June 2013 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] dissertation statement validation - runtime class definition manipulation

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jun 2, 2013, at 5:48 AM, Bahman Movaqar <Bahman(a)BahmanM.com> wrote: > On 2013-06-02 08:01, btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: >> >> I hope you guys don't mind, but in writing my dissertation and there is >> no one local with Smalltalk experience to double-check some statements >> that I'm making. Over the next few weeks I'd like to bounce a few off >> the list, mainly for a simple "thats not right". For the first.... >> >> "In languages like C++ and Java the class definition is just text in a >> file that is compiled into a runtime, and the class definition _cannot_ >> be defined or changed by that runtime. In Smalltalk you develop from >> inside the runtime image, so the runtime manipulate the class definition >> like any other object of the system." >> >> >> So what I want to check is that is it true to say you can't do that with >> C++ and Java ? > > I don't know about C++ but for Java there are libraries like CGLib[1] or > ASM[2] that can manipulate/generate classes/interfaces at runtime. > However the operation is not even remotely like editing code! It's > writing code to change or generate the bytecode. > > [1] http://cglib.sourceforge.net/ > [2] http://asm.ow2.org/ yes we can that too. Now in Smalltalk modifying first class object representing the system itself is part of the core of the system > > -- > Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) > ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant >

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by Bahman Movaqar

On 2013-06-02 07:26, btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: > Bahman Movaqar wrote: >> On 2013-06-01 10:40, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> >>> Hi guys >>> >>> I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in >>> general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. >>> I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world >>> knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. >>> >>> So what do you think? >>> I would use the association in a much clearer way. >>> >> >> I'd like to mention a few facts: >> 1. I used to think Smalltalk is dead. >> 2. I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in >> universities. >> 3. I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web >> aspects/framework/technologies. >> >> It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a >> try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside. And >> to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be >> moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular). >> >> I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most >> evolving ecosystem for web development. But I was shocked by design, >> quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside. And if you >> ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks. >> >> I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer >> (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated >> developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing. >> >> PS: I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold >> them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-) >> >> > Thanks for your comments Bahman. The opinions and suggestions of > newcomers are hugely important, since that is the market we need to sell > into. While your ideas might not align completely with the direction > Pharo wants to take, by the time your are a Pro-Smalltalk'er you might > forget your perspective today. So it is good to share, and this is the > forum for it. Thanks Ben. DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THE FOLLOWINGS ARE JUST MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. ** Smalltalkhub is a very good idea and it should be further developed and promoted. It's a place (with a slick *modern* looks) where people like me can see that there are lots of people using Smalltalk for serious business. ** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people know about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it and try to promote it on the net. Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the same reason. ** The name "Smalltalk" was a marketing mistake IMHO, just like Squeak (sorry Squeak folks!) I remember I downloaded Squeak 4-5 years back being just curious about Smalltalk. I ran it and the first thing I saw was a mouse as the background of the environment. It may sound stupid but, honestly, that seriously hurt my curiosity. Pharo is much better in terms of looks (I don't know about the internals). These things, though very unimportant or even fun for the existing Smalltalk community, have great effect on newcomers. > What was it that first caught your attention about Seaside? 1. Simplicity ============== I almost knew no Smalltalk, let alone Seaside. Following only the first 6 chapters of Seaside Tutorial[1] and taking a very quick glance at the next 3 chapters I was already coding! This is *not* something one may get in Java world: assuming that one already knows Java *well*, she has to read twice as much as tutorials and still without the help of an IDE to automate all the boilerplate she's completely helpless. 2. Design ========== AFAIK component-oriented design is the hottest trend in the web framework design and Seaside has got very well. In Java world, despite numerous -I mean it- web frameworks, there are only 2-3 ones that have been designed this way, namely GWT, ZK and Wicket. 3. Quality =========== The quality of the design is outstanding. The idea of components calling each other, i.e. `call:', and the notion of tasks makes web development a lot easier. Not that it's not possible to do so in other web frameworks but it's not as easy and straight-forward. And data binding as easy as using `on:of:' is just a breeze from heavens! 4. Cleanness ============= To me Seaside looks like a no nonsense web framework. No XML/boilerplate configuration and just enough of client/server side control over the code makes it one of the *few* good ones. Again, I being able to code after a few chapters of *tutorial* clearly speaks about cleanness. 5. Feature set =============== Component-based architecture, encapsulation of the Script from Hell (Javascript), no setup, halos, that /creepy/ code modification from within the browser, ... Heck, I'm already drooling :-) 6. Light-weight ================ In Java world, unless you're one of those few tough know-it-all gurus, you *cannot* easily develop a web application on a machine with less than 2GB of RAM. Heck my Pharo image running Seaside in development mode and all the windows open inside Pharo has cost me just ~80MB RAM! Unbelievable! [1] http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Debugger question

