March 2014 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Dale Henrichs

Oh I certainly don't think that FileTree is the best possible way ... as it stands FileTree functions as a bridge that allows folks to migrate towards using git/mercurial/svn ... once a beach head in the git/mercurial/svn world is established it is a good time to re-evaluate what is important... tools integration is probably much more important than the implementation detail of what the packages look like on disk ... but that's just my opinion:) Personally when I am working, the method is the unit of functionality that is important ... so for me the history of method is important information and when I identify a change that is "interesting" i then may want to see all of the other things that changed when that method was changed ... the current implementation of FileTree makes this kind of spelunking possible ... but it takes tools to bring this to reality ... Are there other ways to make this a reality? ... I'm almost certain that there are ... but perhaps this functionality is only important to me ... or perhaps there are better ways of looking at the whole problem ... or ??? I have a vision for where FileTree and tools built upon it are headed but I won't claim that my vision "the one true way"... I've said this about Metacello for years: "I can hardly wait until someone implements a replacement for Metacello" ... and I feel the same way about FileTree:) I encourage other folks to implement their own visions... This is evolution in action ... stand on the shoulders of FileTree and build something better ... stand on the shoulders of git and build something better ... Dale On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>wrote: > Just to rephase myself: The fact we're discussing how to store things > in git is a HUGE advance in mindset, it means we'll end up versioning > on top of it. > > I said: "That means we'll end up doing it the best possible way." > > Maybe FileTree is the best possible way that considers all the > constraints and requirements you mention :) > > When you built FileTree/Cypress you were an outlier (in the Smalltalk > realm), now it's mainstream. ;-) > > Regards! > > > -- > Esteban > > > 2014-03-06 20:24 GMT-03:00 Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com > >: > > When you invent the next format, keep in mind that cross-platform source > > code sharing is something to consider as well ... It's always harder to > make > > cross-platform code and some compromises have to be made to accommodate > > multiple dialects ... > > > > Also consider that with FileTree we are only on the first step of Make it > > work, Make it right, Make it fast ... > > > > Put your energy into implementations not arguments:) > > > > Dale > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo < > emaringolo(a)gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> I'm coming late to this, but Dolphin's VCS format has one file per > package > >> and "extensions", and one file per class (instance and metaclass). > >> > >> We succesfuly used that approach with git for more than a year. I know > >> Object Arts did the same but backed by MS VCS (sourcesafe). > >> > >> It is good that we're discussing HOW to version everything with an > >> external file based VCS. That means we'll end up doing it the best > possible > >> way. > >> > >> Regards. > >> > >> El mar 6, 2014 7:51 PM, "Jan Vrany" <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> escribiÃ³: > >> > >>> On 06/03/14 22:34, Dale Henrichs wrote: > >>>> > >>>> My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of > >>>> git vs. mercurial! > >>> > >>> > >>> Lucky you, I still have to wait for this to happen :-) > >>> > >>> Let's make myself clear, +1 was not because of mercurial, > >>> but because of class-per-file on-disk layout. > >>> > >>> Jan > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! > >>>> > >>>> Dale > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz > >>>> <mailto:jan.vrany@fit.cvut.cz>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file > >>>> based, above > >>>> mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses > are > >>>> in > >>>> Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that > >>>> organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within > >>>> protocols, > >>>> classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find > >>>> mercurial > >>>> diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific > command-line > >>>> or GUI > >>>> tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, > >>>> IMNSHO. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> +1. > >>>> In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. > >>>> > >>>> Jan > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > > > >

March 7, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Esteban A. Maringolo

Just to rephase myself: The fact we're discussing how to store things in git is a HUGE advance in mindset, it means we'll end up versioning on top of it. I said: "That means we'll end up doing it the best possible way." Maybe FileTree is the best possible way that considers all the constraints and requirements you mention :) When you built FileTree/Cypress you were an outlier (in the Smalltalk realm), now it's mainstream. ;-) Regards! -- Esteban 2014-03-06 20:24 GMT-03:00 Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com>: > When you invent the next format, keep in mind that cross-platform source > code sharing is something to consider as well ... It's always harder to make > cross-platform code and some compromises have to be made to accommodate > multiple dialects ... > > Also consider that with FileTree we are only on the first step of Make it > work, Make it right, Make it fast ... > > Put your energy into implementations not arguments:) > > Dale > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> I'm coming late to this, but Dolphin's VCS format has one file per package >> and "extensions", and one file per class (instance and metaclass). >> >> We succesfuly used that approach with git for more than a year. I know >> Object Arts did the same but backed by MS VCS (sourcesafe). >> >> It is good that we're discussing HOW to version everything with an >> external file based VCS. That means we'll end up doing it the best possible >> way. >> >> Regards. >> >> El mar 6, 2014 7:51 PM, "Jan Vrany" <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> escribiÃ³: >> >>> On 06/03/14 22:34, Dale Henrichs wrote: >>>> >>>> My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of >>>> git vs. mercurial! >>> >>> >>> Lucky you, I still have to wait for this to happen :-) >>> >>> Let's make myself clear, +1 was not because of mercurial, >>> but because of class-per-file on-disk layout. >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! >>>> >>>> Dale >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz >>>> <mailto:jan.vrany@fit.cvut.cz>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file >>>> based, above >>>> mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are >>>> in >>>> Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that >>>> organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within >>>> protocols, >>>> classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find >>>> mercurial >>>> diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line >>>> or GUI >>>> tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, >>>> IMNSHO. >>>> >>>> >>>> +1. >>>> In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. >>>> >>>> Jan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >

March 7, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by phil＠highoctane.be

This was mentioned a while ago but... As there is not only Smalltalk code in today's projects, Git is nice. And, file per method or not, at this point, we have code in Git and it shows, and it helps the community being more visible. So, I am happy in being able to put my code in git. And git is not only the remote thing, but the local git repository. Which helps with projects and all the kinds of files we need to deal with. All in one place, how nice. Smalltalkhub is cool but not for non Smalltalk files. Phil On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 12:24 AM, Dale Henrichs < dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > When you invent the next format, keep in mind that cross-platform source > code sharing is something to consider as well ... It's always harder to > make cross-platform code and some compromises have to be made to > accommodate multiple dialects ... > > Also consider that with FileTree we are only on the first step of Make it > work, Make it right, Make it fast ... > > Put your energy into implementations not arguments:) > > Dale > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com > > wrote: > >> I'm coming late to this, but Dolphin's VCS format has one file per >> package and "extensions", and one file per class (instance and metaclass). >> >> We succesfuly used that approach with git for more than a year. I know >> Object Arts did the same but backed by MS VCS (sourcesafe). >> >> It is good that we're discussing HOW to version everything with an >> external file based VCS. That means we'll end up doing it the best possible >> way. >> >> Regards. >> El mar 6, 2014 7:51 PM, "Jan Vrany" <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> escribiÃ³: >> >> On 06/03/14 22:34, Dale Henrichs wrote: >>> >>>> My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of >>>> git vs. mercurial! >>>> >>> >>> Lucky you, I still have to wait for this to happen :-) >>> >>> Let's make myself clear, +1 was not because of mercurial, >>> but because of class-per-file on-disk layout. >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> >>>> Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! >>>> >>>> Dale >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz >>>> <mailto:jan.vrany@fit.cvut.cz>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file >>>> based, above >>>> mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses >>>> are in >>>> Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that >>>> organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within >>>> protocols, >>>> classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find >>>> mercurial >>>> diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line >>>> or GUI >>>> tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, >>>> IMNSHO. >>>> >>>> >>>> +1. >>>> In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. >>>> >>>> Jan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >

March 6, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Dale Henrichs

When you invent the next format, keep in mind that cross-platform source code sharing is something to consider as well ... It's always harder to make cross-platform code and some compromises have to be made to accommodate multiple dialects ... Also consider that with FileTree we are only on the first step of Make it work, Make it right, Make it fast ... Put your energy into implementations not arguments:) Dale On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com>wrote: > I'm coming late to this, but Dolphin's VCS format has one file per package > and "extensions", and one file per class (instance and metaclass). > > We succesfuly used that approach with git for more than a year. I know > Object Arts did the same but backed by MS VCS (sourcesafe). > > It is good that we're discussing HOW to version everything with an > external file based VCS. That means we'll end up doing it the best possible > way. > > Regards. > El mar 6, 2014 7:51 PM, "Jan Vrany" <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> escribiÃ³: > > On 06/03/14 22:34, Dale Henrichs wrote: >> >>> My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of >>> git vs. mercurial! >>> >> >> Lucky you, I still have to wait for this to happen :-) >> >> Let's make myself clear, +1 was not because of mercurial, >> but because of class-per-file on-disk layout. >> >> Jan >> >> >> >>> Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! >>> >>> Dale >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz >>> <mailto:jan.vrany@fit.cvut.cz>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file >>> based, above >>> mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are >>> in >>> Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that >>> organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within >>> protocols, >>> classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find >>> mercurial >>> diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line >>> or GUI >>> tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, >>> IMNSHO. >>> >>> >>> +1. >>> In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>

