May 2014 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by PBK Research

stepharo I was not setting out to insult anybody, and if you feel insulted by my comments then I apologise. I have had a frustrating couple of days, and I was trying to explain the source of my frustration. In some respects my problems are connected with the rate at which Pharo is changing; I was a bit niggled by Esteban Maringolo's comment about having to aim at a moving target, which I realise was meant light-heartedly, and I sounded off. One sort of frustration is exemplified by your comment that RectangleMorph was removed months ago, yet the version of Magritte3 that I got from the configuration browser last week had a method MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph that called RectangleMorph. That has now been changed to BorderedMorph and it works OK, but it wasted a bit of my time finding out why. This may be the fault of the Magritte developers rather than the Pharo developers, but from the user's viewpoint this distinction is not obvious. I have made progress since I sent my messages earlier today; I can now see how to use Magritte (at an elementary level) to produce editors via Seaside in a web browser or as Pharo windows, which was one of my first objectives. I shall persevere with Pharo, and I shall try to read all the documentation thoroughly before asking questions here. Peter Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of stepharo Sent: 14 May 2014 21:22 To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte On 14/5/14 17:15, PBK Research wrote: > Esteban > > Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly > moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a > filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits > outweigh any disruption. There is one. Now immobility is also death. > I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a > playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love > with the process of development. Pharo is not moving fast. The RectangleMorph has been removed months ago. Now if people do not maintain packages or maintain only what they use: this is not the fault of Pharo. Pharo is not a playground. We have companies deploying real software using Pharo. Now for some companies this is important to have - up to date technologies like vector graphics - clean (you know not always getting dirt in your way when you code) - easy to use version of Pharo and they value that we are moving. We do not move for the sake of it and we would prefer to have a clean and well designed system like dolphin was (which could never run on my machine) but people preferred "better dead than open-source" and they are dead sadly. > > I got involved with Pharo again recently - having looked at it briefly > several years ago - because I had read papers, mainly by Lukas Renggli, > about Magritte and PetitParser, and I thought these were brilliant ideas > that I wanted to explore. But am sure that, if I could get the functions of > Magritte and PetitParser in a stable environment like Dolphin, I would drop > Pharo like a shot. Peter don't you feel that you are insulting us? if it makes you feel better good for you. You can use a Smalltalk running only on windows, that is dead (and of course it was really nice) but the people were against open-source and we believe that we prefer to have an open-source system that everybody can have a look than a close source working on a single OS developed by 1.5 developer. Because there were only two smart guys behind objectarts. Next time you insult Pharo and us I will just plonk your email (if you do not know what plonk means ask google). > > While I am in a moaning mood - I'm not always like this! - could anyone tell > me whether there is a glossary of names for Pharo extensions which will tell > beginners like me what they are for and whether they are worth learning > about. I have come across Cairo, Athens, Zinc, Fuel, Spec, Grease and Shout > - just as names, with no idea what they do and no obvious way of finding > out. I have the answers but frankly you did not give me the will to tell that to you especially when I spent my FREE time and energy to write software and documentation for other people. Now you should learn how to ask questions in an open-source community. Now by insulting people: Cairo (ask google because this is mainstream), Athens (is a API for vector graphics with different back -end like cairo -hints hints), Zinc (HTTP server), Fuel (serializer), Spec (UIbuilder), Grease (Compatibility package) and Shout (Syntax Higlighter as you type). > Is there any place where I can look these things up? They all exist in > the Forum image that I downloaded today, but the system browser contains no > general explanation. If you load the code using a configuration then placing the mouse on the configuration package will if the project got documented show you the description. Now you can find information on - the draft pharo catalog https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoProjectCatalog/ - the draft of the new book https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoForTheEnterprise/ - http://www.deepintopharo.org Stef > > Peter Kenny > > PS I've just seen Stephan's reply while composing this. Thanks - it all gets > a bit clearer. You might take my last paragraph above as my response to your > last paragraph! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of > Esteban A. Maringolo > Sent: 14 May 2014 13:30 > To: Any question about pharo is welcome > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte > > 2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk>: >> Stephan >> Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about > Magritte, >> and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard > this >> as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. > Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. > Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness. > > Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :) > > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > >

