Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated. ----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Its a bit late to make such a prominent change. Maybe in the Welcome info just note how to activate it. cheers -ben On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean@clipperadams.com> wrote:
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
comments about color is to be taken with care. Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) ) But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :) