I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and Amber): http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/> I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community. My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving). There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./ Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk, not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter. Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/> Thanks. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797114.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
What about joining up with Smalltalk Foundation , STIC and ESUG .. Though laudable an initiative in whatever form you launch it. Just may give it a better thrust if there is joining of hands. Smalltalk has not in the past gained with multiple directions / efforts. Pull all efforts in as much as possible single basket. Thanks and best wishes in the endeavour. On Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 11:08 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page:
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797114.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
As I said, Smalltalk Renaissance is a rallying point for every fan of the language. However, coordinating with disparate groups would diffuse my time and energy. I believe it's better to have a fresh start that everybody can participate in and contribute to. As curator and editor of Smalltalk Renaissance, I can pick from the best and keep the campaign more focussed. There is so much "stuff" in the Smalltalk landscape that it's overwhelming and confusing to newcomers. *It made my head spin, which is what inspired me to start this endeavour.* As I mentioned, I want to try something new and different. Past efforts failed and they have a kind of "staleness" to them. I want to jettison all unnecessary baggage. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797142.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
So the idea is to be a rallying point for every Smalltalk fan with a bias towards presenting a map to newcomers What do you think that would make a good map?
On Dec 27, 2014, at 12:00 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
As I said, Smalltalk Renaissance is a rallying point for every fan of the language. However, coordinating with disparate groups would diffuse my time and energy. I believe it's better to have a fresh start that everybody can participate in and contribute to. As curator and editor of Smalltalk Renaissance, I can pick from the best and keep the campaign more focussed. There is so much "stuff" in the Smalltalk landscape that it's overwhelming and confusing to newcomers. *It made my head spin, which is what inspired me to start this endeavour.* As I mentioned, I want to try something new and different. Past efforts failed and they have a kind of "staleness" to them. I want to jettison all unnecessary baggage.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797142.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers. horrido wrote
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797516.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
âStreamlined Object Modelingâ Nicola, Mayfield, Abney http://www.amazon.com/Streamlined-Object-Modeling-Patterns-Implementation/dp... AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike e: aaron@chatnbike.com t: (301) 956-2319 On Dec 31, 2014, at 6:06 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
horrido wrote
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797516.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
everything by Andres was good to read: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Andres+... And also http://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent/dp/013476904X horrido wrote
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
horrido wrote
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797521.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I guess there aren't many free or online resources that are worth highlighting. (Make no mistake, there are lots of free online resources, but most of them are probably not very notable.) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797523.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Am 01.01.15 um 02:10 schrieb Paul DeBruicker:
everything by Andres was good to read: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Andres+... +1 (I haven't read the last one but the first two are IMO eye-opener while partly hard to understand for non-native speakers.)
And also http://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent/dp/013476904X
+1
horrido wrote
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
horrido wrote
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797521.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Can't believe I forgot about this one: http://squeak.joyful.com/LanguageNotes I used to use it all the time when learning the basics horrido wrote
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers. horrido wrote
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4799381.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 6:54 PM, Paul DeBruicker <pdebruic@gmail.com> wrote:
Can't believe I forgot about this one:
http://squeak.joyful.com/LanguageNotes
I used to use it all the time when learning the basics
I've put something like that in a package:
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~philippeback/HOExtras/packages/HOCheatSheet Phil
horrido wrote
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers. horrido wrote
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose the best ones to place on our Resources page: http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4799381.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hoi-- Who are you? Who is your audience? thanks, -C -- Craig Latta netjam.org +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
My name is Richard Eng and I'm a retired software engineer. I've been in IT for over 30 years. I've worked with FORTRAN, Tandem TAL, C/C++/C#/Objective-C, Java, Python, and Smalltalk in a variety of different problem domains ranging from real-time and telecommunications to database and financial to video graphics. I was Project Team Leader of the NT Driver Group at ATI Technologies (now AMD). I'm also a burgeoning writer. You can see my portfolio here <https://medium.com/@richardeng/latest> at Medium.com. Pay particular attention to the articles on Go web frameworks, Beego tutorial, web2py, programming languages, and the future of Dart which have garnered the most readership. I wrote an "advanced" tutorial for Go and Beego in order to help boost Beego's profile: " A Word from The Beegoist <https://medium.com/@richardeng/a-word-from-the-beegoist-d562ff8589d7> ". I am currently working on a similar article to help boost Amber's profile. My audience is anyone and everyone who is, or might be, interested in Smalltalk. This includes decision makers from the enterprise and IT journalists and software developers who are stuck in the Stone Age of file-based, emacs-based programming. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797140.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Nice initiative Mr or Mrs Horrido. The more we talk about Smalltalk in several places the better. Hilaire Le 27/12/2014 06:03, horrido a écrit :
I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and Amber):
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/>
I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community.
My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving).
There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./
Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk, not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu
Many languages I have never heard of are listed. What is missing to make Pharo listed here? Any idea? Cheers, Alexandre
On Dec 27, 2014, at 6:03 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and Amber):
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/>
I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community.
My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving).
