November 2013 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by phil＠highoctane.be

Monticello is quite good, especially with Metacello associated to it. I'd like to have the MetacelloToolBox working nicely with FTP repos and will spend a while on that in the coming weeks, but frankly, that's great to use to keep things in sync. I'd pay for STH but for private projects and with the bells and whistles of GitHub (Wiki, issues, teams, non smalltalk files etc).Long story short, GitHub is good also. Maybe consortium members fees could get into have STH supported. Phil

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by kilon alios

You will need to explain because I don't understand what you mean by centralized vs distributed , does not support working at the right granularity. Influence the way Github goes is besides the point at this point since we dont have a better alternative and I will be a great oracle to predict , or not, that we wont have one in the next decade. Unless something extraordinary happens and Pharo goes super popular. Being a commercial application has not stopped tons of open source projects porting to it. But hey what do they know. I am not sure what you mean about sourceforge, I see still loads of open source project using it. The thing I see right now, is that I already use Github with Filetree and Monticello-GIT and it works. Can see the commits I made manually to git and create git commits. The only thing it does not do is push though thats also pretty much a matter of adding the code. So it looks like monticello is already there. It could be polished and sophisticated git interaction be integrated but I think with time we will see those things as well hopefully I can give a helping hand. And if Git is good enough to version control Linux source, I dont see why it would be a big problem to Pharo. But even if it is should not be faster if we make extensions to git via monticello to work around these potential problems instead of doing a huge project from scratch ? I will keep trying Monticello-GIT , if it works as well it seems to work I will probably stick with it. I would love also to extend it when I become familiar with its internals. Big thanks to people behind this. I think being against git is perfectly fine, wanting to trying your own thing is awesome, focusing on pharo specific solution is of course a good thing. But then not wanting to do that and use what is already out there can be as wise. On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > Kilon wrote > >I take a look at previous experiments like squeaksource and I find little > justification to not support Github. But then I am not against Smalltalkhub > or other >repos being available to Pharo. The more the merrier. > > I see some very strong arguments against depending on github: > - it is centralized infrastructure, essentially unsuitable for use with a > distributed version control system; > - it doesnât support working at the right granularity; > - the smalltalk community is too small to have any influence on the > directions github is taking. > It is a commercial organization that can decide to do something we donât > like at any time. > It is free, so we are the product. Just take a look at sourceforge; > - we can do much better than github (but donât have enough time). We > should be using a P2P, > bittorrent like system for version control. > > Stephan > > > >

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by Camillo Bruni

On 2013-11-03, at 15:52, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > Kilon wrote >> I take a look at previous experiments like squeaksource and I find little justification to not support Github. But then I am not against Smalltalkhub or other >repos being available to Pharo. The more the merrier. > > I see some very strong arguments against depending on github: > - it is centralized infrastructure, essentially unsuitable for use with a distributed version control system; > - it doesnât support working at the right granularity; > - the smalltalk community is too small to have any influence on the directions github is taking. > It is a commercial organization that can decide to do something we donât like at any time. > It is free, so we are the product. Just take a look at sourceforge; > - we can do much better than github (but donât have enough time). We should be using a P2P, > bittorrent like system for version control. github != git and whether we use github or now does not matter at all. What matters is that we use technology that is robust and that we have a versioning system that works decentralized. All of that is solved by git. With filetree we have the proper granularity (methods) With github we have an awesome website, such as we have an aweseome website with smalltalkhub, execpt that monticello should be modernized. Sadly the community is too small to achieve that, and inventing yet another versioning tool/system won't help on the short run. Maybe, yes someday in the future we can have our own fancy fully object-oriented versioning system, but IMO that is wasted effort, as git/mercurial come very close to something ideal. I am happy to give more insight into git, because I think you have quite a wrong picture about it :)

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by Yuriy Tymchuk

But why? On 03 Nov 2013, at 15:52, Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > Kilon wrote >> I take a look at previous experiments like squeaksource and I find little justification to not support Github. But then I am not against Smalltalkhub or other >repos being available to Pharo. The more the merrier. > > I see some very strong arguments against depending on github: > - it is centralized infrastructure, essentially unsuitable for use with a distributed version control system; Itâs now. Git is decentralised. And Guthub helps to use that even more with forks, pull requests, etc. > - it doesnât support working at the right granularity; I donât get the point. > - the smalltalk community is too small to have any influence on the directions github is taking. true > It is a commercial organization that can decide to do something we donât like at any time. > It is free, so we are the product. Just take a look at sourceforge; > - we can do much better than github (but donât have enough time). We should be using a P2P, > bittorrent like system for version control. I think we should think about that. Monticello bothers me a lot. You have a lot of duplications, no safety for previous versions, etc. I donât like an idea of snapshots. Storing changes looks much better to me. > > > Stephan > > > Uko

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by Stephan Eggermont

Kilon wrote >I take a look at previous experiments like squeaksource and I find little justification to not support Github. But then I am not against Smalltalkhub or other >repos being available to Pharo. The more the merrier. I see some very strong arguments against depending on github: - it is centralized infrastructure, essentially unsuitable for use with a distributed version control system; - it doesnât support working at the right granularity; - the smalltalk community is too small to have any influence on the directions github is taking. It is a commercial organization that can decide to do something we donât like at any time. It is free, so we are the product. Just take a look at sourceforge; - we can do much better than github (but donât have enough time). We should be using a P2P, bittorrent like system for version control. Stephan

