December 2010 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] Money AND Feature requests

by James Ashley

On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 7:16 AM, Geoffroy Couprie <geo.couprie(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > > On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:20 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> Good! >> Tell us what architecture we can use for that. I should find some time to build a association of loi 1901 and get a paypal account for pharo. >> > > You should take a look at Flattr for donations. I think the basics might be a good idea, but flattr just doesn't seem like a useful/viable choice to me. They're way too vague about how much of the money they keep, and it's really set up as a subscription service (last time I checked, anyway). It's just that you get to decide how you distribute your $x per month (as long as you stay on top of things and make that decision every month). > Also, in case some > want to donate for specific feature, there are crowdfunding solutions > like kickstarter. Kickstarter sounds like it might be a *much* better choice for this sort of thing. I'm not sure how good it would be for on-going projects, though. e.g. "You paid $50 last month to have Geoffrey spend a month working on feature x. He estimates that he's 75% done. Will you spend $12.50 to let him spend another week on it?" Just my $0.02. -- James

Dec. 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Money AND Feature requests

by laurent laffont

Yes I think it's good to have a real Pharo entity / status / association loi 1901. For architecture, as AndrÃ©s said he/we can set a UserVoice. For raising money http://pledgie.com/. As for Flattr the idea is good but it seems to raise only little money actually (feedback from pharobyexample and pharocasts. But we haven't tried to encourage people to donate). Laurent. On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:20 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On Dec 10, 2010, at 11:00 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > > > Thinking again about this idea of voting system for features we would > like to see in Pharo. > > > > I won't pay 10 euros / month for someone to develop full time on Pharo on > what I do not control (may not be the best words to explain my feelings :) > > > > But I'm ready to give 30 to 50 euros to raise money to develop the most > wanted feature from a voting system. This give more visibility. > > > > It's easier to make a one shot donation than give XXeuros/month. > > Good! > Tell us what architecture we can use for that. I should find some time to > build a association of loi 1901 and get a paypal account for pharo. > > > > > > > So one way to achieve this is to set up a voting system AND associated > raising money system to develop the most wanted feature for one month. > > > > Another way is to pick the most wanted feature for Google Summer of code. > > Don't expect anything from it > > > With enough money one can stop his work for one month and develop > exclusively for Pharo. If it's too hard to raise money for one month, we can > try 15 days. I've seen that some great developers can do fantastic stuff in > 15 days when he loves it :) > > > > Laurent Laffont > > > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > On 10 December 2010 13:32, Davorin Rusevljan > > <davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Alan Rodas <alanrodas(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > >> I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but > what > > >> about a forum where the ideas are published. > > >> Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would > like to > > >> contribute may comment there. What it may be interesting is that the > whole > > >> discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep > track of > > >> old discussions and the state of a feature. > > >> If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement > something by > > >> your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on > ideas, > > >> maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on > > >> it together. A forum allows for contacting people, and sharing, and, > in that > > >> way, maybe the community will grow (Some developers feel they can do > > >> something because they don't have the time to do it by their own, or > they > > >> don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the > same > > >> goals.) > > >> > > >> > > >> Is just a thought. > > >> If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. > > > > > > Well, those are all nice thoughts. I am also relatively new to Pharo > > > though, I am with Smalltalk for quite a long time. In my humble > > > opinion, while both are always nice to have, at this stage Pharo, much > > > needs more hands willing to do the work, than hands filling the wish > > > lists and voting about them. > > > > Abso-freakin-lutely! :) > > > > > > > > The Pharo team did marvelous job, I assume with a lot of investment of > > > their personal time and energy. They also did quite good job at > > > setting their targets since they already managed at transforming huge > > > but sometimes hectic Squeak core into consistent development product. > > > > > > The way things currently work nicely reflect this, you can freely > > > float your ideas on the mailing list, but do not expect that someone > > > else should do it just because of that. But the better the idea is, > > > and the larger your contribution to Pharo is, chances of it being > > > implemented will rise. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves, and do it for > > > yourself. If that is too complicated, consider doing something else > > > simpler but usefull. > > > > > > > I am always discussing ideas before going to implement them. > > And for things i do, if i not sure if i doing the best way, or there > > are multiple 'nice' > > ways to solve the problem, i asking people, what they prefer. > > In that way people staying in course of what i do, and sometimes could > > give an advice or help by > > other means. > > But i don't expecting much, because we all busy with own agendas. > > > > > rush > > > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > > > > > > >

