August 2014 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Problems Pharo 3.0 & Windows 8.1 (64 Bit)

by volkert＠nivoba.de

@Esteban, Phil & Sven: The bad thing is, that it does not happen all the time, so a better description of is not possible. I will try to figure out under which conditions this behavior occurs and hope to give you a better description. If someone found a strange behavior similar to mine, he/she should give me a note. BW, Volkert Am 26.08.2014 um 14:37 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe: > My children have a Windows 8.1 (64-bit) machine, last time I checked Pharo ran fine (actually this video was done in VirtualBox) : > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKokxrQtrg0 > > I could check again tonight, but I suspect it will just work. > > On 25 Aug 2014, at 17:34, volkert(a)nivoba.de wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> i have problems with Pharo 3.0 under Win 8.1 (64 Bit). When i quit Pharo and then restarting >> the it, Pharo-VM and Windows hangs. After some time (2-3 Minutes), the >> Pharo VM File Dialog opens. From time to time the Windows Desktop (!) crashes and restarts. >> >> No Problems under Windows 7. >> >> Looks like a Problem with the VM. >> >> Has someone else seen this behavior under Win 8.1? >> >> BW, >> Volkert >> >> -- >> www.nivoba.de >> >> "The more complex an object, the larger the investment in learning to use it, and the greater the resistance to abandon it.", NW >> >> > -- www.nivoba.de "The more complex an object, the larger the investment in learning to use it, and the greater the resistance to abandon it.", NW

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Can Pharo meet all your computing needs?

by Trygve Reenskaug

Hi, Many thanks for your ref [1]. I have skimmed it and find it both well written and interesting. I must read it more carefully as necessary background when I am embarking on the 'new Dynabook' (BOOK) project. My target audience is professionals using computers as an essential part of their work. (E.g., computational chemists). More precisely, the curious and creative subset. The distance to children is in topic only as far as I can see. I'm afraid the other references in English will have to be put on the back burner... Again, my sincere thanks for this essential reference --Trygve On 26.08.2014 03:08, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas wrote: > Hi Wilfred and welcome, > > I have been lurking at the Smalltalk/Squeak community like from ten > years when I used Etoys, Bots Inc and Scratch to teach newbies an > introductory course on "informatics" (which has a part related with > programming) and after a while I got here at the Pharo community, > where I lurked here for a while but now, because of my PhD research, > which is related with mutual modification between communities and > digital artifacts, I try to explore Pharo as a medium for exploring > some ideas about that and I think it can't be done without a first > hands on experience on the environment and the actual code writing, so > I'm trying to become a more active participant, but I'm still a > newbie. Anyway, from newbie to newbie, welcome again. > > About the dynabook and its vision I would recommend "Tracing the > Dynabook: A Study of Technocultural Transformations" by John W Maxwell > at [1]. In fact, on this book Maxwell claims that Smalltalk didn't > loose (in popularity and defining the common computer experience) > against another programming languages, it lost against the Operative > System paradigm, and its idea of having different small tools > connected mainly by pipes and files, mainly non-interactive, mainly > binary and without any unifying conceptual framework beyond files and > pipes. I think he's right. > > [1] http://tkbr.ccsp.sfu.ca/dynabook/ > > > Besides SqueakNOS you can see some ideas inspired in Smalltak and the > Dynabook vision in the EtoileOS[2]. The authors are not trying to > repeat the OS paradigm, but trying to rethink it from a Smalltalk > perspective, with practical considerations about bridging what we have > now in C [3] and the apps world [4] with what can be done/thought from > a Dynabook inspired vision. > > [2] http://etoileos.com/ > [3] http://etoileos.com/news/archive/2012/08/19/1308/ > [4] http://etoileos.com/news/archive/2012/04/30/1825/ > > Regarding myself and my own approach to make this ideas viable in my > current context, specifically on what is concerned with creation of > rich documentation and something like a modest "Dynabooklet", I'm > trying to get the writing experience of Leo[5], which is an outliner > that has the property of making it's own tree structure available to > make it scriptable in Python (any node of the tree can contain python > code which can traverse and process the tree in particular ways) to > something similar in Smalltalk, with the advantage of an integrated > and explorable inmersive dynamic environment. My idea is to make and > environment where I can write my own PhD thesis[7] (at this moment I'm > writing it with Leo + LaTeX with advances like this [8]), but also to > teach some Data Narratives[9] and Indie Web[10][11]. I'm trying to > combine Python and Smalltalk in modest ways or at least to create some > cross-pollination of ideas. > > [5] http://leoeditor.com/ > [6] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Offray/Ubakye/ > [7] > http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/la-forma-en-que-escribo-… > [8] > http://mutabit.com/deltas/repos.fossil/doctorado-offray/doc/tip/Tesis/Exame… > [9] > http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/borrachos-bochinche-futb… > [10] > http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/indie-science-indie-web-… > [11] http://indiewebcamp.com/ > > > So, I think Pharo can bootstrap the dynabook vision of and environment > for your computer needs and make it viable in different ways, even for > a single person or a small community if this is connected with the > rest of the environment and experiences on what we have now. My > examples are just humble approaches on my attempts to do that, but I > hope that this can show you a lot of interesting stuff that can be > done as a novice or as an expert with the help of the community and > the persons here. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 08/25/2014 06:33 PM, Wilfred Hughes wrote: >> Sounds like the Dynabook goal rather overlaps with that of Lisp >> Machines. The >> idea of a single system that allows you to modify any part at >> runtime, inspect >> any part, or drop into a debugger anywhere is extremely powerful and >> wonderful >> to work with. >> >> Emacs gets quite close to this, but... it's Emacs lisp. I've used worse >> languages, but elisp was not intended to be a general purpose >> application >> programming language. Smalltalk is, which is why Pharo excites me. >> >> Once you start 'living' in a single environment, you customise it to >> meet your >> needs and can contribute the reusable parts to the wider community. This >> produces a virtuous circle of the tools getting better. A package >> manager that >> makes it easy to distribute your work is crucial in this. >> >> Sounds like the first step for me is to start using the Pharo file >> browser and >> command shell and to see how it fits my workflow :) >> >> >> On 25 August 2014 15:15, S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> " The Dynabook SW architecture must be open so that owners can >> safely >> install functionality ('apps') that is available in a >> marketplace. (The >> i-pad with its hardware and its marketplace for apps is at the >> back of my >> mind.)" >> >> >> Can the intent be expanded a bit more. Is this an intent to have >> a Pharo / >> ST / Dynabook based marketplace or more extensive ? >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Trygve Reenskaug >> <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no >> <mailto:trygver@ifi.uio.no>> wrote: >> >> I don't think the current Smalltalk architecture can meet >> all your >> computing needs because security isn't part of its core and >> because it >> is inconceivable that all the necessary programs can be >> developed within >> its boundaries. >> >> Like several people I met at ESUG, my goal is the Dynabook >> and the >> Dynabook shall, by definition, meet all your needs. A >> Dynabook must be >> safe so that its owner is protected from hackers and other >> evildoers. >> The Dynabook SW architecture must be open so that owners can >> safely >> install functionality ('apps') that is available in a >> marketplace. (The >> i-pad with its hardware and its marketplace for apps is at >> the back of >> my mind.) >> >> I can only see one path from here to there. Start from e.g., >> Pharo and >> simplify it to create a Dynabook architecture with owner >> programming and >> with opening for safely adding functionality safely ad lib. >> (I suppose >> this is an ST based OS?) >> >> Any takers? >> --Trygve >> >> >> >> On 23.08.2014 17:04, Wilfred Hughes wrote: >>> Hi folks >>> >>> I've been playing with Pharo recently, and really enjoying >>> writing >>> some programs in the Pharo environment. >>> >>> As a result, I've been wondering if I can use Pharo the way >>> I would >>> use Emacs, as an environment for doing everything. >>> >>> For example, can I use Pharo to: >>> >>> * Send emails to this mailing list? >>> * Use IRC? >>> * Start Bash? >>> * Read the Pharo documentation (e.g. Pharo By Example)? >>> >>> If these things do exist, how do I discover them? Is there a >>> package >>> manager I can use to find new tools I can use in Pharo? >> >> >> > > > > -- Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info Norway Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Can Pharo meet all your computing needs?

