March 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Bloc] buildAthensPaintOn: vs asAthensPaintOn:

by stepharo

hi alex why do you rename asAthensPaintOn: into buildAthensPaintOn: Stef

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by stepharo

People having problems to be solved using numqi ou abacus can you register to the mailing list and that we can continue working there? And collecting your needs? Stef Le 2/3/16 14:17, stepharo a Ã©crit : > Hi guys > > I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions > with Serge Stinckwich. > Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big > thanks*** Didier. > > We would like to do several things: > > - Work on "Hows to" > The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us > and the math is too large :) > so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..." > - histomgram (simple, based on distribution) > > - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library > This morning we started to implement a > ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the > objects available in SciPharo. > Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that > we can plug other distribution for having > controlled random number. > > - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this > mail :) > Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude > So tell us :) > > Hernan ?? > Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution? > Vincent: covariance? CPA? > Philippe: times series > Serge R frames? > Sami: Better random number and various distributions? > > - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in > September with a recording session. > Either at IRD Bondy or Lille. > > - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) > with a better cover and title :) > > > Stef >

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by stepharo

Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk - First because we make it to free us from the past. - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team" - "smalltalk oh it does not scale" - "I cannot edit my code with emacs" - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)" - I did not get how you work in team - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn" - "Smalltalk is monolithic" - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas etre si super que cela...." I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less. So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history. You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water. > left blank on purpose > > > > Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : >> Stef, >> >> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in >>> the same. >>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? >>> Do you think that people do not know how to count? >>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than >>> python, java, c#, lua, ... >>> >>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving >>> our language and do node.js. >>> Seriously. >>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I >>> can tell you. >>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be >>> a good opportunity. >>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and >>> visibility of our system >>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do >>> something. >>> Afterall I may be wrong. >>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to >>> stay with old friends >>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an >>> asshole that does not want to >>> promote smalltalk. >> >> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk >> name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I >> want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as >> the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why >> don't you address my points about older programming languages whose >> names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? >> >> >> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I >> admire and respect your efforts, StÃ©phane, in developing, organizing >> and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep >> quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. >> And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. >> >> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning >> are important, because to understand each other we should call a >> spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this >> thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away >> from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. >> >>> Stef >>> >>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. >>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library? >>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another >>>>> split? >>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in >>>> peace. Yes this looks like a >>>> smart move. >>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking >>>> about ruby and swift) >>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of >>>> object-oriented programming!! >>>> >>>> >>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the >>>> community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses >>>> Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or >>>> massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete >>>> lack of gratitude. >>>> >>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of >>>> low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no >>>> one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. >>>> >>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate >>>> and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not >>>> hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive >>>> materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible >>>> heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. >>>> >>>> Offended, >>>> Eliot >>> >

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Who is using Pharo Launcher and for what

by stepharo

Hi laurent do you have a little story (two paragraphs about it?) Stef Le 4/3/16 10:18, Laurent a Ã©crit : > Hi, > > PharoLauncher is my main entry point for creating / managing / > launching Pharo images. I work at AFI and use Pharo for application > monitoring & Redmine bug tracker analysis. > > Laurent > > Le sam. 20 fÃ©vr. 2016 Ã 11:49, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)inria.fr> > a Ã©crit : >> For my CV, I need to know who is using the stuff I'm doing. If you >> use the Pharo Launcher, could you please tell me in which context >> (e.g., which company, open-source project) and what you use it for >> (e.g., download from CI, standard Pharo)? I don't need long >> paragraphs, just give me the keywords please. Thanks >> -- >> Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Success is the >> ability to go from one failure to another without losing enthusiasm." >> --Winston Churchill

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by stepharo

left blank on purpose Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : > Stef, > > On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr > <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: > >> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in >> the same. >> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? >> Do you think that people do not know how to count? >> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than >> python, java, c#, lua, ... >> >> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our >> language and do node.js. >> Seriously. >> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I >> can tell you. >> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be >> a good opportunity. >> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and >> visibility of our system >> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do >> something. >> Afterall I may be wrong. >> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to >> stay with old friends >> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an >> asshole that does not want to >> promote smalltalk. > > I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk > name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want > to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the > equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you > address my points about older programming languages whose > names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? > > > I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I > admire and respect your efforts, StÃ©phane, in developing, organizing > and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep > quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. > And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. > > And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are > important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a > spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing > called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. > Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. > >> Stef >> >> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr >>> <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. >>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library? >>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another >>>> split? >>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in >>> peace. Yes this looks like a >>> smart move. >>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking >>> about ruby and swift) >>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented >>> programming!! >>> >>> >>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the >>> community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses >>> Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or >>> massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete >>> lack of gratitude. >>> >>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of >>> low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no >>> one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. >>> >>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and >>> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. >>> Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why >>> anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive >>> influence is beyond me. >>> >>> Offended, >>> Eliot >>

