August 2012 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by dimitris chloupis

And all that under the assumption that people know what they want ... which is not true , even for me that I tend to be quite clear on the things I want and believe in. Plus , who does not love pleasant surprises ? I love when people reallyÂ innovateÂ and try new fresh approaches to old problems.Â Also about the poll, I did it, but it was too short to beÂ meaningfulÂ , well at least to me. By the way Clojure has an extremely interesting survey/poll for each year maybe we can do something similar for pharo and squeak --->Â http://cemerick.com/2012/08/06/results-of-the-2012-state-of-clojure-survey/ ________________________________ From: Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> To: A friendly place where any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr> Sent: Wednesday, 22 August 2012, 13:59 Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll On 22 August 2012 06:05, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >> >> or look at this form another perspective: >>Â if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting >> for and not doing it in a first place? > > > I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo > developers to make things better. Don't you think so? > The main problem with this is that often questions and received answers will remain to be just a questions and received answers: the results are never implemented/reflected into something material. So, as to me it is more useful to do something real instead of asking around "what something real we should do?" and then unable to do it. Everyone wants X, but nobody doing it. Do you know how many of those X's i heard over past few years? More than you can do even if you spend all of your life doing them. >> >> Pharo is open project after all. >> Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to >> do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in >> implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked .. >> > > Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me > your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate > polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection > classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. > Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't > answer :) > Once again, i don't think that showing interest in something in form of pool is the best way to communicate.. And polls is one way communication.. and pretty obscure one. For example, if you ask in poll "do you use Traits" most of people may answer "no", so that may drive your decision to remove them.. until you discover that most of people actually meant to say is: "i don't use traits in my current project, but they should stay because they can be useful and i can see their potential" > HernÃ¡n -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by Igor Stasenko

On 22 August 2012 06:05, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >> >> or look at this form another perspective: >> if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting >> for and not doing it in a first place? > > > I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo > developers to make things better. Don't you think so? > The main problem with this is that often questions and received answers will remain to be just a questions and received answers: the results are never implemented/reflected into something material. So, as to me it is more useful to do something real instead of asking around "what something real we should do?" and then unable to do it. Everyone wants X, but nobody doing it. Do you know how many of those X's i heard over past few years? More than you can do even if you spend all of your life doing them. >> >> Pharo is open project after all. >> Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to >> do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in >> implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked .. >> > > Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me > your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate > polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection > classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. > Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't > answer :) > Once again, i don't think that showing interest in something in form of pool is the best way to communicate.. And polls is one way communication.. and pretty obscure one. For example, if you ask in poll "do you use Traits" most of people may answer "no", so that may drive your decision to remove them.. until you discover that most of people actually meant to say is: "i don't use traits in my current project, but they should stay because they can be useful and i can see their potential" > HernÃ¡n -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hernan, There is always room for improvement, but I think you are missing the point here. Of course, the poll is narrow (*all* polls are)... We could collect more data, but there is no poll without a question to answer, and here the real question is "what for?" What questions do you want to answer when making a poll. And then, when you see narrowness, I see clarity: I just have three questions that want answered (well, and a "hidden" one, but that's for later :). In fact, two of your three examples of questions were present in my first draft, and I removed them because they didn't provide more insight in *my* questions, which are pretty straightforward. Yes, I missed some other interesting questions for what I'm looking for, e.g. "why are you still using an older version of Pharo?", but well... you cannot make it perfect :) Of course, everybody has their own questions, and of course, if you want a "pharo census", we need to make much more questions... but that was off what I was looking for :) Esteban ps: yes, we can prepare a "pharo census", that can be interesting information too, and I would really like to have your help on preparing it... but lets complete this one small poll first. On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:05 AM, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > or look at this form another perspective: > if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting > for and not doing it in a first place? > > I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo developers to make things better. Don't you think so? > > Pharo is open project after all. > Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to > do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in > implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked .. > > > Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. > Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't answer :) > > HernÃ¡n > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > > > > -- > HernÃ¡n Morales > Institute of Veterinary Genetics. > National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET). > La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina. > Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799. > Internal: 422 > Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799. >

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

2012/8/22 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > or look at this form another perspective: > if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting > for and not doing it in a first place? > I'm doing it, saying that a brief poll could be better is pushing Pharo developers to make things better. Don't you think so? > Pharo is open project after all. > Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to > do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in > implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked .. > > Yes, I'd like to be asked for the right questions. Your questions tell me your interests much as your lack of questions. I'm proposing more accurate polls... like "which packages do you use often?", "which non-core Collection classes do you need more?", "do you use Traits?", etc. Nobody is obliged to answer any poll, if too many questions, you just don't answer :) HernÃ¡n > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > -- HernÃ¡n Morales Institute of Veterinary Genetics. National Scientific and Technical Research Council (CONICET). La Plata (1900), Buenos Aires, Argentina. Telephone: +54 (0221) 421-1799. Internal: 422 Fax: 425-7980 or 421-1799.