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Some code to share - Twitter access

by Arturo Zambrano

I'm in a rush right now, I will separate it from the other code this weekend and publish it as it is. I also hope to get some help to complete and polish it during the next weeks. sorry for my late reply... and thanks for your patience. art On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Paul DeBruicker <pdebruic(a)gmail.com>wrote: > I think I have a use for it. Will you please post it to smalltalkhub or > whereever you prefer? > > > Thanks > > > Paul > > > > Arturo Zambrano wrote > > Hi All, > > I have some code that allows to access Twitter data using its REST API > > and the Streaming API (thanks Sven for helping me in > > It is rudimentary and needs more work, but it is useful for what I'm > > doing > > as a hobby in: http://www.tweetreport.com.ar/ > > > > I would like to share it but it is still mixed with some other code of > my > > Twitter toy (thanks Alex , Pablo and all the Roassal team). > > So, if there is people interested in this code, I will separate and > > publish it. > > > > I just need to know if someone wants it to play, to avoid useless work. > > > > Best regards > > art > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Some-code-to-share-Twitter-access-tp4757068p4758680.h… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by phil＠highoctane.be

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:05 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > On 14/5/14 14:25, PBK Research wrote: > >> Stephan >> >> Thanks for the comment. I understand the point about development and >> things >> not always being in step. But if you look at it from my point of view, I >> am >> an elderly retired statistician who does programming for fun, >> > > you interest me :) > I would love to get a nice statistic library for Pharo and to improve the > SciTalk > math library. > Check DHB. > > I am not an >> expert in development and I am pretty new to Pharo. It all looks a maze of >> new terminology to me - I don't understand the difference between >> Monticello >> and Metacello, for instance. I am sure to an expert your explanation of >> how >> to check the correct version of Magritte3 is quite straightforward, but I >> would never have found my way to that conclusion myself. As I pointed out >> to >> Esteban, I used the configuration browser on 5 May to get the stable >> version >> of Magritte3. If that was already out of date, I am pretty well lost. >> >> Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about >> Magritte, >> and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard >> this >> as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. >> >> Peter Kenny >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf >> Of >> Stephan Eggermont >> Sent: 14 May 2014 12:58 >> To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte >> >> Peter wrote: >> >>> Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has >>> debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a >>> MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it >>> >> falls >> >>> over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls >>> MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of >>> >> the >> >>> non-existent class RectangleMorph. >>> >> Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded. >> If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph >> package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version. >> If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this >> newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is). >> >> If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what >> goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph >> newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So >> ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done) >> >> I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo >>> 3.0 >>> image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class >>> RectangleMorph. I >>> have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was >>> to >>> try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would >>> be >>> better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention. >>> >> Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior >> was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo >> have different ideas of what should be stable and what development >> versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases >> or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the >> stable version >> tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI >> will not >> break. >> >> Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes >> fast. >> Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient >> trust >> to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have >> to >> use >> a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on >> the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve. >> >> My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on >>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more >>> knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. >>> For >>> now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image. >>> >> That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project >> descriptions (at least I should for mine). >> >> Stephan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Receiving Nautilus notice when code is changed

by stepharo

+1 DrGeo is cool Stef On 14/5/14 15:56, Goubier Thierry wrote: > > > Le 14/05/2014 15:38, Hilaire Fernandes a Ã©crit : >> Thanks Thierry. >> This one I really can't discover it. > > Oh you could like I did: spending ages looking at the Browser, > Nautilus and OmniBrowser code ;) > > Keep up the good work with DrGeo: it's really one of the "flagship" > Pharo apps that I talk about when I want to convince non-computer guys > about Pharo. > > Thierry

