August 2014 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Problems Pharo 3.0 & Windows 8.1 (64 Bit)

by volkert＠nivoba.de

Thanks for all the feedback. Hope to find some time tomorrow ... BW, Volkert Am 27.08.2014 um 07:54 schrieb GÃ¶ran Krampe: > Hi! > > On 08/25/2014 05:34 PM, volkert(a)nivoba.de wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> i have problems with Pharo 3.0 under Win 8.1 (64 Bit). When i quit Pharo >> and then restarting >> the it, Pharo-VM and Windows hangs. After some time (2-3 Minutes), the >> Pharo VM File Dialog opens. From time to time the Windows Desktop (!) >> crashes and restarts. > > Some antivirus active? > > regards, GÃ¶ran > > -- www.nivoba.de "The more complex an object, the larger the investment in learning to use it, and the greater the resistance to abandon it.", NW

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by kilon alios

I assume you mean there will be an inheritance issue if I want the variables to be inherited with a default value by the subclasses, which is a valid concern. Other than that you can have accessors for it as far I know . But yeah in that case of inheritance you need some kind of initialise method. I have not played with class instance variables so no clue about that part. On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 8:38 PM, webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > I've also chosen ifNil route. > However, in that case you either: > - break encapsulation by providing accessors > - have to invoke initializing method in every method that uses class > instance variables or class variables > > 27.08.2014 20:31, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > > > yeah python does not need initialisation for class variables like it > > does for instance variables, but then same applies for instance > > variables, for example you can add instance variables and even instance > > method after the instance is created , pharo does something similar too. > > > > Well OOP is a deep subject and this is an advanced topic that I would > > not want to put in an introductionary chapter. > > > > I had issues with initialise on class side recently where i was told i > > had to initialise the class myself instead I chose to go down the ifNil > > route and initialise my class variables inside other methods. This way > > I avoided the creation of an initialise method, and probably i will > > avoid using it in the future too. From what I see most classes > > (metaclasses) dont use an initialise method either. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 7:33 PM, webwarrior <[hidden email] > > </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4775110&i=0>> wrote: > > > > class-side initialize. > > > > I don't think it can be considered a metaprogramming in Smalltalk. > > > > In Python, yes, messing with metaclass is metaprogramming. But > things > > are a bit different there and metaclasses are very rarely used > > [explicitly]. > > > > 27.08.2014 19:05, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > > > > > ok officially I am confused are we talking about initialise at > the > > > instance side or class side (metaclass) side ? > > > > > > I am a python coder myself but I have not done any > > metaprogramming . > > > > > > If it is a metaprogramming thing then yes it wont go inside my > intro > > > chapter since this is advanced topic and metaprogramming is > already > > > covered by PBE on a separate chapter so that can be added there. > > Since I > > > am not experienced with metaprogramming it would be better if > people > > > experienced with Pharo and metaprogramming would write the > > documentation . > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > View this message in context: Re: Unintuitive behavior of class-side > > initialize > > < > http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750…> > > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive > > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at > > Nabble.com. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > > below: > > > http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… > > > > > To unsubscribe from Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize, click > > here > > < > > NAML > > < > http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instan…> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > View this message in context: Re: Unintuitive behavior of class-side > initialize > <http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750…> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com. >

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by Ben Coman

webwarrior wrote: > As class is just an object in Smalltalk, it would be reasonable to believe > that #initialize message is always sent to class on creation. > > However, that's not true. It is only sent to classes that redefine > #initialize. Also sending super initialize may lead to problems. > > None of these is mentioned in documentation (I assume Pahro By Example is > the official one). It only says that #initialize is sent when class is > loaded into memory. > > I think either this behavior should be made more consistent, or excplicitly > mentioned in the docs. > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > Sometimes when I type "initialize" as a new method and hit <Enter>, it auto adds in "super initialize" as a template. Perhaps on the class side it should auto add a comment saying "Do not call super initialize on the class side" cheers -ben