There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./
Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk, not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Pharo is mentioned prominently at Smalltalk Renaissance. However, I do not want to give the impression that Smalltalk Renaissance is only about "selling" one particular implementation to the public. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797141.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
And to inspire all, this talk from Bret Victor is addressing the humane aspect in a very effective way http://vimeo.com/115154289 I have the impression that Smalltalk would score high in a humane medium of expression evaluation ... and if our UI/UX would be seriously improved lead by designers, not engineers, then Smalltalk could skyrocket its score in humane expression of computing. LISP, and Clojure and Haskell are great but they will always have a high entry barrier due to taste acquisition of algebra as requisite. Smalltalk amazingly, eased that barrier while potentially allowing you the same computing power. So what if?... What if we partner with a design university that embraces this spirit (which is very friendly to them but they don't know)? What I see is that if we do that, we might have a chance to achieve the best path that Bret proposes in his talk. my 2 cents from mobile
On 27/12/2014, at 03:03, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and Amber):
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/ <http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/>
I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community.
My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving).
There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./
Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk, not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking... What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades ago. Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened. Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt it. Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them? Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new language!*) This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797243.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Completely agree Richard. In this talk Alan Kay address that point: The Future Doesn't Have to Be Incremental https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAghAJcO1o <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTAghAJcO1o> Even if we have the visionaries, as in that talk is explained, you need funding to get them working on the vision. I donât know if our community has enough millionaires to make that happen, so far doesnât look like it. Or.. we didnât explore that path well enough
On Dec 28, 2014, at 10:36 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking...
What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades ago.
Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened.
Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt it.
Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them?
Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new language!*)
This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797243.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Inlined notes I agree nothing earth shaking is happening in Smalltalk in just the 6 months, but over the last 4 yrs it is a quite a shift in Pharo. Hats off to all active contributers. I quite disagree... on the fact nothing is happening. While all intellectually inclined love the idea of creating anew something ground breaking, it is in current decade more important to ensure we create relevant technology not just for the sake of claiming high ground. Wolfram , Google, FB may be creating their islands of tech bubbles and that may take the world too, but they have the billions I guess to afford. On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 6:06 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking...
What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades ago.
Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened.
Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt it.
Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them?
Stephane Ducasse and team are visionaries in as much as Pharo is shaking things up on Smalltalk world . Lots of new things have already been charted out, of course the tough grind of actually cleaning and providing a meaningful free Smalltalk environment for the enterprise world is a gargantuan task and I see it as being reached gradually in Pharo. That will itself be etched in history 10 yrs later as a great achievement.
Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new language!*)
For four years I have seen the kind of energy/ enthusiasm unmatched
in the last decade or more in Pharo resurgence. Free Enterprise Smalltalk, is about arriving in the IT industry.. just some honchos need to weave it in.
This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about.
Much said and done in Pharo, there is nothing stopping any group in creating something more powerful / relevant and leave the footprints in the sands of time more firmly etched. I agree again there is lot of scope provided that group does it..
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797243.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Guys you make me laugh. We built pharo to reinvent smalltalk (Since day one) and many people shout and cry because we do not want to say that this is a smalltalk and because it is not compatible. Now suddenly you show up (we pushed ESUG since 15 years BTW) telling us that we should all aggregate under the renaissance program (without really knowing what we are deeply doing) and now you criticize that nobody on Smalltalk is doing innovation. So let me tell you this: - adhesion and trust is based on actions in open-source world (So the ball is in your camp). - if I would have got the money that alan got for his projects, Pharo would not be like it is now but way better. There is a pharo roadmap (you may find it interesting) and we are steadily addressing it. We should write the new version of the Pharo vision. - Pharo is not Smalltalk and we are doing it our way. We want to make sure that people can get a living building applications with Pharo. - We are not just creating a language. We are creating an ecosystem with companies and universities. Here my piece of advices: - doing takes a lot more energy than talking, so think in terms of milestones: "what should I do if I do not get the energy to push it during years?" - there are plenty of ways to help but you have to decide. What you want to do. -- reading books -- writing tutorials -- blogging (but I agree I always pay attention about what I blog/twit) -- develop libraries Stef Le 29/12/14 01:36, horrido a écrit :
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking...
What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades ago.
Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened.
Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt it.
Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them?
Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new language!*)
This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797243.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
From "The City on the Edge of Forever":
KIRK: Then what is it? GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question. KIRK: What are you? GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever. KIRK: Are you machine or being? GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending. ----- Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail... The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable. Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100 list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl, Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position! Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe I know why. Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not enough on PR and marketing. Understandable, since engineers are /technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other words, we need to build /hype/. Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.* The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep the website clean and free of excess baggage.) The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance, although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) ) One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee you will look good!* Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling arguments. Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so on. In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press, such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your contributions/. Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship. If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to succeed. Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot. And this is why we need corporate sponsorship. Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter. (Hint, hint.) This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a work-in-progress. As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means. Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future. For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797313.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
There is something that I cannot understand: What is the goal of pushing Smalltalk that way? I am certainly not trying to do so. In the way I see the World, Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk. Actually, I would be tempted to say slightly inspired by Smalltalk as Pharo is taking a different path. Having Smalltalk low on the ranking does not bother me much. Having Pharo listed would be great although. Cheers, Alexandre
On Dec 29, 2014, at 8:40 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
From "The City on the Edge of Forever":
KIRK: Then what is it? GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question. KIRK: What are you? GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever. KIRK: Are you machine or being? GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable. Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100 list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl, Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not enough on PR and marketing. Understandable, since engineers are /technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other words, we need to build /hype/.