by Trygve Reenskaug

Hi Wilfred, Smalltalk builds on Simula, Lisp, ++ So yes, there is a strong similarity with Lisp but I hope we can make the programs more readable. Do you mean to use the command shell for running remote objects ('apps')? Well worth trying. A next step could be to run them from DCI role methods. --Trygve On 26.08.2014 01:33, Wilfred Hughes wrote: > Sounds like the Dynabook goal rather overlaps with that of Lisp > Machines. The idea of a single system that allows you to modify any > part at runtime, inspect any part, or drop into a debugger anywhere is > extremely powerful and wonderful to work with. > > Emacs gets quite close to this, but... it's Emacs lisp. I've used > worse languages, but elisp was not intended to be a general purpose > application programming language. Smalltalk is, which is why Pharo > excites me. > > Once you start 'living' in a single environment, you customise it to > meet your needs and can contribute the reusable parts to the wider > community. This produces a virtuous circle of the tools getting > better. A package manager that makes it easy to distribute your work > is crucial in this. > > Sounds like the first step for me is to start using the Pharo file > browser and command shell and to see how it fits my workflow :)

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problems Pharo 3.0 & Windows 8.1 (64 Bit)

by phil＠highoctane.be

Windows 8.1 here and zero problems. Now, I am using zeroconf, but that shouldn't be an issue. Phil â

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Can Pharo meet all your computing needs?