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by stepharo

On 14/5/14 17:15, PBK Research wrote: > Esteban > > Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly > moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a > filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits > outweigh any disruption. There is one. Now immobility is also death. > I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a > playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love > with the process of development. Pharo is not moving fast. The RectangleMorph has been removed months ago. Now if people do not maintain packages or maintain only what they use: this is not the fault of Pharo. Pharo is not a playground. We have companies deploying real software using Pharo. Now for some companies this is important to have - up to date technologies like vector graphics - clean (you know not always getting dirt in your way when you code) - easy to use version of Pharo and they value that we are moving. We do not move for the sake of it and we would prefer to have a clean and well designed system like dolphin was (which could never run on my machine) but people preferred "better dead than open-source" and they are dead sadly. > > I got involved with Pharo again recently - having looked at it briefly > several years ago - because I had read papers, mainly by Lukas Renggli, > about Magritte and PetitParser, and I thought these were brilliant ideas > that I wanted to explore. But am sure that, if I could get the functions of > Magritte and PetitParser in a stable environment like Dolphin, I would drop > Pharo like a shot. Peter don't you feel that you are insulting us? if it makes you feel better good for you. You can use a Smalltalk running only on windows, that is dead (and of course it was really nice) but the people were against open-source and we believe that we prefer to have an open-source system that everybody can have a look than a close source working on a single OS developed by 1.5 developer. Because there were only two smart guys behind objectarts. Next time you insult Pharo and us I will just plonk your email (if you do not know what plonk means ask google). > > While I am in a moaning mood - I'm not always like this! - could anyone tell > me whether there is a glossary of names for Pharo extensions which will tell > beginners like me what they are for and whether they are worth learning > about. I have come across Cairo, Athens, Zinc, Fuel, Spec, Grease and Shout > - just as names, with no idea what they do and no obvious way of finding > out. I have the answers but frankly you did not give me the will to tell that to you especially when I spent my FREE time and energy to write software and documentation for other people. Now you should learn how to ask questions in an open-source community. Now by insulting people: Cairo (ask google because this is mainstream), Athens (is a API for vector graphics with different back -end like cairo -hints hints), Zinc (HTTP server), Fuel (serializer), Spec (UIbuilder), Grease (Compatibility package) and Shout (Syntax Higlighter as you type). > Is there any place where I can look these things up? They all exist in > the Forum image that I downloaded today, but the system browser contains no > general explanation. If you load the code using a configuration then placing the mouse on the configuration package will if the project got documented show you the description. Now you can find information on - the draft pharo catalog https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoProjectCatalog/ - the draft of the new book https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/job/PharoForTheEnterprise/ - http://www.deepintopharo.org Stef > > Peter Kenny > > PS I've just seen Stephan's reply while composing this. Thanks - it all gets > a bit clearer. You might take my last paragraph above as my response to your > last paragraph! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of > Esteban A. Maringolo > Sent: 14 May 2014 13:30 > To: Any question about pharo is welcome > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte > > 2014-05-14 9:25 GMT-03:00 PBK Research <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk>: >> Stephan >> Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about > Magritte, >> and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard > this >> as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. > Plus, you mention you're coming from Dolphin Smalltalk. > Which is easier than the average, in terms of straightforwardness. > > Pharo has A LOT to offer, once you get used to aim at a moving target :) > > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > >

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by stepharo

On 14/5/14 14:25, PBK Research wrote: > Stephan > > Thanks for the comment. I understand the point about development and things > not always being in step. But if you look at it from my point of view, I am > an elderly retired statistician who does programming for fun, you interest me :) I would love to get a nice statistic library for Pharo and to improve the SciTalk math library. > I am not an > expert in development and I am pretty new to Pharo. It all looks a maze of > new terminology to me - I don't understand the difference between Monticello > and Metacello, for instance. I am sure to an expert your explanation of how > to check the correct version of Magritte3 is quite straightforward, but I > would never have found my way to that conclusion myself. As I pointed out to > Esteban, I used the configuration browser on 5 May to get the stable version > of Magritte3. If that was already out of date, I am pretty well lost. > > Still, I am making progress with my original aim of learning about Magritte, > and there are many helpful people on this group, so you can just regard this > as me blowing off steam after things had not gone completely easily. > > Peter Kenny > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of > Stephan Eggermont > Sent: 14 May 2014 12:58 > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte > > Peter wrote: >> Thanks. I have Magritte-Morph in my image, but I wonder if anyone has >> debugged it. I send asMagritteMorph to a Magritte description and I get a >> MAContainerMorph, which is OK. Try sending openInWorld to this, and it > falls >> over in MADescriptionMorph>>buildMorph, which calls >> MADescriptionMorph>>rectangleMorph, which tries to create an instance of > the >> non-existent class RectangleMorph. > Hmm, that looks like you have an old version of Magritte-Morph loaded. > If you open the Monticello browser, you can select the Magritte-Morph > package and then open its repository to see if there is a newer version. > If you select a newer version and click Changes, you can see if this > newer version is likely to solve your problem (it is). > > If you take a look at the ConfigurationOfMagritte3, you can see what > goes wrong. version32 is the first one referring to a Magritte-Morph > newer than version 70. stable: installs version311 however. So > ConfigurationOfMagritte3 needs a new stable version. (Done) > >> I have tried to trace this back, and it is true that my original Pharo 3.0 >> image, downloaded on 30 Apr 2014, does not have the class RectangleMorph. I >> have looked at older images, and the class exists. Maybe my mistake was to >> try to use the Pharo 3.0 image the day it was announced. Perhaps I would be >> better off using one of the pre-packed images you mention. > Pharo 3 has lots of improvements and clean-ups. RectangleMorph behavior > was folded back into BorderedMorph. The projects running on top of Pharo > have different ideas of what should be stable and what development > versions. The people developing them mostly use development releases > or specific versions. If there are not a lot of non-developing users the > stable version > tends to lag behind. And if the specific problem is not in the tests, CI > will not > break. > > Just before the release, there are lots of fixes and the image changes fast. > Not all projects will be able to synchronize fast, and have sufficient trust > to declare a new version stable. So just after a release, you might have to > use > a lot of development versions, check repositories and ask questions on > the mailing lists. Please do, that is the only way we can improve. > >> My only worry is that there is a list of dozens of contributions on >> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/, and unless you have far more >> knowledge than I have it is impossible to know which might be helpful. For >> now I will follow your hint and use the Forum image. > That's a helpful comment. Thank you. We should improve the project > descriptions (at least I should for mine). > > Stephan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimal browser