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by webwarrior

I've also chosen ifNil route. However, in that case you either: - break encapsulation by providing accessors - have to invoke initializing method in every method that uses class instance variables or class variables 27.08.2014 20:31, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > yeah python does not need initialisation for class variables like it > does for instance variables, but then same applies for instance > variables, for example you can add instance variables and even instance > method after the instance is created , pharo does something similar too. > > Well OOP is a deep subject and this is an advanced topic that I would > not want to put in an introductionary chapter. > > I had issues with initialise on class side recently where i was told i > had to initialise the class myself instead I chose to go down the ifNil > route and initialise my class variables inside other methods. This way > I avoided the creation of an initialise method, and probably i will > avoid using it in the future too. From what I see most classes > (metaclasses) dont use an initialise method either. > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 7:33 PM, webwarrior <[hidden email] > </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4775110&i=0>> wrote: > > class-side initialize. > > I don't think it can be considered a metaprogramming in Smalltalk. > > In Python, yes, messing with metaclass is metaprogramming. But things > are a bit different there and metaclasses are very rarely used > [explicitly]. > > 27.08.2014 19:05, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > > > ok officially I am confused are we talking about initialise at the > > instance side or class side (metaclass) side ? > > > > I am a python coder myself but I have not done any > metaprogramming . > > > > If it is a metaprogramming thing then yes it wont go inside my intro > > chapter since this is advanced topic and metaprogramming is already > > covered by PBE on a separate chapter so that can be added there. > Since I > > am not experienced with metaprogramming it would be better if people > > experienced with Pharo and metaprogramming would write the > documentation . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > View this message in context: Re: Unintuitive behavior of class-side > initialize > <http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750…> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at > Nabble.com. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > below: > http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… > > To unsubscribe from Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize, click > here > <http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&no…>. > NAML > <http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instan…> > -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by kilon alios

yeah python does not need initialisation for class variables like it does for instance variables, but then same applies for instance variables, for example you can add instance variables and even instance method after the instance is created , pharo does something similar too. Well OOP is a deep subject and this is an advanced topic that I would not want to put in an introductionary chapter. I had issues with initialise on class side recently where i was told i had to initialise the class myself instead I chose to go down the ifNil route and initialise my class variables inside other methods. This way I avoided the creation of an initialise method, and probably i will avoid using it in the future too. From what I see most classes (metaclasses) dont use an initialise method either. On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 7:33 PM, webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > class-side initialize. > > I don't think it can be considered a metaprogramming in Smalltalk. > > In Python, yes, messing with metaclass is metaprogramming. But things > are a bit different there and metaclasses are very rarely used > [explicitly]. > > 27.08.2014 19:05, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > > > ok officially I am confused are we talking about initialise at the > > instance side or class side (metaclass) side ? > > > > I am a python coder myself but I have not done any metaprogramming . > > > > If it is a metaprogramming thing then yes it wont go inside my intro > > chapter since this is advanced topic and metaprogramming is already > > covered by PBE on a separate chapter so that can be added there. Since I > > am not experienced with metaprogramming it would be better if people > > experienced with Pharo and metaprogramming would write the documentation > . > > > ------------------------------ > View this message in context: Re: Unintuitive behavior of class-side > initialize > <http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750…> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com. >

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problems Pharo 3.0 & Windows 8.1 (64 Bit)

by Alain Rastoul

Le 27/08/2014 03:36, Ben Coman a Ã©crit : > Hi Volkert, > > I don't have Win 8.1 64-bit to test on, but to help reproducibility for > others, could you provide the exact downloads you are using for VM and > Image. > > Do you end up with a PharoDebug.log or crash.dmp file in any Pharo folder? > > cheers -ben > > Volkert, Ben is right, knowing the origin of the binaries could help. If you have no confidential data or code in your Pharo image, you can zip your whole Pharo directory and upload the zip to a free upload service on the web (for example http://dl.free.fr/) and send us the link for download. We could test it with your binaries and also test your image with other binaries. HTH, regards Alain

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by phil＠highoctane.be

Yeah don't do super initialize unless you know why on the class side. That being said class side initialize is pretty cool when loading new packages and setting everything up automagically. Phil Le 27 aoÃ»t 2014 18:33, "webwarrior" <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> a Ã©crit : > class-side initialize. > > I don't think it can be considered a metaprogramming in Smalltalk. > > In Python, yes, messing with metaclass is metaprogramming. But things > are a bit different there and metaclasses are very rarely used > [explicitly]. > > 27.08.2014 19:05, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > > > ok officially I am confused are we talking about initialise at the > > instance side or class side (metaclass) side ? > > > > I am a python coder myself but I have not done any metaprogramming . > > > > If it is a metaprogramming thing then yes it wont go inside my intro > > chapter since this is advanced topic and metaprogramming is already > > covered by PBE on a separate chapter so that can be added there. Since I > > am not experienced with metaprogramming it would be better if people > > experienced with Pharo and metaprogramming would write the documentation > . > > > ------------------------------ > View this message in context: Re: Unintuitive behavior of class-side > initialize > <http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750…> > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com. >

