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Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Jimmie Houchin

On 5/5/2011 12:21 PM, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 5 May 2011 18:57, Jimmie Houchin<jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: [Big Snip] > Well said. > Except that i'm not sharing your view that its hard to interface with > foreign libraries. > Its not hard at all. Of course to connect two different worlds, you > need to have knowledge > in both of them. But this requirement not a bit different when you > take any other pair of languages and try to > connect them. Thanks, I have no knowledge of either the knowledge or the challenges involved in using external libraries in Pharo or Squeak. I have no knowledge of FFI/Alien or using C/C++/C# or compilers. However, this is my experience in Python. Navigate to the directory containing the script makepy.py or if it is a part of your Python's sys.path, execute the script. It generates a Python module which is on It pops up a dialogue which prompts you to select the library you wish to interface. Then to use in a script simply import Dispatch self.mylib = Dispatch("MyLibrary") This will expose all the functionality of the library. All provided by the python win32 extensions. It was very successful for my needs. I do not know what limitations it may or may not have. Very easy for non-expert programmers. I would love this level of ability to interface outside libraries in Squeak. But I have no idea the effort required to automate the generation of a class or classes which interface the external library. In my particular instance this is obviously for a Windows library. I don't know if Python has anything comparable for Linux or OSX. In this particular instance, Python was enabling for me, for which I am grateful. Otherwise I might be stuck writing my app in VisualBasic. But despite my gratefulness, I spend as little time in Python as possible. Despite Python not requiring a compiler, I really hate going to an editor and writing code. Then to an interpreter to run code. Hit my stacktrace. Go back to the editor. Reload the module in the interpreter and run again, and if that doesn't succeed due to the reload not really reloading the new code, open in a new interpreter. Ugh!!! Where's my Smalltalk. Give my live object system. :) Jimmie

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Casimiro de Almeida Barreto

Good evening Roy. One thing that always amazes me a lot is that so many experienced solution providers (ie. people who develop solutions either to be sold as OTSCS or embedded as a more or less autonomous part of a bigger system) mind about if something is "mainstream" or something else. For several reasons extensively discussed in this forum, smalltalk didn't "hit the market" like java did. It has nothing to do regarding to smalltalk qualities or lack of them. It has to do with good marketing vs. bad marketing, shorter learning curve for things like java and the fact that java was more apt to be used in personal computers of the 1990ies. Besides that, large part of smalltalk community at that time had the "king inside their bellies" and that just made the technology less attractive to outsiders (look: 1990ies language wars). Smalltalk is a really nice technology supporting fast development of complex (and performative) solutions and demanding much smaller teams to do so. It has evident advantages in the fields of code testing, profiling, maintenance and reuse. Most common families of smalltalk like pharo/squeak/Cincom VW/ are cross platform (Windows, Linux, OS X, iOS). Important families of smalltalk are open source (pharo, squeak, gnu smalltalk and dedicated derivatives like OpenCobalt). Smalltak is far from dead. If you investigate you'll see that pharo (for instance) is supported by important universities (listed among 100 best universities in world). In recent years we have witnessed amazing things in smalltalk world. For reasons that can be summarized as immature product adoption in the 1990ies and ugly commercial practices by suppliers, smalltalk is not as popular as java or python. IMHO time will correct this situation. Now, if you want to deploy solutions you have no reason to fear smalltalk except by the fact that it's highly addictive: you start producing and do it fast and clean and just don't want to stop... but, like any d-dealer would say: "don't trust me, you just have to try it... just once... and look: first time is for free !!!" Ok, enough kidding: if you want to deploy solutions you'll see that for the same investment (time & material resources) you do more with smalltalk. You'll loose much less time debugging things, documenting things, figuring out what other people did before... you'll spend much less money in debuggers, profilers, testers, etc... You'll see that reusing and integrating things is just pleasant. And you'll be amazed by performance. That are my 2Â¢ CdAB