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by Igor Stasenko

or look at this form another perspective: if you know how to make things better, improve them, what you waiting for and not doing it in a first place? Pharo is open project after all. Or at least, if you having a great idea but have no time/resources to do it, why you don't proposing it or asking around who interested in implementing it, but sitting there waiting to be asked .. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by Igor Stasenko

On 22 August 2012 04:30, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2012/8/21 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> >> >> On 22 August 2012 02:55, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > Hi Esteban, >> > >> > Sorry but I have to say the poll is pretty narrow. It could be hundred >> > of >> > interesting questions. I offer myself to help providing more questions, >> > let's find what really users want... >> >> can i be first to answer? > > > No problem :) > >> >> i want less annoying polls with hundreds of questions >> > > Sure, not questioning is the right way to gain more knowledge. > >> >> the number of questions in poll is in reverse proportion to number of >> people willing to answer it >> :) >> > > Proof? > That's so obvious. Imagine someone stands before huge auditory and saying: - i can make a great thing, which will improve our daily life , all i asking for is to give me 1 penny from everyone. or: - i can make a great thing, which will improve our daily life , all i asking for is to give me 1 million bucks from everyone. :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

2012/8/21 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > On 22 August 2012 02:55, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Hi Esteban, > > > > Sorry but I have to say the poll is pretty narrow. It could be hundred of > > interesting questions. I offer myself to help providing more questions, > > let's find what really users want... > > can i be first to answer? > No problem :) > i want less annoying polls with hundreds of questions > > Sure, not questioning is the right way to gain more knowledge. > the number of questions in poll is in reverse proportion to number of > people willing to answer it > :) > > Proof? > > Cheers, > > > > HernÃ¡n > > > > > > 2012/8/21 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > >> > >> Hi guys, > >> > >> I created a small poll to know which versions of pharo are you using and > >> with which purpose... can you be so kind and fill the form? is really > small > >> and can provide some insights about further directions :) > >> > >> > >> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?fromEmail=true&formkey=dFZKeXU… > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Esteban > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > >

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by Igor Stasenko

On 22 August 2012 02:55, HernÃ¡n Morales Durand <hernan.morales(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Esteban, > > Sorry but I have to say the poll is pretty narrow. It could be hundred of > interesting questions. I offer myself to help providing more questions, > let's find what really users want... can i be first to answer? i want less annoying polls with hundreds of questions the number of questions in poll is in reverse proportion to number of people willing to answer it :) > Cheers, > > HernÃ¡n > > > 2012/8/21 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> >> >> Hi guys, >> >> I created a small poll to know which versions of pharo are you using and >> with which purpose... can you be so kind and fill the form? is really small >> and can provide some insights about further directions :) >> >> >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?fromEmail=true&formkey=dFZKeXU… >> >> Thanks, >> Esteban > > > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Hi Esteban, Sorry but I have to say the poll is pretty narrow. It could be hundred of interesting questions. I offer myself to help providing more questions, let's find what really users want... Cheers, HernÃ¡n 2012/8/21 Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > Hi guys, > > I created a small poll to know which versions of pharo are you using and > with which purpose... can you be so kind and fill the form? is really small > and can provide some insights about further directions :) > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?fromEmail=true&formkey=dFZKeXU… > > Thanks, > Esteban >

Aug. 22, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo usage poll

by Ted F.A. van Gaalen

You're welcome ted van gaalen *it* services <http://www.tedvg.com/> www.tedvg.com <http://www.tedvg.com/> Ted F.A. van Gaalen Hauptstr.19/3 D-88636 Illmensee Germany T: +49 7558 92 17 840 M: +49 151 587 86 247 On Dienstag, 21. August 2012 18:07:41, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > Hi guys, > > I created a small poll to know which versions of pharo are you using > and with which purpose... can you be so kind and fill the form? is > really small and can provide some insights about further directions :) > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?fromEmail=true&formkey=dFZKeXU… > > Thanks, > Esteban

Aug. 21, 2012