June 2013 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by Bahman Movaqar

On 2013-06-02 17:54, bobn(a)rogers.com wrote: > Bahman, > We, as Smalltalkers, are very good at talking among ourselves, but what > we really need is to get more people to have your experience. I think > your comments have more value than most on this forum. > > At our Toronto Smalltalk User Group meetings we've talked about getting > out to other software groups and showing them Smalltalk. I'd like to > know, from your point of view, what would be an effective presentation. > What should we focus on? What will get people to explore Smalltalk like > you have? Hi Bob, I'd say penetrating a market is a double-threaded parallel process: motivating the developers and attracting the business decision makers (which sadly most of the times are not developers). I believe, as you certainly know, there are different types of developers with different areas of expertise like system programmers, website programmers and so on. So, IMHO, depending on which type is your audience you should use different show cases. But I'm sure for audience with a background like me, a web-based application that does reporting, saves data to PostgreSQL or Oracle (phew!) and runs smoothly would be very interesting. Specially if you could demo the audience how cleanly and easily they can extend it. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Bahman Movaqar <Bahman(a)BahmanM.com> > *To:* Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > *Sent:* Saturday, June 1, 2013 2:34:26 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants > > On 2013-06-01 10:40, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: >> Hi guys >> >> I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that > the quality of our community is in >> general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using > well the association. >> I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo > that the world >> knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. >> >> So what do you think? >> I would use the association in a much clearer way. > > I'd like to mention a few facts: > 1. I used to think Smalltalk is dead. > 2. I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in > universities. > 3. I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web > aspects/framework/technologies. > > It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a > try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside. And > to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be > moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular). > > I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most > evolving ecosystem for web development. But I was shocked by design, > quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside. And if you > ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks. > > I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer > (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated > developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing. > > PS: I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold > them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-) -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by btc＠openinworld.com

btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: > Bahman Movaqar wrote: > > > > ** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language > > like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people know > > about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it > > and try to promote it on the net. > > Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they > > implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in > > Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And > > I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the > > same reason. > > > I have had similar thoughts that many people are first drawn to an application, > and then end up in its development language by default. My thought was based > around a non-critical application like a mind-map tool (similar to Freemind). > Something non-critical makes it easier for the techies to slip it in the back > door without management getting involved. However an open source ERP like > Compiere would be fantastic. The trouble would be attracting a domain expert to > implement it ;) Perhaps one way to go would finding an existing database driven > open source ERP system that doesn't have a web interface, and gradually bolt on > a web interface using Seaside. > I hesitated a bit linking to this video [1] about Compiere moving from a desktop app to a web app, but a few comments made it seem not-too-far-off-topic, and surprisingly might actually make it a good target for a Smalltalk project to get its teeth into. * that say say its a Model Driven Architecture with everything in an "Active Data Dictionary" defining where stuff is rendered, how its rendered - so I wonder if that eases hooking Smalltalk in * the number of times "refactoring" was mentioned - so I wonder if a good student research project would be an IDE for refactoring Java, even to the degree of refactoring Java into Smalltalk * they want to maintain both desktop and web clients - I'm sure there were some recent comments on pharo-dev about abmitions to "deploy-everywhere" eg desktop and web together * they felt going Javascript and AJAX would suffer from losing complete debuggability - I am thinking of the benefits of web client side Amber debugger * they made simple prototype of web interface in 2 weeks - obviously they have the advantage of their own code, but maybe something similar would be reasonably achievable as a demonstrator. * reminded me of the massive amount of work in the world just customizing applications to match customer business processes. eg millions of dollars in the SAP world * Compiere has some good branding in the business world. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3znA_4xptA cheers -ben