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

by Chris Muller

>> I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions: >> >> Â - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a >> one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the >> Pharo gods? > > The same tha squeak for changes that aren't accepted/belongs to/are too > specific to an application. You include them as an *mypackage extension > in some package of yours and then when the mcz is installed, the > extension is installed too. That is just monticello as always. I'm talking about an override not an extension. >> Â - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from >> external web-sites? > > Using doIts if necessary. Right, dropping down into straight load-script and doing it. Got it! :) >> Â - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external >> graphics, videos, XML or other resources? > > Idem. Often specific _versions_ of resources go with each specific version of an application. Now I am maintaining those separately, in separate places using separate tools. I want something to expand the metaphor of an object being "encapsulated behavior + state" into my deployment system, so it will be "encapsulated behaviors + resources". Thankfully, even Pharo 1.3 still supports .SAR files, but no nice GUI to load them, just the file-manager. :( >> Â - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an >> object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built >> using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)? > > Don't understand the example A better example. What if I just want something that strips my image down of lots of code and objects, without leaving any new code loaded? It's a rhetorical question, I already know the answer: Create a Metacello config to host only a load-script (doIt). But I wonder whether said doIt would be able to "unload itself" when it was done? Probably could. > I think it does those things, maybe a second look at the existings > configurations can clear a lot of doubts. The picture seems to be, as long as my app is all just "clean-loading MC packages", then I can use Metacello within its normal bounds. (OR, I could just use the standard "lighter-weight" SCM tools; Monticello + MonticelloConfigurations + Gofer). However, if an application requires anything additional: overrides, resources or special-configurations, then I drop down to the "ultimate flexbility" afforded by doIt's - which is just load-scripting. Even then, the resources are not encapsulated as I already said. SqueakMap is a repository that hosts load-scripts encasulated with or without resources. It's perfectly complimentary to all of the other tools. I'm exhausted of talking about this.. Regards, Chris

May 5, 2011

[Pharo-project] Preferred way of removing slice from Inbox

by laurent laffont

Hi, Once a SLICE is integrated in PharoCore, how do you remove it from PharoInbox ? Laurent

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Popularity of Smalltalk in Software Industry

by Toon Verwaest

> Yes, but it affects the way how you design your applications and frameworks. > In image-based setup you tend to do things in a way, that things > should be always available > at any moment (wanna create an instance of me? - feel free to do it). > > In C and other languages which having compile& run cycle it is > totally different. > Things are available for you not instantly, but only after you restart > everything from scratch, > reinitialize everything and then repeat exactly same steps to meet the > same point as before. > This is often tedious, time consuming and frustrating. > > And this difference in approaches leads to fatal flaws in design, like > on Windows OS, which requires you to reboot machine every time you > install new driver(s) Ok, I do agree on that. It's probably not an intrinsic flaw of the system, it just makes you think differently. However, suppose that C would have a REPL which gives you an inspector... then you'd already be more inclined to build systems like Smalltalk has. I don't say Smalltalk and its philosophy isn't great, I'm just saying that the image isn't a requirement. I'm sure that if someone would build a more flexible version of C that people would get used to it and want nothing else... even expect it. But whatever :)

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

>> The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific >> uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages >> integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package >> there but it wont belongs to there really. > > I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was > originally intended as a "problem". I was just getting the work done > to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side.. but why don't you have a pharo package in the magma repo? > >> This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with >> specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility >> repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their >> install procedures. That would be better. > > Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at > the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I > just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites. > > Question: When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"? If it's not > ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it? This is traceability and merge purpose. But I would not publish package to treated inbox if I would be you because we can remove everything one day You do not put your wallet in your trashcan don't you? > I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions: > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a > one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the > Pharo gods? - virgin sacrified on altar is the first step. - second step is to have one package name magma-pharo containing the extensions/changes How grease does it? how any monticello does it with any others? Moose Core is extended sometimes by 5 other packages and this is working perfectly (except for state) > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from > external web-sites? initialize methods? > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external > graphics, videos, XML or other resources? initialize methods? > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an > object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built > using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)? initialize methods? > These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package > management system". If Metacello could do all of these things, I > might be interested.. did you read the postLoadAction? Chris. Metacello scripts are object specs and to me this is just great because they are objects and with objects we can do a lot. Checking, transforming...... So of course hacking a little script is fast and Metacello requires some care but I can tell you that for us this is **hyper** important (and not just as some person may think because we like complex stuff - because this is plain wrong) because Metacello are first class ***objects*** scripts. Now you can not look at it too. I wrote with dale 35 pages documentation and I should do another pass. I think that what Dale is doing is **EXTREMELY** important to manage the complexity. When we did 3.9 and used MC for the first time we were really aware that packages wihtout a package management system could kill the system (which version of x is working with k kind of nightmare) and metacello answer that question and support different development process. Stef

