June 2013 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by Norbert Hartl

Am 03.06.2013 um 09:47 schrieb phil(a)highoctane.be: > I'd say creating visible success cases w/ real business value is what will drive usage forward. > > Without that, well, that's yet another tech in the pile. > Maybe. But my experience shows that it is more effective than having developers think about marketing or "real business value" (whatever that might be). Sorry, but most of us don't have a glue about it. It is just high hopes (juggling with learned business acronyms) that are hard to achieve and it is the safest way that nothing will happen. Anyway I'm just responding because you are weighing efforts. If there are more things that we can do I'm pretty sure we should do all of them. Norbert > Once business sees that using Pharo has a clear ROI, then, who cares about justifications. > > BTW, interesting programming doesn't occurs in the IT departments where you have to justify everything but in business units where doing something that matters to the bottom line is what counts. (That's why business units do a lot of skunkworks projects in their area... and why we should focus there). > > > Phil > > > On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > > > > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > >> > >> Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > >> > >>> Hi guys > >>> > >>> I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in > >>> general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. > >>> I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world > >>> knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. > >>> > >>> So what do you think? > >>> I would use the association in a much clearer way. > >> > >> I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way. > > > > I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person > > "selling" their expertise :) > > > >> I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to. > > > > I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts. > > Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this. > > Norbert > > > >

June 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Where to get Magritte?

by Damien Cassou

Dear Bahman, On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 1:47 AM, Bahman Movaqar <Bahman(a)bahmanm.com> wrote: > What is the correct/current repository for Magritte? the official repository for Magritte is http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Magritte. Current stable version is Magritte3. Official mailing list is smallwiki(a)iam.unibe.ch (https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/smallwiki) Best -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." Winston Churchill

June 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by phil＠highoctane.be

I'd say creating visible success cases w/ real business value is what will drive usage forward. Without that, well, that's yet another tech in the pile. Once business sees that using Pharo has a clear ROI, then, who cares about justifications. BTW, interesting programming doesn't occurs in the IT departments where you have to justify everything but in business units where doing something that matters to the bottom line is what counts. (That's why business units do a lot of skunkworks projects in their area... and why we should focus there). Phil On Mon, Jun 3, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr > >: > > > > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > >> > >> Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse < > stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > >> > >>> Hi guys > >>> > >>> I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that > the quality of our community is in > >>> general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using > well the association. > >>> I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo > that the world > >>> knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. > >>> > >>> So what do you think? > >>> I would use the association in a much clearer way. > >> > >> I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only > answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when > you like to use the association in a clearer way. > > > > I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented > person > > "selling" their expertise :) > > > >> I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that > sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk > or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance > encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to. > > > > I would like to show to the world that if they start business around > Pharo they can find experts. > > Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people > finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to > implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as > programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a > better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, > too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this. > > Norbert > > > >

June 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by Norbert Hartl

Am 01.06.2013 um 17:28 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > > On Jun 1, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > >> >> Am 01.06.2013 um 08:10 schrieb StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >> >>> Hi guys >>> >>> I think that we are doing a poor job selling ourselves. I think that the quality of our community is in >>> general excellent but we do not sell it. I think that we are not using well the association. >>> I think that this is REALLY important for a larger adoption of Pharo that the world >>> knows that we have excellent guys around that can consult. >>> >>> So what do you think? >>> I would use the association in a much clearer way. >> >> I think you need to elaborate here. On this level of detail the only answer could be: good idea! I cannot see what you have on your mind when you like to use the association in a clearer way. > > I mean that we could use the association as a show room for talented person > "selling" their expertise :) > >> I would like to have consultancy for consultants. I mean I read that sometimes that developers are just too shy to sell services with smalltalk or do not dare to introduce it to their IT. There should be an instance encouraging those people or be just an address to target questions to. > > I would like to show to the world that if they start business around Pharo they can find experts. Agreed. I think that is important, too. I just like as well help people finding the right arguments (or myth counter arguments) to be able to implement smalltalk in their company themselves. It is the same as programming: You have to unlearn "some truths" first before you can argue a better way. It works for me and people I talk to. And I (and other people, too..I guess) are open to answer questions about this. Norbert

June 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Where to get Magritte?

by btc＠openinworld.com

Bahman Movaqar wrote: > Hi all, > > What is the correct/current repository for Magritte? > > TIA, > To play with Magritte3, I would suggest downloading Moose [1] where it is integrated with some other tools. Moose is a distribution based off Pharo for software and data analysis. While there, you may also find Glamour of interest. [1] http://www.moosetechnology.org/about [2] https://www.iam.unibe.ch/mailman/listinfo/moose-dev cheers -ben