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance, although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press, such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship. If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot. And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter. (Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means.
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future. For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797313.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
There is something that I cannot understand: What is the goal of pushing Smalltalk that way? I am certainly not trying to do so.
In the way I see the World, Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk. Actually, I would be tempted to say slightly inspired by Smalltalk as Pharo is taking a different path.
Having Smalltalk low on the ranking does not bother me much. Having Pharo listed would be great although.
Yes!!! This is long ago that I decided to stop to fight against the "new is cool" trends. Stef
Le 29/12/14 20:40, horrido a écrit :
From "The City on the Edge of Forever":
KIRK: Then what is it? GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question. KIRK: What are you? GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever. KIRK: Are you machine or being? GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable. Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100 list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl, Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
So Smalltalk is dead and Pharo alive and kicking. No?
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not enough on PR and marketing.
On making money too.
Understandable, since engineers are /technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other words, we need to build /hype/.
We market Pharo as a new language because Pharo is cool and we do not have to carry with us the "old" aspects and fight against the museum syndrom. You can give a try we would prefer to market Pharo as Pharo.
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance, although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press, such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship. If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot. And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter. (Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means. No but roma has not been done in a week.
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future. For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not enough on PR and marketing.
On making money too.
You're saying Smalltalk organizations are too focussed on making money? I've heard that, too. It sounds very odd to me. I thought these organizations were created for the love of the language. Am I too naive?
We market Pharo as a new language because Pharo is cool and we do not have to carry with us the "old" aspects and fight against the museum syndrome.
Then you have failed. Virtually every mention of Pharo on the web is directly linked to Smalltalk. In the public consciousness, there is little or no distinction between Pharo and Smalltalk. Trying to force this distinction, I believe, is a mistake; it's futile. If Pharo is a new language disconnected from Smalltalk, then it loses whatever cachet Smalltalk has. Smalltalk already has a ton of references on the web; it just needs to be cleaned up a bit. Hence, Smalltalk Renaissance. Moreover, we can fight the museum syndrome through branding and education. Smalltalk is already a positive marque; it's renown for its influence in language design, for example. Pharo has to start from scratch in building its brand. It's more challenging. So far, it has ridden on Smalltalk's coattails. Continuing on this path is the smarter move.
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
Smalltalk Renaissance is also about the community, as I've already explained. Yes, getting Smalltalk into US (and Canadian) schools is vitally important. I haven't yet determined SRP's role in this regard. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797336.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk.
On Pharo being a "new language"... I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax that extend Smalltalk, making it a /superset/ of Smalltalk rather than just another /dialect/. I would be very cautious about doing this. One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk /language/ is its pure simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got absolutely correct. *You change this at your own peril.* If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo /environment/ (including the tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things.
From "Alien":
ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. LAMBERT: You admire it. ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. Generalissimo -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797368.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 30 Dec 2014, at 13:27, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk.
On Pharo being a "new language"...
I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax that extend Smalltalk, making it a /superset/ of Smalltalk rather than just another /dialect/. I would be very cautious about doing this.
One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk /language/ is its pure simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got absolutely correct. *You change this at your own peril.*
If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo /environment/ (including the tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
From "Alien":
ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. LAMBERT: You admire it. ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. \
I would advise you to not waste everyones time. Please start DOING, stop TALKING. Keep in mind that you have until now not done *anything at all*, yet you know exactly what everyone else is supposed to be doing. Marcus
Such hostility! If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way. I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??). I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've clearly outlined in a previous post. I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else" is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR front? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797382.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:37, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly
Honestly: https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais <https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais> Tweets: 7 Followers: 8 Following: 0 You are definitely seeing a different reality than me. Marcus
Relax people. Remember the stages of team formation: - forming - storming (we are here) - norming - performing So, this is good. What is the problem with what Robert is doing? Let's use Renaissance as the French Renaissance. We need more PR. Not for cool or new. But as backing up our ass when the C level guys need reassurance. I have my little side project that will go out in Q1 on that front. Phil Le 30 déc. 2014 14:45, "Marcus Denker" <marcus.denker@inria.fr> a écrit :
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:37, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly
Honestly:
https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais
Tweets: 7 Followers: 8 Following: 0
You are definitely seeing a different reality than me.
Marcus
+ 1000 Just add a filter if you get annoyed :)
Relax people.
Remember the stages of team formation:
- forming - storming (we are here) - norming - performing
So, this is good.
What is the problem with what Robert is doing?
