[Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? Bill
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>wrote:
For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline. ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction. My question stands. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction.
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. And then: GTProfStef open (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) Cheers Laurent Laffont
My question stands. Bill
------------------------------ *From:* pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] *On Behalf Of *Mariano Martinez Peck *Sent:* Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM *To:* Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>wrote:
For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives DNU #goOn:viewedWith: After all of: Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion. ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial'). Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? 2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline. ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction. Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault. And then: GTProfStef open (You spawn the new lesson by command+o) Cheers Laurent Laffont My question stands. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr> [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr>] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial. Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Hi, This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments. Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives
DNU #goOn:viewedWith:
After all of:
Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion.
ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial').
Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction.
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
And then: GTProfStef open
(You spawn the new lesson by command+o)
Cheers
Laurent Laffont
My question stands.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com "When people care, great things can happen."
As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or a central repository. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? Hi, This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments. Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives
DNU #goOn:viewedWith:
After all of:
Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion.
ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial').
Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction.
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
And then: GTProfStef open
(You spawn the new lesson by command+o)
Cheers
Laurent Laffont
My question stands.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounc es@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-proj ect-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge. inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com "When people care, great things can happen." _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Hi, I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or a central repository.
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
Hi,
This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments.
Cheers, Doru
On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives
DNU #goOn:viewedWith:
After all of:
Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion.
ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial').
Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction.
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
And then: GTProfStef open
(You spawn the new lesson by command+o)
Cheers
Laurent Laffont
My question stands.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project- bounc es@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo- proj ect-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo- project@lists.gforge. inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"When people care, great things can happen."
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them."
Doru, This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme would benefit from some additional behavior. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? Hi, I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said". Cheers, Doru On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or a central repository.
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
Hi,
This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments.
Cheers, Doru
On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives
DNU #goOn:viewedWith:
After all of:
Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion.
ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial').
Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction.
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
And then: GTProfStef open
(You spawn the new lesson by command+o)
Cheers
Laurent Laffont
My question stands.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project- bounc es@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo- proj ect-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo- project@lists.gforge. inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"When people care, great things can happen."
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-- www.tudorgirba.com "There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them." _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
El dom, 07-02-2010 a las 15:17 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió:
Doru,
This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme would benefit from some additional behavior.
Bill, one more time, that is not the task of Metacello. Metacello just keeps record of stable, released, working sets of packages versions that make a reproducible, working installation of a given software. Isn't meant to be used as a friendly tool for end users, *but* as a flexible tool for configurations maintainers. As you already know, there are tools being worked (Loader) that are *aimed* at end users and have listing capabilities as you want. Please, read this thread: http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-January/019090.htm... Cheers
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
Hi,
I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said".
Cheers, Doru
On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or a central repository.
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
Hi,
This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments.
Cheers, Doru
On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives
DNU #goOn:viewedWith:
After all of:
Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion.
ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial').
Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction.
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
And then: GTProfStef open
(You spawn the new lesson by command+o)
Cheers
Laurent Laffont
My question stands.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project- bounc es@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo- proj ect-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo- project@lists.gforge. inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
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http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
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http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"When people care, great things can happen."
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them."
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx
Doru, I urge you to not blame the customer. You can hear it from me, or you can hear it from others later. Hopefully Loader will prevent the latter. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:45 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? El dom, 07-02-2010 a las 15:17 -0500, Schwab,Wilhelm K escribió:
Doru,
This thread over the past couple of days contains the answers, but briefly, IMHO, the current deployment of Metacello is underspecified and overly complicated. It begs for better factoring in the interest of the end user. If nothing else, take an honest look at the various multi-line snippets in the beginner workspace. Each should comfortably fit on one line; helper methods could readily get us there for most configurations. The ones that do not fit a simple scheme would benefit from some additional behavior.
Bill, one more time, that is not the task of Metacello. Metacello just keeps record of stable, released, working sets of packages versions that make a reproducible, working installation of a given software. Isn't meant to be used as a friendly tool for end users, *but* as a flexible tool for configurations maintainers. As you already know, there are tools being worked (Loader) that are *aimed* at end users and have listing capabilities as you want. Please, read this thread: http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/pipermail/pharo-project/2010-January/019090.htm... Cheers
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:40 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
Hi,
I think I missed a mail because I do not understand what is a moving target and I do not know what you mean by "as I said".
Cheers, Doru
On 7 Feb 2010, at 19:26, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
As I said, a moving target. I know it is not necessarily easy, but if this is to work we must have either self-describing configurations or a central repository.
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Tudor Girba Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 1:19 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
Hi,
This happens because you do not have the latest ProfStef. to get it, you have to load ProfStef-Core. In the process of checking the latest version I also updated both ProfStef-Core and GTProfStef to cope with the latest developments.