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Personalized systems with Treated

by Miguel CobÃ¡

El jue, 05-05-2011 a las 13:02 -0500, Chris Muller escribiÃ³: > Well, I'm 0-2 so far from the replies understanding the point of my > story.. Oh well. > > > The problem with those other repositories is that they are for specific > > uses, as Stef said in other post, the Treated repository is for packages > > integrated in current Pharo. So, of course you could post some package > > there but it wont belongs to there really. > > I don't see getting more use out of something than for what it was > originally intended as a "problem". I was just getting the work done > to quell the complaining for Magma coming from that side.. > > > This workaround it could be better implemented if the package with > > specific changes will be pushed to some dedicated compatibility > > repository where everyone can push every package and use it in their > > install procedures. That would be better. > > Sure, that could be an incremental step but I wasn't in a position at > the time to go lobbying to the Pharo group for a new repository; I > just needed to get Magma done for Pharo'ites. > > Question: When is anything in "Treated" ever "consumed"? If it's not > ever consumed, it's wasting space, so why not delete it? For the same reason that the Treated repository from Squeak isn't deleted, for historical references. That doesn't means that we should put there what one wants. (well, not that rude, just that as is so easy to create our own repo, isn't well seen if we put packages in others' repos) > > > Now, lets remember that for Pharo at lease, backwards compatibility is a > > "great to have" feature not a "must have at all means" feature. So if > > Actually that describes Squeak's philosophy; they just do it in a > slower, more-incremental nature. > > > Other thing, we really don't like changesets or gofer scripts for > > installing anything on Pharo (even if we really like gofer). Why? > > Because they aren't a package management system. > > Exactly; philosophical instead of practical.. More than philosophical I think. A script can reflect over itself A metacello configuration class can. Text vs class. Unless you put a parser to work, that is extra work. > > >The end result could be the same: the packages are installed in the system, that is granted, but > > the capability of Metacello of declaring which other configurations it > > depends on and the one of querying the configuration to see the full > > list of packages to be installed is something that no gofer script, > > installer script or SqueakMap feature can handle right now without > > downloading everything to check. > > Not true. SqueakMap load scripts specify which other prerequisite > configurations are required and merges them, as needed, from SqueakMap > itself. See Magma or Maui as an example. Those prerequisite configs > can be browsed before loading, if desired. Yes, I saw the scripts for Magma and I see check for specific classes to test if they exist in the image (if they are installed): [Smalltalk at: #MagmaTestCase] ifFalse: [ "install other mcz" ] > > I'm more interested to know the answers to these questions: > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires a > one-line change to a core system method that is not acceptable to the > Pharo gods? The same tha squeak for changes that aren't accepted/belongs to/are too specific to an application. You include them as an *mypackage extension in some package of yours and then when the mcz is installed, the extension is installed too. That is just monticello as always. > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that loads code from > external web-sites? Using doIts if necessary. Or specifying some other repo to fetch mcz things from. A metacello configuration can have any nnumber of origin repositories to fetch mcz from and then install them in the image. For resources like images and so, the doIts can have HTTPClient to download and serialize to the image as needed. Smalltalk at the point of your fingers. > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires external > graphics, videos, XML or other resources? Idem. > > - How does one deploy an application on Pharo that requires an > object-graph to be loaded internally into the image that was pre-built > using another tool (e.g., NOT generated via code)? Don't understand the example But for loading external data that is in a suitable form to load you can use a postLoad doit to open (or download the data) and then bring it into the image, creating objects on the fly. You can load binary data if you want (SIXX, whatever) or text data (XML,JSON,etc) at the end is smalltalk in a doIt doing the work. > > These questions are much more important to me than "it isn't a package > management system". If Metacello could do all of these things, I > might be interested.. I think it does those things, maybe a second look at the existings configurations can clear a lot of doubts. I have a doubt. the metacello configuration can have groups that install specific mcz of the full list of mcz that Seaside have to install just what you need. How will that be made with scripts and SqueakMap? Regards > > Regards, > Chris -- Miguel CobÃ¡ http://twitter.com/MiguelCobaMtz http://miguel.leugim.com.mx