Let's use Renaissance as the French Renaissance.
We need more PR. Not for cool or new. But as backing up our ass when the C level guys need reassurance.
I have my little side project that will go out in Q1 on that front.
Phil
Le 30 déc. 2014 14:45, "Marcus Denker" <marcus.denker@inria.fr <mailto:marcus.denker@inria.fr>> a écrit :
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:37, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote:
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly
Honestly:
https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais
Tweets: 7 Followers: 8 Following: 0
You are definitely seeing a different reality than me.
Marcus
I'm Richard. You're thinking of my brother Robert. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797395.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 30 déc. 2014 15:13, "horrido" <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> a écrit :
I'm Richard. You're thinking of my brother Robert.
Yes. My bad ;-) Phil
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797395.ht...
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:45, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:37, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly
Honestly:
https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais
Tweets: 7 Followers: 8 Following: 0
You are definitely seeing a different reality than me.
Just to compare the scale: Tweets: 3266 Followers: 1077 or google plus⦠of course it needs a genius like you do set up a google plus account: http://google.com/+Pharo-projectOrg Marcus
BTW, you missed another key point: My Google+ page (and my Facebook page) is *part of a branding effort* for Smalltalk, and Smalltalk Renaissance. Thus, the Pharo Project Google+ page is of little value to me. I'm truly astonished that you didn't understand that. Marcus Denker-4 wrote
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:45, Marcus Denker <
marcus.denker@
> wrote:of course it needs a genius like you do set up a google plus account:
http://google.com/+Pharo-projectOrg
Marcus
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797425.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
My Twitter account is less than 3 days old. How many tweets do you expect in that time period? And I struggle to find things to tweet about. I'm not accustomed to this. Maybe you can cut me just a wee bit of slack? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797394.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Richard, we appreciate your ideas and engagement on the topic. Marketing measures are surely welcomed and we are eager to see what you are going to achieve. I think nobody knows what is it that makes something successful. It is a ghost a lot of people are trying to hunt down. But I think it is hard to be really sure about it. On the other hand we are a community for several years now and we talk about those things regularly. We decide how we proceed and a few weeks another person chimes in wanting to discus it again. Your mails had that tone (maybe that was not intended) that you know what to do and we should follow that or at least focus on it. Reread that and take two first paragraphs into account. This sounds strange for a community. Asking for twitter accounts and all sorts of resources appears to me that you didn't do your homework well. That surely doesn't work. But now I think the best thing is to let this thread rest a day or two to have tensions cool down. After that the discussion might be different. Norbert
Am 30.12.2014 um 15:09 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>:
My Twitter account is less than 3 days old. How many tweets do you expect in that time period?
And I struggle to find things to tweet about. I'm not accustomed to this. Maybe you can cut me just a wee bit of slack?
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Such hostility!
This has been gone over before and it can be a sensitive issue and draining for busy people with a vision of what they want to achieve with Pharo - hence the terse response. There is some enlightening research you could do in the archives on this topic. (sorry too hard to find through this vacation interface) Now often I post a link to Eric S Raymond's "how to ask smart questions" but this interface is difficult, could you google it.
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??). I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've clearly outlined in a previous post.
This is great to hear of these positive actions.
I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else" is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR
Everyone contributes in their own way. It will be good to add more PR, but this needs to be lead by those technical-doers who have spent the last five years creating their vision for Pharo. (myself I am a newcomer also) -Ben
I think newcomers like us can play a pivot role too. As a newcomer I made Pharo manipulate Blender by hijacking python, I thought that most likely I would fail because I dont know Pharo well and I never tried to create a parser or communicate via sockets but I was succesful and uploaded several videos that I am sure raised some eyebrows. Now imagine 1 million pharo newcomers do this and having 1 million youtube videos that would lead to raising 1 million eyebrows :D I agree that the best people for the job are experienced pharo developers but they can only do so much with their limited free time. We all need to help on this. Plus I have been following your progress with pharo and you have done some pretty cool contributions to pharo ;) On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Such hostility!
This has been gone over before and it can be a sensitive issue and draining for busy people with a vision of what they want to achieve with Pharo - hence the terse response. There is some enlightening research you could do in the archives on this topic. (sorry too hard to find through this vacation interface)
Now often I post a link to Eric S Raymond's "how to ask smart questions" but this interface is difficult, could you google it.
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??). I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've clearly outlined in a previous post.
This is great to hear of these positive actions.
I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else" is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR
Everyone contributes in their own way. It will be good to add more PR, but this needs to be lead by those technical-doers who have spent the last five years creating their vision for Pharo. (myself I am a newcomer also)
-Ben
Such hostility! +1000 No need for that, we should ALL be ONE family. Some people should *seriously* get a second cup of coffee in the morning before they hit *Send* or even write a single line of comment. Calm down people!  -----------------Benoit St-JeanYahoo! Messenger: bstjeanTwitter: @BenLeChialeuxPinterest: benoitstjeanIRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
Am 30.12.14 um 14:37 schrieb horrido:
Such hostility! I don't consider the reactions as being hostile. For me it's more like being impatient. And I can understand this because when somebody spent a lot of time and energy during the last years, it's not nice being told that was mostly wrong and somethine else is needed more.