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Yet another "building a GUI" question

by Sergi Reyner

2013/11/2 <btc(a)openinworld.com> > Sergi Reyner wrote: > >> >> - Tried and somewhat succeeded in building my GUI with Spec, which >> apparently doesn't know about images. >> >> > As a new framework, sometimes it is just a use-case that has not been > considered or prioritized. If you can describe your situation in detail > with a simple script that you would "expect" to work, "sometimes" you can > be surprised at how fast your needs can be met. Obviously I say sometimes > because variable factors are many (problem complexity, other peoples > priorities) - but (not to get your hopes up too much) I personally have > been surprised at time by the speed of response from the Pharo community. > Developers can only see-what-they-see from their own perspective. Users > are a great asset to a framework to identify gaps. If you can detail your > needs with sample code then I'm sure that would be appreciated. I might > even give it a go, even though I am not so intimate with Spec. > > cheers -ben > > Something like this: initializeWidgets self instantiateModels: { (#listModel -> #ListComposableModel). (#pictureModel -> #AlphaImageModel). } I tried to follow how Spec "thingies" are constructed but somewhere along the chain I lost the trail. Cheers, Sergi

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by kilon alios

Well I am for one promoting the use of Gihub mainly on the grounds of promotion of Pharo efforts. the more projects are uploaded on github the more exposure Pharo gets.Its also possible to have both Smalltalkhub and Github, we could use Github as a fallback, a backup system for Smalltalkhub and have monticello automagically commit to both with a press of a button. Github also offers a nice convenient way for issue tracking, bug reports, feature request and forums. Gist is excellent for generating code examples on the fly. Leveraging existing technologies means we can concentrate on new features and new ideas. Also not having to maintain Smalltalkhub from an operational basis is good news. We need to acknowledge that we are a very small community that needs to take to account that we dont have the manpower to afford Pharo specific solutions for everything and anything. Especially for such demanding task as versions control. Every user that comes to Pharo will ask "what new Pharo gives me to justify abandoning my existing favorite choice ? ". I take a look at previous experiments like squeaksource and I find little justification to not support Github. But then I am not against Smalltalkhub or other repos being available to Pharo. The more the merrier. On the matters of payment , sure you can do that too, but as I said , we are a very small community we need to be realistic about these things. I think it depends on how you see Pharo for yourself. I see Pharo not as a replacement but rather as an extension of available technology and I would love to see Pharo play better and better with existing technologies not just Github. Pharo is doing already this with Athens (Cairo) , NBOpengl (as well as previous opengl implementations) , Amber (though external to pharo , deeply related to it) and many more. Saying that, I am also a fan of Pharo precisely because is not afraid to do things its own way, try new fresh experimental ideas, go against the flow and brake some rules in the process. So I think the secret of success for Pharo is between being a good supporter of existing technologies but also a ground for bringing newones to the users. I will also love to see Smalltalkhub expand and improve and I even see myself why not contributing with my small effort to it. As we say in Greece "anything done with precise measure is perfection" . On Sun, Nov 3, 2013 at 2:22 PM, MartinW <wm(a)fastmail.fm> wrote: > Just a thought on the discussions about Smalltalkhub beeing down and people > would love to use Gibhub instead: > > I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free. > > And there is all this talk about building a business with Pharo - why not > make a business from Smalltalkhub? The thought of course is that when > Smalltalkhub would be a business, itâs makers could spend more time and > effort keeping it up and running and adding new features. > > This may have been quoted a lot but still: > "The lesson: People are happy to pay for things that work well. Never be > afraid to put a price on something. If you pour your heart into something > and make it great, sell it. For real money. Even if there are free options, > even if the market is flooded with free. People will pay for things they > love.â > From: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2794-how-to-get-good-at-making-money > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/I-would-rather-pay-for-Smalltalkhub-than-use-Github-f… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by Yuriy Tymchuk

Hi. Youâre right in general. But for me the main question is: can Monticello work well? This thing was not evolving for years. Something has to be done. Uko On 03 Nov 2013, at 13:22, MartinW <wm(a)fastmail.fm> wrote: > Just a thought on the discussions about Smalltalkhub beeing down and people > would love to use Gibhub instead: > > I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free. > > And there is all this talk about building a business with Pharo - why not > make a business from Smalltalkhub? The thought of course is that when > Smalltalkhub would be a business, itâs makers could spend more time and > effort keeping it up and running and adding new features. > > This may have been quoted a lot but still: > "The lesson: People are happy to pay for things that work well. Never be > afraid to put a price on something. If you pour your heart into something > and make it great, sell it. For real money. Even if there are free options, > even if the market is flooded with free. People will pay for things they > love.â > From: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2794-how-to-get-good-at-making-money > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/I-would-rather-pay-for-Smalltalkhub-than-use-Github-f… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Nov. 3, 2013

I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free.

by MartinW

Just a thought on the discussions about Smalltalkhub beeing down and people would love to use Gibhub instead: I would rather pay for Smalltalkhub than use Github for free. And there is all this talk about building a business with Pharo - why not make a business from Smalltalkhub? The thought of course is that when Smalltalkhub would be a business, itâs makers could spend more time and effort keeping it up and running and adding new features. This may have been quoted a lot but still: "The lesson: People are happy to pay for things that work well. Never be afraid to put a price on something. If you pour your heart into something and make it great, sell it. For real money. Even if there are free options, even if the market is flooded with free. People will pay for things they love.â From: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2794-how-to-get-good-at-making-money -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/I-would-rather-pay-for-Smalltalkhub-than-use-Github-f… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Nov. 3, 2013

Re: [Pharo-users] Updating Pharo 2 - Unable to resolve ConfigurationOfFuel

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 03 Nov 2013, at 12:37, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > When we move to an image-bootstrap for the development of Pharo itself (I guess in Pharo4), we should really check what and how (and if) we > support updating existing images, or if we declare the image to be something that *always* be the result of a deterministic build processâ¦ Yes, a base image should be exactly that !

Nov. 3, 2013