by stepharo

It needs to be improved (mainly missing menus actions). check the Ondo package in MCHttpRepository location: 'http://smalltalkhub.com/mc/StephaneDucasse/PetitsBazars/main' user: '' password: '' I did two experiences (I wanted to see if I could build a browser only using announcements but I failed) the other one is working but needs more love. You can write on this project now Stef On 14/5/14 12:35, Robert Shiplett wrote: > I volunteer as a test user for this mini-B and DrGeo ! > > - Windows XP and 7 > - various Linux > > DrGeo rules ! > > > On 14 May 2014 07:26, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > > > Hello, > > With Pahro 1.4, > > Browser newOnClass: Number selector: #+ > > use to open a minimal browser on the selected method (btw, it > is broken now) > > With: > Nautilus newOnClass: Number selector: #+ > > > I get a full browser on the method. Is it possible to have a > minimal > browser with Nautilus? > I need it in DrGeo to let users edit scripts, I don't want > them to be > confused by a full browser. > > I did a small browser called ondoBrowser we could work together to > make it simple > for your users. > > Basically I have two columns > > Classes | methods > ---------------- > text method > > > Stef > >

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by Stephan Eggermont

Peter wrote >Well, I am carrying on, but I do wonder why Pharo has to be such a rapidly >moving target. There are virtues in stability, and perhaps there should be a >filtering process before any change is made, to ensure that the benefits >outweigh any disruption. I must admit that, at times, Pharo looks like a >playground for a fairly small group of very clever people who are in love >with the process of development. There is virtue in stability as well as in innovation and in cleaning up. Pharo errs on the side of innovation and radical cleaning up. While doing that, we find out how to get better and faster at change. we do that by breaking things and then fixing them, trying to create as fast a feedback loop as possible. Squeak errs on the side of stability, trying to make things unloadable while keeping up compatibility. To work well with Pharo, as soon as possible set up a ci project in the inria infrastructure. That way you know when something gets broken (and the pharo core developers can see when they break something). A lot of the names are explained in Pharo by Example, Deep into Pharo and pharo for the enterprise https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoForTheEnterprise-english In the Forum image are also parts of Moose (Glamour, Roassal). FOBrowser open FOTutorial open Stephan

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimal browser

by Hilaire Fernandes

Could be yes. Needed action is editing&recompiling code and creating new method in a given class as shown in the screenshot from DrGeo 13.10: even this one is a temporary solution because still too much is exposed to the user as the class/instance button,... Hilaire Le 14/05/2014 16:12, Goubier Thierry a Ã©crit : > Like that? > > This one is a full browser, scoped at the class (i.e. you can see this, > nothing more). > > Not even the class side of the class :( (the surprise of playing with > Refactoring Environments) > > Thierry -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

May 14, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimal browser

by Hilaire Fernandes

Hi Stef, It will be great, now I try to get this list down http://bug.drgeo.eu. In the meantime, I updated the script related methods to use plain Nautilus. Thanks Hilaire Le 14/05/2014 12:26, stepharo a Ã©crit : > I did a small browser called ondoBrowser we could work together to make > it simple > for your users. > > Basically I have two columns > > Classes | methods > ---------------- > text method > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

May 14, 2014