June 3, 2013

Where to get Magritte?

by Bahman Movaqar

Hi all, What is the correct/current repository for Magritte? TIA, -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> > But in general, I personally, 100% agree with you. Nothing better > attracts the likes of me and at the same time proves the potentials of > Smalltalk. I've already started a small project named Simin[1] with the > exact same goal. I strongly encourage you to have a look at magritte because with magritte you can describe you objects and get for free seaside components, validator â¦. The idea is that you describe your domain objects and build/use interpreters(programs) that are aware that the domain objects are described with magritte. Voyage uses mongotalk and magrrite to serialize objects in mongo. The pier cms is using magritte. http://www.ibizlog.com, the association and consortium web site are magritte-based. There is an old chapter on magritte 2 on the seaside book http://book.seaside.st. >> * that say say its a Model Driven Architecture with everything in an >> "Active Data Dictionary" defining where stuff is rendered, how its >> rendered - so I wonder if that eases hooking Smalltalk in > > IIRC Jorg Janke (the original developer) made the first Compiere > prototypes in Smalltalk back in 1999. However he switched to Java > because he couldn't sell it as a Smalltalk app :-( > >> * the number of times "refactoring" was mentioned - so I wonder if a >> good student research project would be an IDE for refactoring Java, even >> to the degree of refactoring Java into Smalltalk > > Most of the trouble of Compiere/Adempiere[2] refactoring stems from the > fact that it's just spaghetti code and there is no clear distinction > between UI and model. With a good technical design[2], most of that > *nightmare* just vanishes away. argh :) > > >> * they made simple prototype of web interface in 2 weeks - obviously >> they have the advantage of their own code, but maybe something similar >> would be reasonably achievable as a demonstrator. >> >> * reminded me of the massive amount of work in the world just >> customizing applications to match customer business processes. eg >> millions of dollars in the SAP world > > That is right. I am an independent ERP consultant who's been in this > field for more than 7 years now, implementing Compiere and later Adempiere. > > One of my dreams, is re-writing Adempiere functionality in a > language/framwork/paradigm/whatever that removes the technical flaws and > reduces the development/extension time. That's the reason I keep > searching for a new language/framework even though I normally don't code > these days. This would be really good :) > >> * Compiere has some good branding in the business world. > > Had :-) > >> [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3znA_4xptA > > Ah. Can't view the video. YouTube is filtered out here :-( > > Regarding writing a business app or re-writing an existing one, I have > lots of ideas but I hold them for another time as they seem OT. > > > [1] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Bahman/Simin/ > > [2] There was this fork of Compiere back in 2006 named Adempiere. Today > Adempiere has both Swing and web (done using ZK) UIs. > Also Compiere was bought and closed source'd by Consona in 2010 IIRC. > > [3] Compiere/Adempiere really don't need business re-design :-) > > > -- > Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) > ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant >

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

I thought about the same. This is a pity that I do not have the knowledge to build one :) On Jun 2, 2013, at 3:50 PM, btc(a)openInWorld.com wrote: > I have had similar thoughts that many people are first drawn to an application, and then end up in its development language by default. My thought was based around a non-critical application like a mind-map tool (similar to Freemind). Something non-critical makes it easier for the techies to slip it in the back door without management getting involved. However an open source ERP like Compiere would be fantastic. The trouble would be attracting a domain expert to implement it ;) Perhaps one way to go would finding an existing database driven open source ERP system that doesn't have a web interface, and gradually bolt on a web interface using Seaside.

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Debugger question

by Juan Ignacio Vaccarezza

Phil, You can take a look at http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~sebnozzi/CategorySaver This is not a solution for your real problem but it might help to reduce the impact. Regards, Juan On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 5:51 AM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be>wrote: > Ok. > > I'll get the latest PharoVM and move from there. > > And recovering lost changes when facing this is just a huge pain. > > Phil > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013, ClÃ©ment Bera wrote: > >> Yeah there was a bug report about stepping on Processor terminateActive. >> >> I tried with the latest Pharo VM and I was able to do Cmd . to interrupt. >> It worked several times, but it might be just a question of luck. >> >> It is not easy to fix. We could as a temporary patch hardcode the step >> over terminateActive ... >> >> >> 2013/6/1 phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> >> >>> When using the debugger, I am often getting into the situation shown in >>> the attached picture when stepping. >>> >>> And the image is then frozen. No matter how much Cmd-. I do, no way out >>> it seems. >>> >>> For newcomers, this is really discouraging I think. >>> >>> What can we do to alleviate this? >>> >>> Thx, >>> Phil >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ClÃ©ment BÃ©ra >> Mate Virtual Machine Engineer >> BÃ¢timent B 40, avenue Halley 59650 *Villeneuve d'Ascq* >> >