May 5, 2011

[Pharo-project] [COTDC] 60 - DirectoryURI

by laurent laffont

Today: DirectoryURI Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment Rules: #1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment will be integrated with name of the author(s). #2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it. Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest Laurent

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] Making cr to autocomplete as well as tab (in Pharo 1.3)

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

yes I asked romain to bind the auto complete to enter and we removed it. Now probably having one setting would be good. Stef On May 5, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: > Hi, > > This is not great at all. Please read this before going forward. > > We had this in OCompletion before and then it got changed to not use CR for a reason. The problem is when using fluent APIs that are best read when written on multiple lines. For example, suppose that I want to type something like this in Glamour: > > ... > a tree > display: [ ... ] > > After typing "a tree", the first proposed item is "treeLayout" (see the attached picture). If I press enter to go to the next line "tree" is replaced with "treeLayout" and this is not the behavior I want. > > The problem is that CR has a useful meaning when typing a piece of text and this makes it not good as a completion character. Tab on the other hand, is only used in Smalltalk at the beginning of an empty line so there is no danger of overloading its functionality in the middle of a text. > > > Now, if you insist, I still believe there is a place for CR. Completion has two modes: > 1. one in which I write and the completion offers me something, and > 2. one in which I am after I press the down arrow to select some completion item. > > For 1. you do not want to have CR as a completion character. For 2. it is probably ok because you enter explicitly in a temporary mode and thus you are not typing anymore and this will not induce the conflict. > > Cheers, > Doru > > > <example-glamour-fluent-api.png> > > > > On 5 May 2011, at 17:37, Thierry Lebourque wrote: > >> That is really great! >> Many thanks >> >> 2011/5/5 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com>: >>> Hi, i just found inconvenient that for autocompletion i should press >>> tab all the time >>> while i tend to always hit enter, which instead of pasting suggestion, >>> inserts cr into text. >>> >>> So i hacked a lil piece of code to make autocompletion to insert >>> suggested text when you pressing either tab or cr >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >>> >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with." >

May 5, 2011

Re: [Pharo-project] [COTDC] 59 - HierarchicalURI

by laurent laffont

Thanks CÃ©drick. May be the right comment is: See URI ? Laurent. On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:11 PM, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler <cdrick65(a)gmail.com> wrote: > part taken from URI class comment: > > "A hierarchical URI is either an absolute URI whose scheme-specific part > begins with a slash character, or a relative URI, that is, a URI that does > not specify a scheme. Some examples of hierarchical URIs are: > > http://www.pharo-project.org/home > file:///~/calendar > > A hierarchical URI is subject to further parsing according to the syntax > [scheme:][//authority][path][?query][#fragment] > where the characters :, /, ?, and # stand for themselves. The > scheme-specific part of a hierarchical URI consists of the characters > between the scheme and fragment parts. > > The authority part of a hierarchical URI is, if specified, either > server-based or registry-based. A server-based authority parses according to > the syntax > [user-info@]host[:port] > where the characters @ and : stand for themselves. Nearly all URI schemes > currently in use are server-based. An authority part that does not parse in > this way is considered to be registry-based. > > The path component of a hierarchical URI is itself said to be absolute if > it begins with a slash character ('/'); otherwise it is relative. The path > of a hierarchical URI that is either absolute or specifies an authority is > always absolute." > > > Le 4 mai 2011 Ã 21:20, laurent laffont a Ã©crit : > > Today: HierarchicalURI > > > Comment Of The Day Contest - One Day One Comment > Rules: > #1: Each day a not commented class is elected. Each day the best comment > will be integrated with name of the author(s). > #2: If you cannot comment it, deprecate it. > Results: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/CommentOfTheDayContest > > Laurent > > >

May 5, 2011