April 2013 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Slot questions

by Thomas Worthington

On Sat, 06 Apr 2013 18:10:26 +0100, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> I'm also not attempting to say that those who are very active with >> Pharo are bad programmers because documentation has become >> problematical - if they are then I'm a bad programmer too - I just want >> to point out that a system has even more need of documentation than a >> completed application and *if it's possible* (and I know that finance >> is an issue in the real world) then I think that updating the Pharo >> book(s) to a point where they describe the current Pharo 2.0 state is >> FAR more important than work on Pharo 3.0. > > > We need both. Documentation is important, but just documenting a system > that nobody needs makes no sense, either. > I would agree. I don't think that Pharo2.0 counts as a system that nobody needs, though. I'm paid to develop for Moodle, a vast PHP-based e-learning project and I can assure you that the world is full of people who need a proper OO development system! Obviously there's a balance to be had, but I don't think that it's too radical to suggest that a major version bump should be followed by a period of consolidation in the documentation before proceeding. TW

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Slot questions

by Marcus Denker

On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:00 PM, "Thomas Worthington" <thomas(a)technouveau.co.uk> wrote: > Look at Morphic. Morphic is a mess of epic proportion. The ideas are good (the basic ones), but the implementation is beyond hope. > That's about all you can do with it if you've got a full time job that's not Smalltalk related - Morphic is unmaintanable and unusable for everyone. > > The answer to Marcus' question "what should I not do to have time for that" is "anything". Anything is a bit of a hard thing.. e.g. Morphic does not need to be documented, it needs to be thrown away and reimplemented. It's just a pile of crap. > I'm also not attempting to say that those who are very active with Pharo are bad programmers because documentation has become problematical - if they are then I'm a bad programmer too - I just want to point out that a system has even more need of documentation than a completed application and *if it's possible* (and I know that finance is an issue in the real world) then I think that updating the Pharo book(s) to a point where they describe the current Pharo 2.0 state is FAR more important than work on Pharo 3.0. We need both. Documentation is important, but just documenting a system that nobody needs makes no sense, either. Marcus

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Slot questions

by Thomas Worthington

On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 19:25:35 +0100, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > On 04 Apr 2013, at 20:21, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > >> On Apr 4, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Paul Davidowitz <pdavidow(a)fastmail.fm> >> wrote: >> >>> To Camillo Bruni: >>> I'm not using any slot image (I only looked over the paper). According >>> to the Pharo book, 'pvt' should be implemented in the mainstream image. >>> >> The Pharo book is about a version of Pharo from many years ago. >> >>> To Marcus Denker: >>> There are actually several methods in the image with the 'pvt' prefix. >>> Please update the doc (Pharo book) to remove talking about 'pvt'. It >>> would have saved me a little headache :) >>> >> The pharo book is very oldâ¦ yes, we need to update it. What should I not >> do to have time for that? >> >> Marcus > > Documentation, of any kind, always comes back to haunt you. > This is a real problem, even a class or method comments quickly gets out > of sync as software evolves. > Maybe, just like in code, the key is to write as little as possible in > an elegant non repetitive way. > That's fine if you never want to have new people pick up your project and get started. Otherwise I would say that an undocumented API may as well never have been built. Look at Morphic. That's about all you can do with it if you've got a full time job that's not Smalltalk related - look at it. The documentation is about zilch and what there is consists of layers and layers of material relating to varying systems of varying ages. The answer to Marcus' question "what should I not do to have time for that" is "anything". Nothing is more important than accurate documentation. Even a system that is broken will get fixed quicker if there is documentation which allows new hands to be added to the task of fixing it. Incorrect documentation is WORSE than no documentation; would anyone really suggest that Pharo would be a viable system without any documentation? My experience of several large Open Source projects (and many Closed Source ones) is that the people involved in the projects get familiar with the APIs and methods and can fail to see just how hard it has become for outsiders to break in. This is why I'm worried about slots. At the moment I can at least learn about Smalltalk generically and pick up Pharo and, with a lot of effort, get to the point that I can do something useful. If new concepts are added to the language *and then used by the in-group to get on with the things they're interested in* without good documentation then all that has happened is that the tool has become more specialized for the work of the contributing group while becoming harder to access for others. I'm *not* really that worried about slots in and of themselves if they can be added cleanly; I'm more worried about the gap between what documentation there is and how the system *actually* works growing ever wider. I'm also not attempting to say that those who are very active with Pharo are bad programmers because documentation has become problematical - if they are then I'm a bad programmer too - I just want to point out that a system has even more need of documentation than a completed application and *if it's possible* (and I know that finance is an issue in the real world) then I think that updating the Pharo book(s) to a point where they describe the current Pharo 2.0 state is FAR more important than work on Pharo 3.0. Well, that's my view, anyway as a professional programmer who has struggled to get to grips with Pharo in my spare time. Thomas Worthington