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by webwarrior

class-side initialize. I don't think it can be considered a metaprogramming in Smalltalk. In Python, yes, messing with metaclass is metaprogramming. But things are a bit different there and metaclasses are very rarely used [explicitly]. 27.08.2014 19:05, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > ok officially I am confused are we talking about initialise at the > instance side or class side (metaclass) side ? > > I am a python coder myself but I have not done any metaprogramming . > > If it is a metaprogramming thing then yes it wont go inside my intro > chapter since this is advanced topic and metaprogramming is already > covered by PBE on a separate chapter so that can be added there. Since I > am not experienced with metaprogramming it would be better if people > experienced with Pharo and metaprogramming would write the documentation . -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by kilon alios

ok officially I am confused are we talking about initialise at the instance side or class side (metaclass) side ? I am a python coder myself but I have not done any metaprogramming . If it is a metaprogramming thing then yes it wont go inside my intro chapter since this is advanced topic and metaprogramming is already covered by PBE on a separate chapter so that can be added there. Since I am not experienced with metaprogramming it would be better if people experienced with Pharo and metaprogramming would write the documentation . On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 6:16 PM, webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > This is not something fundamental to OOP, just specific to Pharo or > Smalltalk. > > Take for example Python. It has similar object model (objects, classes, > metaclasses). Every time class is defined (either by class keyword, or > by type() function, or by calling a metaclass), its metaclass' __init__ > method is called. > Usually you don't need to redefine metaclass' __init__ method, because > class attributes are initialized in class definition. But when you do, > it works as expected. > > 27.08.2014 15:50, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > > > I will be adding an "Introduction to Object Orientation" chapter to the > > new updated Pharo By Example online book, so I will add this to the > > chapter. The chapter will target people not familiar with Object > > Orientation and people new to coding. Its not an immediate target but it > > will happen till the end of the year. > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email] > > </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4775051&i=0>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 8:22 AM, webwarrior <[hidden email] > > </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4775051&i=1>> wrote: > > > > As class is just an object in Smalltalk, it would be reasonable > > to believe > > that #initialize message is always sent to class on creation. > > > > However, that's not true. It is only sent to classes that > redefine > > #initialize. Also sending super initialize may lead to problems. > > > > > > Ohhh yes. There is always a time for every Smalltalkers where you > > discover that doing super for class side initialize is not a good > idea. > > Here was my time: > > > http://forum.world.st/super-initialize-is-not-a-good-idea-for-Behaviors-td3… > > > > None of these is mentioned in documentation (I assume Pahro By > > Example is > > the official one). It only says that #initialize is sent when > > class is > > loaded into memory. > > > > I think either this behavior should be made more consistent, or > > excplicitly > > mentioned in the docs. > > > > > > > > +1 to the documentation > > > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > > > http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at > > Nabble.com. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mariano > > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > > below: > > > http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… > > > > To unsubscribe from Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize, click > > here > > < > > NAML > > < > http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instan…> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > View this message in context: Re: Unintuitive behavior of class-side > initialize > <http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750…> > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com. >

Aug. 27, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize

by webwarrior

This is not something fundamental to OOP, just specific to Pharo or Smalltalk. Take for example Python. It has similar object model (objects, classes, metaclasses). Every time class is defined (either by class keyword, or by type() function, or by calling a metaclass), its metaclass' __init__ method is called. Usually you don't need to redefine metaclass' __init__ method, because class attributes are initialized in class definition. But when you do, it works as expected. 27.08.2014 15:50, kilon.alios [via Smalltalk] Ð½Ð°Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð²(Ð»Ð°): > I will be adding an "Introduction to Object Orientation" chapter to the > new updated Pharo By Example online book, so I will add this to the > chapter. The chapter will target people not familiar with Object > Orientation and people new to coding. Its not an immediate target but it > will happen till the end of the year. > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email] > </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4775051&i=0>> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 8:22 AM, webwarrior <[hidden email] > </user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=4775051&i=1>> wrote: > > As class is just an object in Smalltalk, it would be reasonable > to believe > that #initialize message is always sent to class on creation. > > However, that's not true. It is only sent to classes that redefine > #initialize. Also sending super initialize may lead to problems. > > > Ohhh yes. There is always a time for every Smalltalkers where you > discover that doing super for class side initialize is not a good idea. > Here was my time: > http://forum.world.st/super-initialize-is-not-a-good-idea-for-Behaviors-td3… > > None of these is mentioned in documentation (I assume Pahro By > Example is > the official one). It only says that #initialize is sent when > class is > loaded into memory. > > I think either this behavior should be made more consistent, or > excplicitly > mentioned in the docs. > > > > +1 to the documentation > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > below: > http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… > > To unsubscribe from Unintuitive behavior of class-side initialize, click > here > <http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=unsubscribe_by_code&no…>. > NAML > <http://forum.world.st/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=macro_viewer&id=instan…> > -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Unintuitive-behavior-of-class-side-initialize-tp47750… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Aug. 27, 2014