March 6, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Sebastian Sastre

LOLWAT! :D for what is worth, my experience.. I donât know mercurial and I was ~8 months flirting with git and in a relationship since ~4 Git is okay Exposing the code out there in a way others can use their familiar commands to test our software is something I find very healthy But for us, automation is the real winner and git kind of helped with it (not that is a total requisite, but it was a way to have both âprofitsâ in one move) On Mar 6, 2014, at 7:34 PM, Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of git vs. mercurial! > > Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! > > Dale > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: > > > The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file based, above > mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are in > Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that > organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within protocols, > classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find mercurial > diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line or GUI > tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, IMNSHO. > > > +1. > In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. > > Jan > > >

March 6, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Esteban A. Maringolo

I'm coming late to this, but Dolphin's VCS format has one file per package and "extensions", and one file per class (instance and metaclass). We succesfuly used that approach with git for more than a year. I know Object Arts did the same but backed by MS VCS (sourcesafe). It is good that we're discussing HOW to version everything with an external file based VCS. That means we'll end up doing it the best possible way. Regards. El mar 6, 2014 7:51 PM, "Jan Vrany" <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> escribiÃ³: > On 06/03/14 22:34, Dale Henrichs wrote: > >> My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of >> git vs. mercurial! >> > > Lucky you, I still have to wait for this to happen :-) > > Let's make myself clear, +1 was not because of mercurial, > but because of class-per-file on-disk layout. > > Jan > > > >> Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! >> >> Dale >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz >> <mailto:jan.vrany@fit.cvut.cz>> wrote: >> >> >> >> The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file >> based, above >> mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are >> in >> Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that >> organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within >> protocols, >> classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find >> mercurial >> diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line >> or GUI >> tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, IMNSHO. >> >> >> +1. >> In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. >> >> Jan >> >> >> >> > >

March 6, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by kilon alios

Just for the sake of argument, I also don't like how things are broken down to one file per method and class being that json thing. Looks weird, and makes viewing code on github very tedious. On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Dale Henrichs < dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > Haha, sleep is overrated:) > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> On 06.03.2014, at 23:34, Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> >> wrote: >> >> My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of git >> vs. mercurial! >> >> >> How do you sleep at night?? :p >> >> >> Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! >> >> Dale >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file based, above >>>> mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are in >>>> Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that >>>> organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within protocols, >>>> classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find mercurial >>>> diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line or GUI >>>> tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, IMNSHO. >>>> >>>> >>> +1. >>> In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. >>> >>> Jan >>> >>> >>> >> >> >

March 6, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Jan Vrany

On 06/03/14 22:34, Dale Henrichs wrote: > My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of > git vs. mercurial! Lucky you, I still have to wait for this to happen :-) Let's make myself clear, +1 was not because of mercurial, but because of class-per-file on-disk layout. Jan > > Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! > > Dale > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz > <mailto:jan.vrany@fit.cvut.cz>> wrote: > > > > The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file > based, above > mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are in > Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that > organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within protocols, > classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find mercurial > diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line > or GUI > tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, IMNSHO. > > > +1. > In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. > > Jan > > >

March 6, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Dale Henrichs

Haha, sleep is overrated:) On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:39 PM, Max Leske <maxleske(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 06.03.2014, at 23:34, Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> > wrote: > > My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of git > vs. mercurial! > > > How do you sleep at night?? :p > > > Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! > > Dale > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: > >> >> >>> The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file based, above >>> mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are in >>> Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that >>> organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within protocols, >>> classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find mercurial >>> diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line or GUI >>> tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, IMNSHO. >>> >>> >> +1. >> In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. >> >> Jan >> >> >> > >

March 6, 2014

Re: [Pharo-dev] Support for git in Pharo

by Max Leske

On 06.03.2014, at 23:34, Dale Henrichs <dale.henrichs(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > My dream has finally come true ... Smalltalkers arguing the merits of git vs. mercurial! How do you sleep at night?? :p > > Alternate implementations to FileTree are welcome! > > Dale > > > On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Jan Vrany <jan.vrany(a)fit.cvut.cz> wrote: > > > The integration in Newspeak is quite different. It is file based, above > mercurial (which makes no difference) but the tools one uses are in > Newspeak. So mercurial really is just a back-end. Given that > organizations and alphabetical order of selectors within protocols, > classes within categories, etc, keeps things stable I find mercurial > diffs are still pretty readable with file-specific command-line or GUI > tools. Method-level granularity seems a very poor choice, IMNSHO. > > > +1. > In St/X I do exactly the same. Works just fine. > > Jan > > >

March 6, 2014