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by btc＠openinworld.com

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by bobn＠rogers.com

Bahman, We, as Smalltalkers, are very good at talkingÂ amongÂ ourselves, but what we really need is to get more people to have your experience. I think your comments have more value than most on this forum. At our Toronto Smalltalk User Group meetings we've talked about getting out to other software groups and showing them Smalltalk. I'd like to know, from your point of view, what would be an effective presentation. Â What should we focus on? What will get people to explore Smalltalk like you have? Thanks, Bob Nemec ________________________________ From: Bahman Movaqar <Bahman(a)BahmanM.com> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2013 2:34:26 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants On 2013-06-01 10:40, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in > general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. > I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world > knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. > > So what do you think? > I would use the association in a much clearer way. I'd like to mention a few facts: 1.Â I used to think Smalltalk is dead. 2.Â I used to think Smalltalk, even if not dead, is only being used in universities. 3.Â I used to think Smalltalk world is far behind the modern web aspects/framework/technologies. It's been less than a week that I started to give Smalltalk (Pharo) a try -and to be honest I chose to do so just to see what is Seaside.Â And to my utmost surprise all of the above assumptions turned out to be moronic per-assumptions (though hugely popular). I come from the Java world which I'd say is the richest and most evolving ecosystem for web development.Â But I was shocked by design, quality, simplicity, cleanness and feature-set of Seaside.Â And if you ask me nothing matches it even in the wide range of Java web frameworks. I believe, Seaside is a sample of what Smalltalk world has to offer (correct me if I'm wrong) and it's a real pitty that frustrated developers/companies using Java or .NET don't know about such a thing. PS:Â I have some general suggestions but, honestly, I thought I'd hold them as I'm not a pro Smalltalk'er :-) -- Bahman MovaqarÂ (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] SourceCity is now MIT

by Tudor Girba

Excellent news! Doru On Jun 2, 2013, at 12:22 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi guys > > with the other synectique guys http://www.snectique.eu we decided to open-source SourceCity. > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/SourceCity > > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~ErwanDouaille/SourceCity/ > > MCSmalltalkhubRepository > owner: 'ErwanDouaille' > project: 'SourceCity' > user: '' > password: '' > > Stef -- www.tudorgirba.com "One cannot do more than one can do."

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] [Moose-dev] SourceCity is now MIT

by Serge Stinckwich

Thank you Synectique ! EnvoyÃ© de mon iPhone Le 2 juin 2013 Ã 12:22, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> a Ã©crit : > Hi guys > > with the other synectique guys http://www.snectique.eu we decided to open-source SourceCity. > http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/SourceCity > > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~ErwanDouaille/SourceCity/ > > MCSmalltalkhubRepository > owner: 'ErwanDouaille' > project: 'SourceCity' > user: '' > password: '' > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)iam.unibe.ch > https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev

June 2, 2013

SourceCity is now MIT

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi guys with the other synectique guys http://www.snectique.eu we decided to open-source SourceCity. http://rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/SourceCity http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~ErwanDouaille/SourceCity/ MCSmalltalkhubRepository owner: 'ErwanDouaille' project: 'SourceCity' user: '' password: '' Stef