I visited your site. What alienated my immediately was the (in my eyes) bad restriction on "Web Development". I am not interested in web development. I don't intent to start a new Google, Facebook, Yahoo or a web shop and thus I don't care about web development. Regards Andreas
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??). I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've clearly outlined in a previous post.
I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else" is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR front?
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797382.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
The emphasis on web development is a "hook" to draw in the public. The fact is, whether you choose to believe it or not, the web is the single most important technological achievement of the past two decades. It's on everybody's mind. They identify with it. The website does not suggest that Smalltalk is only good for web development. Of course, you can use it for anything else. I confess I'm coloured by my experience. I worked with Seaside and I'm now working with Amber. I love web technologies. (At Medium.com, you can see this in my articles on web2py, Go frameworks, JavaScript and Dart.) If you're really interested in boosting other problem domains at Smalltalk Renaissance, you are certainly most welcome to do so by submitting essays. Or posting to Facebook. Remember, SRP does not succeed with *you*. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797410.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Erm, I mean, SRP does not succeed without *you*. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797411.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 30 déc. 2014 13:28, "horrido" <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> a écrit :
Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk.
On Pharo being a "new language"...
I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax that extend Smalltalk, making it a /superset/ of Smalltalk rather than
just
another /dialect/. I would be very cautious about doing this.
One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk /language/ is its pure simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got absolutely correct. *You change this at your own peril.*
If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo /environment/ (including the tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things.
From "Alien":
ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. LAMBERT: You admire it. ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.
Generalissimo
Some features: - Slots - Opal compiler - Enhanced collections - Removal of a lot of old craft - Nativeboost - TxText - GToolkit - Better infrastructure - Command line handlers - JSON support One may argue that these are extensions. But to me there are what makes it different and powerful. I am using VW PUL at times but I prefer Pharo by far when it comes to the development experience. Pharo also allows one to master from the metal up to the UI. Not many contenders on that front. As a software engineer, it matters to me. I hate black magic happening. With Pharo I can make sense of things. I do feel empowered when using Pharo. Not so with other languages and tools where I feel like a user not a (co)-owner. There is this irrational inner joy associated with elegance. I feel it. I like it. It is what makes me choose it over more mainstream tech. We 'll see how far this will lead me and my business. Choosing something is saying no to other things as there is only so much time available. Mastery takes time and dedication. So be it. Phil
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Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption. Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a mistake. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797374.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 30 déc. 2014 14:10, "horrido" <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> a écrit :
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has
the
most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a mistake.
This has been discussed ad lubitum in the past. Now, as "Pharo is yours", one can do as he pleases. That is also why open source is great.
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It does not matter how one calls Pharo, the only people who care are smalltalk developers and they are not that many out there anyway. Pharo tries to attract all developers but in order to do that in order for it become more popular it has to play the rules and the rules are simple, active support, libraries and documentation. Take a look at your TIOBE INDEX you think that any of those top 10 , top 50 or top 100 languages got up there out of accident, or maybe out of good PR , because people tweet about them ? Hell no ! Java , Javascript and C++ are some of the most hated languages out there. Python and Ruby some of the most loved . The only common thing these language have is their huge libraries , massive support and documentation projects . This is the real competition to Pharo becoming more popular. Pharo has been progressing very well, not because people tweet about it but because it has more tools, better libraries and active effort to expand and organise documentation. It has people who do the hard work. Sure tweeting gives it more exposure but in the end nobody is going buy the PR hype , we all know PR is bullshit if you dont have a quality product to sell. How Pharo will compete with Python if it cant offer a similar amount of what Python offers if not more like all the other Python competitors ? Pharo does not need a marketing team, it needs more contributors . So does every other language that needs to expand. On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 3:10 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a mistake.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797374.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Many of the top languages got there by fortuitous happenstance. JavaScript was esp. lucky in being embedded in every browser on the planet. Java had corporate sponsorship. C++ had a lot of history. Yes, grassroots helped the likes of Python and Ruby, but I contend those days are over. Mozilla, for example, needs grassroots to help Rust, but I don't see Rust succeeding. Today, it's not enough to have good libraries/tools, documentation, and word of mouth. Pharo is not alone. I see LOTS of other languages trying to do the same thing. Most of them will remain in relative obscurity. I bet my life on it. You need more contributors? How are you going to get them? It comes down to the same thing. Marketing and mindshare. PR is bullshit. But it's also a door that opens for Pharo to get its message out. Where would iPhone be without PR bullshit? Smalltalk needs an edge. I'm trying to give you that edge. Do you want it? Frankly, I'm happy to move on to other things in my life. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797403.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
And, yes, I did not do my most thorough homework regarding Pharo, as several of you have pointed out. Frankly, I don't have /that/ much time and energy. I'm old and retired. I'm just doing this for pleasure. So I rely on /you/ to set me straight. I remind you that I'm just the coordinator of the campaign, because I'm sure none of you have that much time to do what I'm doing. Marcus suggested that anyone can create a Google+ page, but he misses the point. The Google+ page is just one brick in the foundation of the campaign. It's part of a whole. Norbert suggests that I think I know what to do. No, I have ideas and I have a plan. There's no guarantee that it will work. Either you buy into my plan, or you don't. Either I have your support, or I don't. If the latter, I shan't waste any more time (yours or mind). -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797406.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 30/12/14 15:37, horrido a écrit :
Many of the top languages got there by fortuitous happenstance. JavaScript was esp. lucky in being embedded in every browser on the planet. Java had corporate sponsorship. C++ had a lot of history.