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Open Source OODB's

by Dennis Schetinin

+1 BTW, I think that's a shame for smalltalkers to have so many libs for external persistence solutions. That's not a paradox. Alternatives are good, but Smalltalk was the first environment that had built-in persistence as much as 35, if not 40 years ago. Is there much progress since that time? I wouldn't say so. GemStone is great, but it's monolithic. And pricey. And that's one more Smalltalk in our Balkans. Why Pharo or Squeak don't have a framework (based on Fuel for example) that allows to control changes, execute transaction, save some parts of image instead of whole image etc.? This could be less efficient then GemStone, but loadable on demand, customizable and usable in smaller projects. Maybe there's such a project living already? Or is it too much for modern Smalltalk? It's not complaining. I know the answer: there's no usable persistence solution because I didn't create it :) I just want to know if someone else thinks the same way as I do? Consider that a very first step towards starting such a project, if it is feasible at allâ¦ -- Best regards, Dennis Schetinin 2013/4/6 stephane ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)free.fr> > > > Hi > 2013/4/1 Victor Stan <victor.stan(a)gmail.com> > >> Hi, >> >> Are there any open source OODB's out there? Alternatives to GemStone? >> > > I think there is no alternavise to GemStone. > > > I hope not :) > Gemstone is good but an ecosystem with only one solution would look rather > limited to me. > > Because GemStome is not just data store. It is applicaton server where you > work in multi user image system. > Imagine single Pharo image which can work under different parallel VM > instances (maybe running on different machines) which have concurrent > access to same image objects, can commit it changes (save same image). > > >

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Need help with dynamically finding packages/categories on pharo

by Alain Busser

Oh my, already thinking about Pharo 3.0 ... Will there be an automatic recognizing of spoken words so that one will be able to program on Pharo 3.0 on a tablet, without any keyboard, just with the microphone? Will Pharo 3.0 cook the coffee on morning? Who knows... Alain :-D On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 11:19 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com>wrote: > he... still not correct :) > > Smalltalk globals organization. > > is the correct one. > > (look systemOrganization implementation both in RPackage and PackageInfo. > > What happens with PackageInfo is that is deprecated, and will be gone for > 3.0. PhackageInfo, also, does not keep the data as the system sees it > anymore... so better not use it at all, it is there to provide old tool > maintainers a good way to adapt. > > cheers, > Esteban > > On Apr 5, 2013, at 6:04 AM, ashwinshankar77 <ashwinshankar77(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Thanks for all your suggestions ! > > Estiban - this is what I was looking for :) . Then I wanted classes in > each > > package as well,and I got that by doing : PackageInfo new > > systemOrganization > > > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Need-help-with-dynamically-finding-packages-categorie… > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > >

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Association reaches 50 Members

by stephane ducasse

Great We got a list of improvements on the pipe for the association web site and we should start to think about actions. Stef On Apr 4, 2013, at 11:07 PM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi, > > The Pharo Association has reached 52 Members! > > The Pharo User Association is a way for individuals to support the ongoing development and > maintenance of the Pharo language and environment. It complements the Pharo Consortium > which is a consortium of companies supporting Pharo. > > Together the association and the consortium invest in the future of Pharo. > > Information about how to join the Pharo Association and Consortium can be found on the website. > > http://association.pharo.org > http://consortium.pharo.org > > Marcus > >

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Open Source OODB's

by stephane ducasse

> Hi > 2013/4/1 Victor Stan <victor.stan(a)gmail.com> > Hi, > > Are there any open source OODB's out there? Alternatives to GemStone? > > I think there is no alternavise to GemStone. I hope not :) Gemstone is good but an ecosystem with only one solution would look rather limited to me. > Because GemStome is not just data store. It is applicaton server where you work in multi user image system. > Imagine single Pharo image which can work under different parallel VM instances (maybe running on different machines) which have concurrent access to same image objects, can commit it changes (save same image). >

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] account pharo collaborActive book

by stephane ducasse

On Apr 4, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Is there any way to obtain the book in a single HTML file?, ideally with the proper semantics (headings, sections, etc.). I do not know. No time to check. Now I want to genertae the tools section from the configurationOf file and we will work on a prototype for that. Stef > > Regards! > > Esteban A. Maringolo > > > 2013/4/4 Sabine KnÃ¶fel <sabine.knoefel(a)gmail.com> > Hi, > > the login sabine pharo does noch work > > Login: Invalid username or password. > > Sabine > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/account-pharo-collaborActive-book-tp4679573p4679605.h… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Need help with dynamically finding packages/categories on pharo

by stephane ducasse

On Apr 4, 2013, at 7:30 PM, ashwinshankar77 <ashwinshankar77(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I'm a grad student at UIUC and I'm working on building > an automatic package(category) refactoring and visualization tool for pharo. Excellent what tools are you using? I really suggest you to use Pharo2.0 because 1.4 is one year old and we are working on 3.0 so you will be using a two version old image from us and you will get less accurate information. In addition pharo 20 got a lot of improvements. > As a first step,I need to figure out how I can programmatically get the list > of packages/categories in the image. > To do this I tried the following - when I open the 'System Browser' > in pharo,the leftmost pane displays the packages. So I did a bit of reverse > engineering and started looking into the SystemBrowser class to see how > it gets the list of packages.But I'm not able to figure out. > > Can you please let me know how I can get the current list of > packages in the image(basically the packages as displayed in leftmost pane > of System Browser) ? > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Need-help-with-dynamically-finding-packages-categorie… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

April 6, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Trying to install Pharo Non Core Packages from online instructions.

by Victor Stan

Wanted to play around with audio api. Is there a way to get a description of what each package does in the configuration browser? I just see the name, which I have to Google to figure out what it does. Victor Stan On Apr 5, 2013 1:15 AM, "Marcus Denker" <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On Apr 5, 2013, at 7:12 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > On Apr 5, 2013, at 4:08 AM, Victor Stan <victor.stan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > So it seems that "Preferences" is a class in the Compatibility > package/collection, and it has no methods at all... > > I guess this is a dead end for this package? > > I'n learning along, I appreciate your patience :) > > > Hi, as I already said: This is code for a very old version of Pharo that > will just *not* work in a current version. > "ConfigurationOfPharoNonCore" is not maintained for quite a while, it's > all old versions that are loaded. > > > Why do you want to load it? > > Marcus >

April 5, 2013