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Thanks for your feedback. I agree with most of them (to me seasie is lacking a nice library of premade components), now you have also reef (lacks a good oducmentation that encapsulates javascript) and amber for the client side. With Pharo our goal is to make sure that people can make business. We are trying hard and I'm kind of obsessed by that :). So I love to hear that people created new projects, businesses with Pharo. I got some no public information from time to time that indicate that this is happening more and more :). Now we want more success stories. ;D So let us know how we can help you to arrive to the point where you want to get into pharo business. Stef > Thanks Ben. > > DISCLAIMER: ALL OF THE FOLLOWINGS ARE JUST MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. > > ** Smalltalkhub is a very good idea and it should be further developed > and promoted. It's a place (with a slick *modern* looks) where people > like me can see that there are lots of people using Smalltalk for > serious business. > > ** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language > like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people know > about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it > and try to promote it on the net. > Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they > implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in > Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. And > I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the > same reason. > > ** The name "Smalltalk" was a marketing mistake IMHO, just like Squeak > (sorry Squeak folks!) I remember I downloaded Squeak 4-5 years back > being just curious about Smalltalk. I ran it and the first thing I saw > was a mouse as the background of the environment. It may sound stupid > but, honestly, that seriously hurt my curiosity. Pharo is much better > in terms of looks (I don't know about the internals). These things, > though very unimportant or even fun for the existing Smalltalk > community, have great effect on newcomers. > > >> What was it that first caught your attention about Seaside? > > 1. Simplicity > ============== > I almost knew no Smalltalk, let alone Seaside. Following only the first > 6 chapters of Seaside Tutorial[1] and taking a very quick glance at the > next 3 chapters I was already coding! This is *not* something one may > get in Java world: assuming that one already knows Java *well*, she has > to read twice as much as tutorials and still without the help of an IDE > to automate all the boilerplate she's completely helpless. > > 2. Design > ========== > AFAIK component-oriented design is the hottest trend in the web > framework design and Seaside has got very well. In Java world, despite > numerous -I mean it- web frameworks, there are only 2-3 ones that have > been designed this way, namely GWT, ZK and Wicket. > > 3. Quality > =========== > The quality of the design is outstanding. The idea of components > calling each other, i.e. `call:', and the notion of tasks makes web > development a lot easier. Not that it's not possible to do so in other > web frameworks but it's not as easy and straight-forward. > And data binding as easy as using `on:of:' is just a breeze from heavens! > > 4. Cleanness > ============= > To me Seaside looks like a no nonsense web framework. No > XML/boilerplate configuration and just enough of client/server side > control over the code makes it one of the *few* good ones. > Again, I being able to code after a few chapters of *tutorial* clearly > speaks about cleanness. > > 5. Feature set > =============== > Component-based architecture, encapsulation of the Script from Hell > (Javascript), no setup, halos, that /creepy/ code modification from > within the browser, ... Heck, I'm already drooling :-) > > 6. Light-weight > ================ > In Java world, unless you're one of those few tough know-it-all gurus, > you *cannot* easily develop a web application on a machine with less > than 2GB of RAM. Heck my Pharo image running Seaside in development > mode and all the windows open inside Pharo has cost me just ~80MB RAM! > Unbelievable! > > > [1] http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/seaside > > > -- > Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) > ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant >

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jun 1, 2013, at 11:55 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 3:10 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi guys > > I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in > general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. > I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world > knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. > > So what do you think? > I would use the association in a much clearer way. > > > Hi Stef. Considering myself a "Pharo Consultant", two things are happening to me. And maybe some other are in the same situation. > Maybe we are poor at selling ourself. But it may be (as my case) because we don't need it now :) For example I don't want to advertise myself if I know I won't be able to have free time for the next months. So...maybe the fact that consultants are quite is because they have too much work hehehe. At least myself, if I need more work (if I have free time), I would send an email to the mailing list. > > On the other hand, we, consultants, should not only think in the near future but also in the long term. So even if may not be able to have free time in the short term, we should marketing us a bit better. Exactly > > So....where should be add ourself and describe a bit our expertise? I would use the pharo association for that. And if you do it well all the people will follow :) > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Debugger question

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jun 2, 2013, at 10:51 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > Ok. > > I'll get the latest PharoVM and move from there. > > And recovering lost changes when facing this is just a huge pain. we are working on a totally new tool and model for change recovery and publication. Probably ready for the end of the summer. Stef > > Phil > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013, ClÃ©ment Bera wrote: > Yeah there was a bug report about stepping on Processor terminateActive. > > I tried with the latest Pharo VM and I was able to do Cmd . to interrupt. It worked several times, but it might be just a question of luck. > > It is not easy to fix. We could as a temporary patch hardcode the step over terminateActive ... > > > 2013/6/1 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> > When using the debugger, I am often getting into the situation shown in the attached picture when stepping. > > And the image is then frozen. No matter how much Cmd-. I do, no way out it seems. > > For newcomers, this is really discouraging I think. > > What can we do to alleviate this? > > Thx, > Phil > > > > -- > ClÃ©ment BÃ©ra > Mate Virtual Machine Engineer > BÃ¢timent B 40, avenue Halley 59650 Villeneuve d'Ascq

June 2, 2013