Yes, grassroots helped the likes of Python and Ruby, but I contend those days are over. Mozilla, for example, needs grassroots to help Rust, but I don't see Rust succeeding. Today, it's not enough to have good libraries/tools, documentation, and word of mouth.
Pharo is not alone. I see LOTS of other languages trying to do the same thing. Most of them will remain in relative obscurity. I bet my life on it.
You need more contributors? How are you going to get them? It comes down to the same thing. Marketing and mindshare.
PR is bullshit. But it's also a door that opens for Pharo to get its message out. Where would iPhone be without PR bullshit?
Smalltalk needs an edge. I'm trying to give you that edge. Do you want it?
build trust by doing.
Frankly, I'm happy to move on to other things in my life.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797403.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
What else would you like me to do, in addition to what I've already described? stepharo wrote
Le 30/12/14 15:37, horrido a écrit :
Smalltalk needs an edge. I'm trying to give you that edge. Do you want it?
build trust by doing.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797413.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:10, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a mistake.
More PR, more people doing marketing is good, we'll see how it goes, I wish you good luck. However, about this 'Pharo is (not) Smalltalk', you've just proven our point: we deliberately distance ourselves somewhat from classic Smalltalk. Both because most people think Smalltalk is dead and a relic of the past and we want to avoid that negative connotation, and because the next thing always is 'No, don't do that, you can't change anything'. Pharo was started precisely because we want the freedom to change things where necessary (on all levels, VM, language, compiler, runtime, libraries, concepts, tools, ..) - and we have been doing that quite successfully for years now. Do we deny our heritage, no, but we don't stress it. This is a choice that we made. Sven
Some features:>- Slots - Opal compiler - Enhanced collections - Removal of a lot of old craft - Nativeboost - TxText - GToolkit - Better infrastructure - Command line handlers - JSON support>One may argue that these are extensions. But to me there are what makes it different and powerful.>I am using VW PUL at times but I prefer Pharo by far when it comes to the development experience.>Pharo also allows one to master from the metal up to the UI. Not many contenders on that front. As a software engineer, it matters to me. I hate black magic >happening. With Pharo I can make sense of things.>I do feel empowered when using Pharo. Not so with other languages and tools where I feel like a user not a (co)-owner.>There is this irrational inner joy associated with elegance. I feel it. I like it. It is what makes me choose it over more mainstream tech. We 'll see how far this >will lead me and my business.>Choosing something is saying no to other things as there is only so much time available. Mastery takes time and dedication. So be it.>Phil I can understand some of the arguments of both sides but one has to take into consideration that not all users are familiar with Smalltalk and not everyone uses Smalltalk for the same reasons. For some, what you see as Pharo's strengths are seen by others as its main weaknesses. Slots? So what? I have yet to see a use for it that makes my life way easier as a developer.Â
Opal compiler? As long as it compiles, why should I care? If you're into compilers and want to experiment, that's a plus I admit it. If you're not, who cares? Enhanced collections? You're always one package away from those with Cincom Public Repository. Removal of a lot of old craft? Yeah, that one is an argument when you compare Pharo against Squeak, especially on the Morphic side. But dead wood in VisualWorks or VAST, I don't see much! NativeBoost? If you can demonstrate that Pharo is faster than VisualWorks or easier to interface with external ressources, I'll buy it! TxText & GToolkit : as I said, you can always get (or port) the equivalent with VAST & VisualWorks. Infrastructure? Okay, automated builds & tests but so what? If Dolphin Smalltalk works fine right out of the box, why should I be concerned with how it works/compiles/tests if I want to *use* it and not *develop* it? Do you really care about how DB/2 compiles or your priority is that it does the job? Command line & JSON : as always, you have have that elsewhere for most products. I'll admit it's fun to know how things work under the hood but for most of us, it's simply irrelevant. I've worked on huge projects and, most of the time, clients want specific features & results. I've had to work with VAST lots of times and on most occasions, the rationale of that choice was pretty simple for the client : it had "out of the box" DB/2 & COBOL & MQSeries support as well as *reports* (never underestimate their love of reports!). On other occasions, the client preferred VisualWorks because of portability and speed. If you'd tell me you're into music & MIDI, I'd recommend Squeak. At one time, if you had told me you needed a cheap native Smalltalk development environment, I would have recommended Dolphin. I don't believe in "ours is sooooo much better" arguments. My favorite Smalltalk is VW but for some projects, I would just not use it! I'm very familiar with VAST but for some projects, I just wouldn't use it! The same way I've mostly preferred DB/2 over other RDBMS but, for some jobs, DB/2 is simply not the answer, as much as I love it! The same way GemStone/S sucks for some jobs! My