June 2, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo consultants

by Bahman Movaqar

On 2013-06-02 19:07, btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: > btc(a)openinworld.com wrote: >> Bahman Movaqar wrote: >> > >> > ** A very good way to promote a mature and well thought-out language >> > like Smalltalk/Pharo is to something serious with it and let people >> know >> > about it. Honestly, I'd write a business application, open source it >> > and try to promote it on the net. >> > Many companies are coding in Java because the main software they >> > implement is written in Java. As an example, I have to do business in >> > Java because the ERP for which I offer services is written in Java. >> And >> > I know quite a lot of people/companies sticking to Java/.NET for the >> > same reason. >> > I have had similar thoughts that many people are first drawn to an >> application, and then end up in its development language by default. >> My thought was based around a non-critical application like a mind-map >> tool (similar to Freemind). Something non-critical makes it easier >> for the techies to slip it in the back door without management getting >> involved. However an open source ERP like Compiere would be >> fantastic. The trouble would be attracting a domain expert to >> implement it ;) Perhaps one way to go would finding an existing >> database driven open source ERP system that doesn't have a web >> interface, and gradually bolt on a web interface using Seaside. >> > > I hesitated a bit linking to this video [1] about Compiere moving from a > desktop app to a web app, but a few comments made it seem > not-too-far-off-topic, and surprisingly might actually make it a good > target for a Smalltalk project to get its teeth into. That's an exciting idea. Though, honestly, I wouldn't dare to target Compiere :-) Compiere is a giant mess of Spaghetti code but with a huge feature-set/functionality non-matched in even most commercial softwares -I know...I'm marketing :-) But in general, I personally, 100% agree with you. Nothing better attracts the likes of me and at the same time proves the potentials of Smalltalk. I've already started a small project named Simin[1] with the exact same goal. > * that say say its a Model Driven Architecture with everything in an > "Active Data Dictionary" defining where stuff is rendered, how its > rendered - so I wonder if that eases hooking Smalltalk in IIRC Jorg Janke (the original developer) made the first Compiere prototypes in Smalltalk back in 1999. However he switched to Java because he couldn't sell it as a Smalltalk app :-( > * the number of times "refactoring" was mentioned - so I wonder if a > good student research project would be an IDE for refactoring Java, even > to the degree of refactoring Java into Smalltalk Most of the trouble of Compiere/Adempiere[2] refactoring stems from the fact that it's just spaghetti code and there is no clear distinction between UI and model. With a good technical design[2], most of that *nightmare* just vanishes away. > * they want to maintain both desktop and web clients - I'm sure there > were some recent comments on pharo-dev about abmitions to > "deploy-everywhere" eg desktop and web together > > * they felt going Javascript and AJAX would suffer from losing complete > debuggability - I am thinking of the benefits of web client side Amber > debugger It is true. However in Adempiere, using ZK framework, they managed to keep the debuggability to some extent. But that is definitely nowhere near "halos" or Amber. > * they made simple prototype of web interface in 2 weeks - obviously > they have the advantage of their own code, but maybe something similar > would be reasonably achievable as a demonstrator. > > * reminded me of the massive amount of work in the world just > customizing applications to match customer business processes. eg > millions of dollars in the SAP world That is right. I am an independent ERP consultant who's been in this field for more than 7 years now, implementing Compiere and later Adempiere. One of my dreams, is re-writing Adempiere functionality in a language/framwork/paradigm/whatever that removes the technical flaws and reduces the development/extension time. That's the reason I keep searching for a new language/framework even though I normally don't code these days. > * Compiere has some good branding in the business world. Had :-) > [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3znA_4xptA Ah. Can't view the video. YouTube is filtered out here :-( Regarding writing a business app or re-writing an existing one, I have lots of ideas but I hold them for another time as they seem OT. [1] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Bahman/Simin/ [2] There was this fork of Compiere back in 2006 named Adempiere. Today Adempiere has both Swing and web (done using ZK) UIs. Also Compiere was bought and closed source'd by Consona in 2010 IIRC. [3] Compiere/Adempiere really don't need business re-design :-) -- Bahman Movaqar (http://BahmanM.com) ERP Evaluation, Implementation, Deployment Consultant

June 2, 2013