Dec. 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Money AND Feature requests

by Geoffroy Couprie

Hello, On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 10:20 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > On Dec 10, 2010, at 11:00 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > >> Thinking again about this idea of voting system for features we would like to see in Pharo. >> >> I won't pay 10 euros / month for someone to develop full time on Pharo on what I do not control (may not be the best words to explain my feelings :) >> >> But I'm ready to give 30 to 50 euros to raise money to develop the most wanted feature from a voting system. This give more visibility. >> >> It's easier to make a one shot donation than give XXeuros/month. > > Good! > Tell us what architecture we can use for that. I should find some time to build a association of loi 1901 and get a paypal account for pharo. > You should take a look at Flattr for donations. Also, in case some want to donate for specific feature, there are crowdfunding solutions like kickstarter. > > >> >> So one way to achieve this is to set up a voting system AND associated raising money system to develop the most wanted feature for one month. >> >> Another way is to pick the most wanted feature for Google Summer of code. > > Don't expect anything from it > >> With enough money one can stop his work for one month and develop exclusively for Pharo. If it's too hard to raise money for one month, we can try 15 days. I've seen that some great developers can do fantastic stuff in 15 days when he loves it :) >> >> Laurent Laffont >> >> On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On 10 December 2010 13:32, Davorin Rusevljan >> <davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Alan Rodas <alanrodas(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but what >> >> about a forum where the ideas are published. >> >> Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would like to >> >> contribute may comment there. What it may be interesting is that the whole >> >> discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep track of >> >> old discussions and the state of a feature. >> >> If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement something by >> >> your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on ideas, >> >> maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on >> >> it together. A forum allows for contacting people, and sharing, and, in that >> >> way, maybe the community will grow (Some developers feel they can do >> >> something because they don't have the time to do it by their own, or they >> >> don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the same >> >> goals.) >> >> >> >> >> >> Is just a thought. >> >> If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. >> > >> > Well, those are all nice thoughts. I am also relatively new to Pharo >> > though, I am with Smalltalk for quite a long time. In my humble >> > opinion, while both are always nice to have, at this stage Pharo, much >> > needs more hands willing to do the work, than hands filling the wish >> > lists and voting about them. >> >> Abso-freakin-lutely! :) >> >> > >> > The Pharo team did marvelous job, I assume with a lot of investment of >> > their personal time and energy. They also did quite good job at >> > setting their targets since they already managed at transforming huge >> > but sometimes hectic Squeak core into consistent development product. >> > >> > The way things currently work nicely reflect this, you can freely >> > float your ideas on the mailing list, but do not expect that someone >> > else should do it just because of that. But the better the idea is, >> > and the larger your contribution to Pharo is, chances of it being >> > implemented will rise. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves, and do it for >> > yourself. If that is too complicated, consider doing something else >> > simpler but usefull. >> > >> >> I am always discussing ideas before going to implement them. >> And for things i do, if i not sure if i doing the best way, or there >> are multiple 'nice' >> ways to solve the problem, i asking people, what they prefer. >> In that way people staying in course of what i do, and sometimes could >> give an advice or help by >> other means. >> But i don't expecting much, because we all busy with own agendas. >> >> > rush >> > http://www.cloud208.com/ >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> >> > > >

Dec. 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Money AND Feature requests

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Dec 10, 2010, at 11:00 PM, laurent laffont wrote: > Thinking again about this idea of voting system for features we would like to see in Pharo. > > I won't pay 10 euros / month for someone to develop full time on Pharo on what I do not control (may not be the best words to explain my feelings :) > > But I'm ready to give 30 to 50 euros to raise money to develop the most wanted feature from a voting system. This give more visibility. > > It's easier to make a one shot donation than give XXeuros/month. Good! Tell us what architecture we can use for that. I should find some time to build a association of loi 1901 and get a paypal account for pharo. > > So one way to achieve this is to set up a voting system AND associated raising money system to develop the most wanted feature for one month. > > Another way is to pick the most wanted feature for Google Summer of code. Don't expect anything from it > With enough money one can stop his work for one month and develop exclusively for Pharo. If it's too hard to raise money for one month, we can try 15 days. I've seen that some great developers can do fantastic stuff in 15 days when he loves it :) > > Laurent Laffont > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 10 December 2010 13:32, Davorin Rusevljan > <davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Alan Rodas <alanrodas(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but what > >> about a forum where the ideas are published. > >> Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would like to > >> contribute may comment there. What it may be interesting is that the whole > >> discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep track of > >> old discussions and the state of a feature. > >> If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement something by > >> your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on ideas, > >> maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on > >> it together. A forum allows for contacting people, and sharing, and, in that > >> way, maybe the community will grow (Some developers feel they can do > >> something because they don't have the time to do it by their own, or they > >> don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the same > >> goals.) > >> > >> > >> Is just a thought. > >> If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. > > > > Well, those are all nice thoughts. I am also relatively new to Pharo > > though, I am with Smalltalk for quite a long time. In my humble > > opinion, while both are always nice to have, at this stage Pharo, much > > needs more hands willing to do the work, than hands filling the wish > > lists and voting about them. > > Abso-freakin-lutely! :) > > > > > The Pharo team did marvelous job, I assume with a lot of investment of > > their personal time and energy. They also did quite good job at > > setting their targets since they already managed at transforming huge > > but sometimes hectic Squeak core into consistent development product. > > > > The way things currently work nicely reflect this, you can freely > > float your ideas on the mailing list, but do not expect that someone > > else should do it just because of that. But the better the idea is, > > and the larger your contribution to Pharo is, chances of it being > > implemented will rise. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves, and do it for > > yourself. If that is too complicated, consider doing something else > > simpler but usefull. > > > > I am always discussing ideas before going to implement them. > And for things i do, if i not sure if i doing the best way, or there > are multiple 'nice' > ways to solve the problem, i asking people, what they prefer. > In that way people staying in course of what i do, and sometimes could > give an advice or help by > other means. > But i don't expecting much, because we all busy with own agendas. > > > rush > > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >

Dec. 11, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Money AND Feature requests

by laurent laffont

Thinking again about this idea of voting system for features we would like to see in Pharo. I won't pay 10 euros / month for someone to develop full time on Pharo on what I do not control (may not be the best words to explain my feelings :) But I'm ready to give 30 to 50 euros to raise money to develop the most wanted feature from a voting system. This give more visibility. It's easier to make a one shot donation than give XXeuros/month. So one way to achieve this is to set up a voting system AND associated raising money system to develop the most wanted feature for one month. Another way is to pick the most wanted feature for Google Summer of code. With enough money one can stop his work for one month and develop exclusively for Pharo. If it's too hard to raise money for one month, we can try 15 days. I've seen that some great developers can do fantastic stuff in 15 days when he loves it :) Laurent Laffont On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 10 December 2010 13:32, Davorin Rusevljan > <davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Alan Rodas <alanrodas(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but what > >> about a forum where the ideas are published. > >> Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would like > to > >> contribute may comment there. What it may be interesting is that the > whole > >> discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep > track of > >> old discussions and the state of a feature. > >> If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement something > by > >> your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on > ideas, > >> maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on > >> it together. A forum allows for contacting people, and sharing, and, in > that > >> way, maybe the community will grow (Some developers feel they can do > >> something because they don't have the time to do it by their own, or > they > >> don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the > same > >> goals.) > >> > >> > >> Is just a thought. > >> If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. > > > > Well, those are all nice thoughts. I am also relatively new to Pharo > > though, I am with Smalltalk for quite a long time. In my humble > > opinion, while both are always nice to have, at this stage Pharo, much > > needs more hands willing to do the work, than hands filling the wish > > lists and voting about them. > > Abso-freakin-lutely! :) > > > > > The Pharo team did marvelous job, I assume with a lot of investment of > > their personal time and energy. They also did quite good job at > > setting their targets since they already managed at transforming huge > > but sometimes hectic Squeak core into consistent development product. > > > > The way things currently work nicely reflect this, you can freely > > float your ideas on the mailing list, but do not expect that someone > > else should do it just because of that. But the better the idea is, > > and the larger your contribution to Pharo is, chances of it being > > implemented will rise. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves, and do it for > > yourself. If that is too complicated, consider doing something else > > simpler but usefull. > > > > I am always discussing ideas before going to implement them. > And for things i do, if i not sure if i doing the best way, or there > are multiple 'nice' > ways to solve the problem, i asking people, what they prefer. > In that way people staying in course of what i do, and sometimes could > give an advice or help by > other means. > But i don't expecting much, because we all busy with own agendas. > > > rush > > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > >

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Igor Stasenko

On 10 December 2010 13:32, Davorin Rusevljan <davorin.rusevljan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Alan Rodas <alanrodas(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but what >> about a forum where the ideas are published. >> Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would like to >> contribute may comment there. What it may beÂ interestingÂ is that the whole >> discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep track of >> old discussions and the state of a feature. >> If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement something by >> your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on ideas, >> maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on >> itÂ together. A forum allows forÂ contactingÂ people, and sharing, and, in that >> way, maybe the community will grow (SomeÂ developers feel they can do >> somethingÂ becauseÂ they don't have the time to do it by their own, or they >> don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the same >> goals.) >> >> >> Is just a thought. >> If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. > > Well, those are all nice thoughts. I am also relatively new to Pharo > though, I am with Smalltalk for quite a long time. In my humble > opinion, while both are always nice to have, at this stage Pharo, much > needs more hands willing to do the work, than hands filling the wish > lists and voting about them. Abso-freakin-lutely! :) > > The Pharo team did marvelous job, I assume with a lot of investment of > their personal time and energy. They also did quite good job at > setting their targets since they already managed at transforming huge > but sometimes hectic Squeak core into consistent development product. > > The way things currently work nicely reflect this, you can freely > float your ideas on the mailing list, but do not expect that someone > else should do it just because of that. But the better the idea is, > and the larger your contribution to Pharo is, chances of it being > implemented will rise. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves, and do it for > yourself. If that is too complicated, consider doing something else > simpler but usefull. > I am always discussing ideas before going to implement them. And for things i do, if i not sure if i doing the best way, or there are multiple 'nice' ways to solve the problem, i asking people, what they prefer. In that way people staying in course of what i do, and sometimes could give an advice or help by other means. But i don't expecting much, because we all busy with own agendas. > rush > http://www.cloud208.com/ -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Davorin Rusevljan