main reason to love Pharo is it's extremely rapid pace of new features and the fact that the Pharo community hasn't constrained itself into the "we must be backward or Smalltalk-80 compatible" mindset. That's a plus if you already know Smalltalk and you want to experiment new ideas but if you're a newcomer, I would certainly recommend another Smalltalk to learn the language. Wanna know why? I spend my time, each & every night on IRC answering private questions about "how come this code I found in a Smalltalk tutorial/package/fileOut doesn't work/load in Pharo". See? For a newcomer, Pharo is often times waaaay too far from Squeak and/or Smalltalk-80. There are TONS of snippets/code/tutorials/packages/fileOut out there that expect, somehow, that your environment is a close cousin of Smalltalk-80. There a re tons of packages on squeaksource.com that don't load into Pharo without some work that a newbie cannot do.  There are tons of code in the Cincom Public Repository or Dolphin goodies or VAST goodies that don't load into Pharo without much work, way too much work for a newbie... Besides, most newbies want to be able to build *something* and then play with it. If you can show me that you can build a screen with a few widgets in Pharo *faster* than you can do it in VAST, VW or Dolphin, I'll be convinced. We musn't forget that not all users of Pharo are familiar with "Pharo's dialect" and are able to correct/fix/understand the differences between what they expect to load and what Pharo can actually load. Add to that code management, package dependencies, old/contradictory documentation/terminology found everywhere (Universes, packages, fileOuts, Bundles, Applications, Pundle, Configuration Maps, Monticello, Metacello, GitHub) and you will easily see why, lots of times, newcomers just give up. "I just want to build a f*cking window with a few fields (firstname, lastname, date of birth), a list (marital status), a checkbox and a text field for comments and it takes eons to build and tons of code" is a comment I regularly get. In VW and VAST & Dolphin, that simple task is a 5 minute job. Out of the box. "I just want to f*cking read data from a database [insert favorite database here] and it's so complicated" is a comment I regularly get. In VW and VAST , that simple task is a 5 minute job. Out of the box. I can assure you that, from questions I have every day, being a newbie in Smalltalk and using Pharo is not an easy thing. So let's stop arguing that WhateverSmalltalk is better than AnotherSmalltalk. It might be in some cases for some jobs but in the meantime, one of our (the Smalltalk Community) big problem is attracting new people to Smalltalk and make them stay with us. The paradigm shift of pure OO and development tools & the "image thing" is a lot of concepts that aren't easy to grasp if all you've known is Java, C++ or C#. Documentation is the key. And on that side, Pharo got it right. There will never be too many PBE or kilon's videos! Let's not forget that what is obvious to us can sometimes appear (or be) eons away for a newbie!  -----------------Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada. I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for. stepharo wrote
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
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Hi, The Squeak images tend to be more tuned towards grade-school education. In particular, âeToysâ sits on top of smalltalk and is perfect for young elementary school students to take their first steps in computer programming. My children went through the âwaveplaceâ video tutorials. They did the beta one which was more in depth and had like 30 videos if I remember correctly. Pharo is more âprofessional.â Not to say there is anything wrong with Squeak, it was used for DabbleDB⦠Itâs just that most developers donât want to see a mouse with eyeballs following your cursor when you first launch the image. You can remove that from the image, etc. but itâs that first feel. Overall Squeak seems like it blends in better in the classroom and Pharo suits developers more. Iâll probably be flamed for saying it but realize itâs a high level generalization. I know there is more going on underneath and I know that Pharo is the primary target for Seaside, etc. Both Squeak and Pharo are nice. AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike e: aaron@chatnbike.com t: (301) 956-2319 On Jan 4, 2015, at 5:25 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
stepharo wrote
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I just went through a few of the Waveplace videos. I am impressed. They are truly excellent videos and I can see how they can engage youngsters and gently introduce programming concepts to them. Why aren't these being used in Canadian elementary schools??? I shall have to ask. Beyond the early grades, students can continue learning programming with Pharo. I see this as a smooth migration. This is getting exciting! Aaron Rosenzweig wrote
Hi,
The Squeak images tend to be more tuned towards grade-school education. In particular, âeToysâ sits on top of smalltalk and is perfect for young elementary school students to take their first steps in computer programming.
My children went through the âwaveplaceâ video tutorials. They did the beta one which was more in depth and had like 30 videos if I remember correctly.
Pharo is more âprofessional.â Not to say there is anything wrong with Squeak, it was used for DabbleDB⦠Itâs just that most developers donât want to see a mouse with eyeballs following your cursor when you first launch the image. You can remove that from the image, etc. but itâs that first feel.