by Camillo Bruni

Most probably you know that already, but you can load the changes of another image. That might help to ease the migration a bit :/: simply drag and drop a .changes file onto an image and you can replay whatever was in there... On 2013-06-02, at 10:52, "phil(a)highoctane.be" <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > Ok. > > I'll get the latest PharoVM and move from there. > > And recovering lost changes when facing this is just a huge pain. > > Phil > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013, ClÃ©ment Bera wrote: > >> Yeah there was a bug report about stepping on Processor terminateActive. >> >> I tried with the latest Pharo VM and I was able to do Cmd . to interrupt. >> It worked several times, but it might be just a question of luck. >> >> It is not easy to fix. We could as a temporary patch hardcode the step >> over terminateActive ... >> >> >> 2013/6/1 phil(a)highoctane.be <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> 'phil(a)highoctane.be');> <phil(a)highoctane.be <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', >> 'phil(a)highoctane.be');>> >> >>> When using the debugger, I am often getting into the situation shown in >>> the attached picture when stepping. >>> >>> And the image is then frozen. No matter how much Cmd-. I do, no way out >>> it seems. >>> >>> For newcomers, this is really discouraging I think. >>> >>> What can we do to alleviate this? >>> >>> Thx, >>> Phil >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ClÃ©ment BÃ©ra >> Mate Virtual Machine Engineer >> BÃ¢timent B 40, avenue Halley 59650 *Villeneuve d'Ascq* >>

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Debugger question

by phil＠highoctane.be

Ok. I'll get the latest PharoVM and move from there. And recovering lost changes when facing this is just a huge pain. Phil On Sunday, June 2, 2013, ClÃ©ment Bera wrote: > Yeah there was a bug report about stepping on Processor terminateActive. > > I tried with the latest Pharo VM and I was able to do Cmd . to interrupt. > It worked several times, but it might be just a question of luck. > > It is not easy to fix. We could as a temporary patch hardcode the step > over terminateActive ... > > > 2013/6/1 phil(a)highoctane.be <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', > 'phil(a)highoctane.be');> <phil(a)highoctane.be <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', > 'phil(a)highoctane.be');>> > >> When using the debugger, I am often getting into the situation shown in >> the attached picture when stepping. >> >> And the image is then frozen. No matter how much Cmd-. I do, no way out >> it seems. >> >> For newcomers, this is really discouraging I think. >> >> What can we do to alleviate this? >> >> Thx, >> Phil >> > > > > -- > ClÃ©ment BÃ©ra > Mate Virtual Machine Engineer > BÃ¢timent B 40, avenue Halley 59650 *Villeneuve d'Ascq* >

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Debugger question

by ClÃ©ment Bera

Yeah there was a bug report about stepping on Processor terminateActive. I tried with the latest Pharo VM and I was able to do Cmd . to interrupt. It worked several times, but it might be just a question of luck. It is not easy to fix. We could as a temporary patch hardcode the step over terminateActive ... 2013/6/1 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > When using the debugger, I am often getting into the situation shown in > the attached picture when stepping. > > And the image is then frozen. No matter how much Cmd-. I do, no way out it > seems. > > For newcomers, this is really discouraging I think. > > What can we do to alleviate this? > > Thx, > Phil > -- ClÃ©ment BÃ©ra Mate Virtual Machine Engineer BÃ¢timent B 40, avenue Halley 59650 *Villeneuve d'Ascq*

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] dissertation statement validation - runtime class definition manipulation

by Bahman Movaqar

On 2013-06-02 08:01, btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: > > I hope you guys don't mind, but in writing my dissertation and there is > no one local with Smalltalk experience to double-check some statements > that I'm making. Over the next few weeks I'd like to bounce a few off > the list, mainly for a simple "thats not right". For the first.... > > "In languages like C++ and Java the class definition is just text in a > file that is compiled into a runtime, and the class definition _cannot_ > be defined or changed by that runtime. In Smalltalk you develop from > inside the runtime image, so the runtime manipulate the class definition > like any other object of the system." > > > So what I want to check is that is it true to say you can't do that with > C++ and Java ? I don't know about C++ but for Java there are libraries like CGLib[1] or ASM[2] that can manipulate/generate classes/interfaces at runtime. However the operation is not even remotely like editing code! It's writing code to change or generate the bytecode. [1] http://cglib.sourceforge.net/ [2] http://asm.ow2.org/ -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant

June 2, 2013

dissertation statement validation - runtime class definition manipulation

by btc＠openinworld.com

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by btc＠openinworld.com

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 12:28 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > wrote: > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > > > Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > > > >> Hi guys > >> > >> I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that > the quality of our community is in > >> general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using > well the association. > >> I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo > that the world > >> knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. > >> > >> So what do you think? > >> I would use the association in a much clearer way. > > > > I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only > answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when > you like to use the association in a clearer way. > > I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person > "selling" their expertise :) > > > I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that > sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk > or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance > encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to. > > I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo > they can find experts. > > > yes, this point is very very very important I think. +9999 > > Norbert > > > > > > > -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

June 1, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 3:10 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>wrote: > Hi guys > > I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the > quality of our community is in > general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using > well the association. > I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that > the world > knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. > > So what do you think? > I would use the association in a much clearer way. > > Hi Stef. Considering myself a "Pharo Consultant", two things are happening to me. And maybe some other are in the same situation. Maybe we are poor at selling ourself. But it may be (as my case) because we don't need it now :) For example I don't want to advertise myself if I know I won't be able to have free time for the next months. So...maybe the fact that consultants are quite is because they have too much work hehehe. At least myself, if I need more work (if I have free time), I would send an email to the mailing list. On the other hand, we, consultants, should not only think in the near future but also in the long term. So even if may not be able to have free time in the short term, we should marketing us a bit better. So....where should be add ourself and describe a bit our expertise? -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

June 1, 2013