by Trygve Reenskaug

Yes, yes, yes. BTW: Readable code is the goal of DCI. On 26.08.2014 14:26, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >> Open source means nothing if you cannot read the code, do not understand >> it, cannot change it - easily. > Yes!!! This is why just open sourcing a bad idea like an OS (see GNU/Linux) > doesn't cut it. Even though theoretically you have access to the whole > system, you can judge the practicality of doing so by looking at how few > people actually do so. Compare that with Smalltalk, where it seems a rarity > to find someone who /doesn't/ take advantage of modifying the core (granted > Smalltalkers are somewhat self-selected). The system must be distilled down > and unified until it is easily understandable and changeable by a single > person. We'll know we're there when we have the equivalent functionality of > "an OS + Standard Suite of Common Applications" in which it is commonplace > for users to dig down and modify any level. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-Pharo-meet-all-your-computing-needs-tp4774250p477… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > -- Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info Norway Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Can Pharo meet all your computing needs?

by kilon alios

Personally I think the direction Moose is going is the right one, with visualising code for understanding its overall structure. I do think however that a system can help a user understand is an AI system, not in the strict sense of the word but a system that can understand user needs and act accordingly. Something like the Star Trek computer, where you can talk to a computer and reply back. Coding was great so far but it has become too complicated for mere humans to manage. So I think if Pharo is the future then we need to focus more and invest more on intelligent software, not software that is build in intelligent way but rather a software that can evolve and react to user's needs. This wont be easy or a short term goal. On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > > Open source means nothing if you cannot read the code, do not understand > > it, cannot change it - easily. > > Yes!!! This is why just open sourcing a bad idea like an OS (see GNU/Linux) > doesn't cut it. Even though theoretically you have access to the whole > system, you can judge the practicality of doing so by looking at how few > people actually do so. Compare that with Smalltalk, where it seems a rarity > to find someone who /doesn't/ take advantage of modifying the core (granted > Smalltalkers are somewhat self-selected). The system must be distilled down > and unified until it is easily understandable and changeable by a single > person. We'll know we're there when we have the equivalent functionality of > "an OS + Standard Suite of Common Applications" in which it is commonplace > for users to dig down and modify any level. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Can-Pharo-meet-all-your-computing-needs-tp4774250p477… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problems Pharo 3.0 & Windows 8.1 (64 Bit)

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

My children have a Windows 8.1 (64-bit) machine, last time I checked Pharo ran fine (actually this video was done in VirtualBox) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKokxrQtrg0 I could check again tonight, but I suspect it will just work. On 25 Aug 2014, at 17:34, volkert(a)nivoba.de wrote: > Dear all, > > i have problems with Pharo 3.0 under Win 8.1 (64 Bit). When i quit Pharo and then restarting > the it, Pharo-VM and Windows hangs. After some time (2-3 Minutes), the > Pharo VM File Dialog opens. From time to time the Windows Desktop (!) crashes and restarts. > > No Problems under Windows 7. > > Looks like a Problem with the VM. > > Has someone else seen this behavior under Win 8.1? > > BW, > Volkert > > -- > www.nivoba.de > > "The more complex an object, the larger the investment in learning to use it, and the greater the resistance to abandon it.", NW > >

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problems Pharo 3.0 & Windows 8.1 (64 Bit)

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, Iâm sorry, I never tested pharo on windows 8.1. and the only thing I can promise is that I will create a parallels image next weeks (a couple of them), with 8.1 to test itâ¦ Esteban On 25 Aug 2014, at 17:34, volkert(a)nivoba.de wrote: > Dear all, > > i have problems with Pharo 3.0 under Win 8.1 (64 Bit). When i quit Pharo and then restarting > the it, Pharo-VM and Windows hangs. After some time (2-3 Minutes), the > Pharo VM File Dialog opens. From time to time the Windows Desktop (!) crashes and restarts. > > No Problems under Windows 7. > > Looks like a Problem with the VM. > > Has someone else seen this behavior under Win 8.1? > > BW, > Volkert > > -- > www.nivoba.de > > "The more complex an object, the larger the investment in learning to use it, and the greater the resistance to abandon it.", NW > >

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Can Pharo meet all your computing needs?

by Sean P. DeNigris

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > Open source means nothing if you cannot read the code, do not understand > it, cannot change it - easily. Yes!!! This is why just open sourcing a bad idea like an OS (see GNU/Linux) doesn't cut it. Even though theoretically you have access to the whole system, you can judge the practicality of doing so by looking at how few people actually do so. Compare that with Smalltalk, where it seems a rarity to find someone who /doesn't/ take advantage of modifying the core (granted Smalltalkers are somewhat self-selected). The system must be distilled down and unified until it is easily understandable and changeable by a single person. We'll know we're there when we have the equivalent functionality of "an OS + Standard Suite of Common Applications" in which it is commonplace for users to dig down and modify any level. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-Pharo-meet-all-your-computing-needs-tp4774250p477… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 26, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Can Pharo meet all your computing needs?

by Sean P. DeNigris

Trygve Reenskaug wrote > Alan Kay once said something like "an operating system is what the > language designers omitted to include in their language". That's a great one! Dan Ingalls put it this way in Design Principles Behind Smalltalk (http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/smalltalk.html) Operating System: An operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language. There shouldn't be one. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Can-Pharo-meet-all-your-computing-needs-tp4774250p477… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 26, 2014