest would be > nice :) > Best, > Laura > > > > > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Seaside and JQuery/JQueryUI

by stepharo

http://book.seaside.st/book/web-20/jquery ?? Le 16/1/15 20:18, sergio_101 a Ã©crit : > > at one point, there was a section of seaside that demonstrated using > jquery and jqueryui with seaside.. along with code examples. that was > SUPER helpful. > > I can't seem to find that anywhere. does anyone know if it's still > part of seaside? > > thanks!

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by stepharo

Le 15/1/15 13:39, Johan Fabry a Ã©crit : > I donât know the entire context of the discussion (iâm not following > Pharo-dev, where this came from apparently.) But I would like to point > out that it is wrong to think of Spec as an abandoned project! Spec is > here to stay, and hopefully for a very long time. > >> On Jan 15, 2015, at 09:08, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:emaringolo@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> I wouldn't do a PR campaign mentioning VW's Pollock UI, Pharo's Spec >> or any other abandoned project whatsoever. +1. Especially since we are in the period of the year where I'm much more important at planning budget and resources than anything else :)

Jan. 17, 2015