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Alan Rodas <alanrodas(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but what > about a forum where the ideas are published. > Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would like to > contribute may comment there. What it may beÂ interestingÂ is that the whole > discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep track of > old discussions and the state of a feature. > If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement something by > your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on ideas, > maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on > itÂ together. A forum allows forÂ contactingÂ people, and sharing, and, in that > way, maybe the community will grow (SomeÂ developers feel they can do > somethingÂ becauseÂ they don't have the time to do it by their own, or they > don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the same > goals.) > > > Is just a thought. > If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. Well, those are all nice thoughts. I am also relatively new to Pharo though, I am with Smalltalk for quite a long time. In my humble opinion, while both are always nice to have, at this stage Pharo, much needs more hands willing to do the work, than hands filling the wish lists and voting about them. The Pharo team did marvelous job, I assume with a lot of investment of their personal time and energy. They also did quite good job at setting their targets since they already managed at transforming huge but sometimes hectic Squeak core into consistent development product. The way things currently work nicely reflect this, you can freely float your ideas on the mailing list, but do not expect that someone else should do it just because of that. But the better the idea is, and the larger your contribution to Pharo is, chances of it being implemented will rise. Otherwise, roll up your sleeves, and do it for yourself. If that is too complicated, consider doing something else simpler but usefull. rush http://www.cloud208.com/

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Stanislav Paskalev

There is such a forum and it's mirrored / synced to these mailing lists. See http://forum.world.st/ Stanislav Paskalev On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Alan Rodas <alanrodas(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but what > about a forum where the ideas are published. > Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would like to > contribute may comment there. What it may beÂ interestingÂ is that the whole > discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep track of > old discussions and the state of a feature. > If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement something by > your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on ideas, > maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on > itÂ together. A forum allows forÂ contactingÂ people, and sharing, and, in that > way, maybe the community will grow (SomeÂ developers feel they can do > somethingÂ becauseÂ they don't have the time to do it by their own, or they > don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the same > goals.) > > > Is just a thought. > If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. > > > Cheers > -- > Alan Rodas Bonjour

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Alan Rodas

I'm relatively new to Pharo, maybe this has been tried before, but what about a forum where the ideas are published. Each idea could be a thread in the forum, and the people that would like to contribute may comment there. What it may be interesting is that the whole discussion about an idea could live in the thread, and you can keep track of old discussions and the state of a feature. If you keep your ideas for yourself, and you cannot implement something by your own, that idea will die there. If you allow people to comment on ideas, maybe two or more people have the same, and they can start working on it together. A forum allows for contacting people, and sharing, and, in that way, maybe the community will grow (Some developers feel they can do something because they don't have the time to do it by their own, or they don't have the skills, but they can help to a dev team that share the same goals.) Is just a thought. If you did it before and didn't work, my apologies. Cheers -- Alan Rodas Bonjour

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Marcin Tustin

It might be nice to keep track of who says they are interested in having a feature, so whoever wants to take the lead on implementation knows who to ask to pitch in. On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Geert Claes <geert.wl.claes(a)gmail.com>wrote: > > > James Ashley wrote: > > > > ... > > As a complete smalltalk n00b, I just don't have a dog in this "fight." > > Here's the summary of what I've seen in this thread... > > > > Looking in from the outside, I can see that both of you are correct. > This > > is open source's biggest strength and its greatest weakness. > > > > This is not a fight, it's just a very passionate discussion ... mind you, > English is not the first language for a lot people here and even though > things may get slightly misconstrued and discussions do sometimes appear to > be intense, I bet they'll still gladly have a beer together :) > > To summarize: > - The current list of "ideas to implement" lives here: > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/IdeasToImplement > - Does the list of ideas have a voting system? No. Why? There is no way > to ensure ideas will be implemented according to the votes. > - How do we know which ideas are popular? Ideas are discussed on the > mailing list. > - Can anyone suggest new ideas? Abso-freakin-lutely! > > So I guess the only thing that may need to be elaborated a bit further is > how an idea that has been discussed on the mailing list (e.g. native > windows) will make its way to the list of "ideas to implement" and everyone > can happily look forward to start the weekend with a beer in hand and smile > on their face :) > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/Feature-requests-tp3077333p3081581.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- Marcin Tustin Mobile: 07773787105

Dec. 10, 2010