Overall Squeak seems like it blends in better in the classroom and Pharo suits developers more. Iâll probably be flamed for saying it but realize itâs a high level generalization. I know there is more going on underneath and I know that Pharo is the primary target for Seaside, etc. Both Squeak and Pharo are nice. AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike e:
aaron@
t: (301) 956-2319
On Jan 4, 2015, at 5:25 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
stepharo wrote
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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It depends what is the level you are looking for. We are working on lectures and books for second and third year university students. Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or software is writting in Smalltalk. Stef Le 4/1/15 23:25, horrido a écrit :
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
stepharo wrote
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Oh, I didn't realize you were focussed on older kids. I'm looking at introducing Smalltalk at the elementary school level, getting kids hooked on Smalltalk at an early age. Probably a full-blown Pharo or Squeak image would be overkill. stepharo wrote
It depends what is the level you are looking for. We are working on lectures and books for second and third year university students.
Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or software is writting in Smalltalk.
Stef
Le 4/1/15 23:25, horrido a écrit :
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
stepharo wrote
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797846.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Maybe Phratch? Then maybe they start looking under the hood? http://www.phratch.com/ On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 10:31 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Oh, I didn't realize you were focussed on older kids. I'm looking at introducing Smalltalk at the elementary school level, getting kids hooked on Smalltalk at an early age. Probably a full-blown Pharo or Squeak image would be overkill.
stepharo wrote
It depends what is the level you are looking for. We are working on lectures and books for second and third year university students.
Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or software is writting in Smalltalk.
Stef
Le 4/1/15 23:25, horrido a écrit :
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
stepharo wrote
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
-- View this message in context:
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Thanks! I had never heard of Phratch (or Scratch, for that matter). It looks very promising. I can imagine it's sorta like LEGO in Smalltalk. What youngster wouldn't like that? Ben Coman wrote
Maybe Phratch? Then maybe they start looking under the hood? http://www.phratch.com/
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 10:31 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
Oh, I didn't realize you were focussed on older kids. I'm looking at introducing Smalltalk at the elementary school level, getting kids hooked on Smalltalk at an early age. Probably a full-blown Pharo or Squeak image would be overkill.
stepharo wrote
It depends what is the level you are looking for. We are working on lectures and books for second and third year university students.
Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or software is writting in Smalltalk.
Stef
Le 4/1/15 23:25, horrido a écrit :
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
stepharo wrote
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.ht...
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797846.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797868.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Iâm a Smalltalker that is happy when JavaScript and LISP and Phyton and Ruby and Dart gain popularity because it makes my life easier when I have to explain to the next dynamic friendly developer how our workspace, inspector and debugger works and how our library gets navigated so the new guy can fell he can master it by himself easier than other tools (which is a Smalltalk language design intention from day zero, and totally successful at it BTW). I can understand that some might feel indifferent at Scala or Java popularity but being "a Pharoerâ and hostile, antagonising or actively indifferent to Smalltalk's popularity and branding efforts is a frank strategic parricide <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parricide>
On Dec 29, 2014, at 5:40 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
From "The City on the Edge of Forever":
KIRK: Then what is it? GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before your race was born, I have awaited a question. KIRK: What are you? GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever. KIRK: Are you machine or being? GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable. Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100 list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl, Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not enough on PR and marketing. Understandable, since engineers are /technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other words, we need to build /hype/.
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance, although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press, such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship. If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot. And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter. (Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means.
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future. For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797313.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 30 déc. 2014 00:23, "Sebastian Sastre" <sebastian@flowingconcept.com> a écrit :
Iâm a Smalltalker that is happy when JavaScript and LISP and Phyton and
Ruby and Dart gain popularity because it makes my life easier when I have to explain to the next dynamic friendly developer how our workspace, inspector and debugger works and how our library gets navigated so the new guy can fell he can master it by himself easier than other tools (which is a Smalltalk language design intention from day zero, and totally successful at it BTW).
I can understand that some might feel indifferent at Scala or Java
popularity but being "a Pharoerâ and hostile, antagonising or actively indifferent to Smalltalk's popularity and branding efforts is a frank strategic parricide And so we entered the land of Zealots of True Faith (tm). PR is useful. But patronizing what is and what is not leaves me cold. Phil
On Dec 29, 2014, at 5:40 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
From "The City on the Edge of Forever":
KIRK: Then what is it? GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and
before
your race was born, I have awaited a question. KIRK: What are you? GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever. KIRK: Are you machine or being? GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable. Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100 list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl, Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not enough on PR and marketing. Understandable, since engineers are /technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other words, we need to build /hype/.
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance, although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press, such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship. If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot. And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter. (Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means.
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future. For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797313.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
participants (17)
-
Aaron Rosenzweig -
Alexandre Bergel -
Andreas Wacknitz -
Ben Coman -
Benoit St-Jean -
Craig Latta -
Hilaire -
horrido -
kilon alios -
Marcus Denker -
Norbert Hartl -
Paul DeBruicker -
phil＠highoctane.be -
S Krish -
Sebastian Sastre -
stepharo -
Sven Van Caekenberghe