Cheers, Doru
On 7 Feb 2010, at 14:58, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
In an RC2 image, GTProfStef open gives
DNU #goOn:viewedWith:
After all of:
Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfMetacello'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfMetacello) perform: #loadLatestVersion.
ConfigurationOfMetacello project latestVersion load: #('Tutorial').
Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of laurent laffont [laurent.laffont@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 4:06 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
2010/2/6 Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu
The closest thing I see in the tutorial (assuming it is working as intended) is a mention of baseline configurations. If that is in fact how things can work, there should be an abstract super class for all configurations (or at least a trait they all use to avoid duplicate code) and a method that loads the baseline.
ProfStef would be a lot more useful if it made use of Polymorph: a table of contents in a left pane, select an item and the righ pane shows the content, actions replaced with buttons rather than forcing a lot of right-clicking. To the extent that those things are difficult, we need easy-to-use tree models. From what I have been able to figure out of the tutorial, a wiki page would be more helpful and more likely to be read. If you "force" loading of code, then there should be some benefit in the form of interaction.
Danny Chan has written ProfStefBrowser (in the same repository as ProfStef) which has both browsing and interactive (ProfStef next) capabilities. Tudor Girba has also written a proof-of-concept using Glamour: Gofer new squeaksource: 'glamoroust'; package: 'ConfigurationOfGlamoroust'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfGlamoroust) perform: #loadDefault.
And then: GTProfStef open
(You spawn the new lesson by command+o)
Cheers
Laurent Laffont
My question stands.
Bill
________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project- bounc es@lists.gforge.inria.fr
[mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo- proj ect-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 4:52 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo- project@lists.gforge. inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information??
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu <mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
You must know about Metacello. As you can noticed, that's why I added the link to the tutorial.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"When people care, great things can happen."
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"There are no old things, there are only old ways of looking at them."
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
-- Miguel Cobá http://miguel.leugim.com.mx _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>wrote:
For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load?
Ok, now I think I got what you meant with your question. This question is difficult to answer as it doesn't depends on Metacello. If you want to know which version exactly to load of a particular project, then you need to know about that project or ask the developers/maintainers. It is not a Metacello responsibility. If the person who writes the Configuration is cool, it will put the whole changes/changelog in the #description: of the version method. So that you can at least read it. On the other hand, there are also the blessings. For example, if you are just a user, I would download the last stable release. You can choose also the last beta, or whatever. If you are a developer, you may want to download the latest, even if it is in development. For all these cases, Metacello helps you with methods like lastVersion, etc. Finally, as I said, it doesn't depends too much in the tool. The same question you ask, apply to Universes, SqueakMap or whatever. In all of them you have different versions. And which version to load depends on the project and on the user (what do you want to do with it). Cheers Mariano
There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there?
Bill
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Mariano, You indeed seem to have realized what is bothering me. #latestVersion is helpful if it can be reasonably followed with #load - the examples that exist suggest otherwise. Even following the instructions to load the tutorial lead to a walkback, and prior to that, no evidence of methods that are mentioned in what little is online. We can talk about what is and is not Metacello's responsibilty, but the result as a whole is currently too fragile for its own good. Sorry, I know that will sting a bit for people working hard on this, but it needs either a central repository of version data (and/or additional expectations of the configuration classes), and it certainly needs better factoring. I am looking for Metacello loadLatestOf:'Seaside28' from:'here.there.org'. Failing that, add a Pharo version string to get the latest for it. This is too complicated at present. For my own sanity, I have Monticello "load latest" capability, which all I need for my own code. Picture 100 or so packages that have to get saved from one image and loaded into the next - newer is bettter, end of story. I am trying to find a way to make a stable interface to Metacello for external packages, but for now it all looks like a moving target. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Mariano Martinez Peck Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:01 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Metacello - the missing information?? On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: For any given cofiguration, how does one know which version to load? Ok, now I think I got what you meant with your question. This question is difficult to answer as it doesn't depends on Metacello. If you want to know which version exactly to load of a particular project, then you need to know about that project or ask the developers/maintainers. It is not a Metacello responsibility. If the person who writes the Configuration is cool, it will put the whole changes/changelog in the #description: of the version method. So that you can at least read it. On the other hand, there are also the blessings. For example, if you are just a user, I would download the last stable release. You can choose also the last beta, or whatever. If you are a developer, you may want to download the latest, even if it is in development. For all these cases, Metacello helps you with methods like lastVersion, etc. Finally, as I said, it doesn't depends too much in the tool. The same question you ask, apply to Universes, SqueakMap or whatever. In all of them you have different versions. And which version to load depends on the project and on the user (what do you want to do with it). Cheers Mariano There are incantations in the beginner workspace, but what happens for things not listed there? Bill _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
participants (5)
-
laurent laffont -
Mariano Martinez Peck -
Miguel Enrique Cobá Martinez -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Tudor Girba