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] accepting in the GTPanel does not save the modified code

by stepharo

Ok I understand - the problem is that the code should then stay to same on accept - or may be the accept should just raise a warning Because right now we can modify it and this is ok because we can execute an expression so this is when do accept that we should notify the user. Stef Le 5/3/16 18:57, Tudor Girba a Ã©crit : > Indeed, this pane is meant to be read-only. > > We would have to work on it to make it accept code. > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:44 PM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >> >> Hi >> >> I was fixing all the return: Point and other in bloc using GTSpotter >> but it does not work since accepting in the code panel does not recompile the code. >> >> Stef >> > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > www.feenk.com > > "Problem solving efficiency grows with the abstractness level of problem understanding." > > > > > >

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Starting to add class comment and test on BlElements

by stepharo

+1 Stef Le 5/3/16 18:59, Aliaksei Syrel a Ã©crit : > Documentation != checking of contract. > All assertions can be removed from code easily with simple script when > bloc will be released (or another solution will be found). Assertions > really slowdown everything. > Until version 1.0 bloc will have assertion and duplication in > documentation. > > Cheers, > Alex

March 6, 2016

[Bloc] BlShapeResizing -> BlShapeResizer

by stepharo

Hi blockers I would like to rename BlShapeResizing into BlShapeResizer Object subclass: #BlShapeResizing instanceVariableNames: '' classVariableNames: '' package: 'Bloc-Core-!Core-Path' I hope this is ok for you. Stef

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by Jimmie Houchin

On 03/05/2016 08:33 PM, Eliot Miranda wrote: > Jimmie, > >>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote: >>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Stef, >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. >>>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? >>>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count? >>>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than >>>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ... >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. >>>>>> Seriously. >>>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. >>>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. >>>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system >>>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. >>>>>> Afterall I may be wrong. >>>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends >>>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to >>>>>> promote smalltalk. >>>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, StÃ©phane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. >>>>> >>>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. >>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that. >>>> >>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW). >>>> >>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason. >>>> >>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea: >>>> >>>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo >>>> >>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents. >>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, >>> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So >>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and >>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, >>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5". >>> >>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk >>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the >>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk >>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might >>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe >>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the >>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone >>> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its >>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", >>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that >>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" >>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi >>> communities.) >>> >>> cheers -ben >> I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the name of Smalltalk. >> >> Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be. > AFAIA no one has trademarked Smalltalk, only Smalltalk-80. > > The situation seems to me analogous to programming languages being likened to vehicles, the dynamic languages to flying vehicles, Smalltalk to jet plane and Pharo to an Airbus 380. There is no way anyone is going to prevent someone calling a jet plane a jet plane. No one other than Airbus can call a plant they produce an Airbus. It dies not make sense to say an Airbus 380 is not a jet plane. I personally am okay with that understanding. As I said, I am pro-Smalltalk. I would be thrilled with Pharo associating itself with Smalltalk as a Smalltalk. I like Smalltalk. :) I am proud of the Smalltalk heritage and ancestry. However, like with Smalltalk. I do not have a say with Pharo either. :) Shalom. Jimmie

March 6, 2016

Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

by Eliot Miranda

Jimmie, >> On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote: >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: >>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Stef, >>>> >>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. >>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? >>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count? >>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than >>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ... >>>>> >>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. >>>>> Seriously. >>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. >>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. >>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system >>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. >>>>> Afterall I may be wrong. >>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends >>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to >>>>> promote smalltalk. >>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? >>>> >>>> >>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, StÃ©phane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. >>>> >>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. >>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that. >>> >>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW). >>> >>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason. >>> >>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea: >>> >>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo >>> >>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents. >> >> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, >> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So >> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and >> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, >> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5". >> >> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk >> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the >> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk >> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might >> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe >> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the >> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone >> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its >> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", >> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that >> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" >> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi >> communities.) >> >> cheers -ben > > I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the name of Smalltalk. > > Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be. AFAIA no one has trademarked Smalltalk, only Smalltalk-80. The situation seems to me analogous to programming languages being likened to vehicles, the dynamic languages to flying vehicles, Smalltalk to jet plane and Pharo to an Airbus 380. There is no way anyone is going to prevent someone calling a jet plane a jet plane. No one other than Airbus can call a plant they produce an Airbus. It dies not make sense to say an Airbus 380 is not a jet plane. > Just one opinion of someone who is both pro-Smalltalk and pro-Pharo. And strongly understands words have meaning. > > Shalom. > > Jimmie > > >

March 6, 2016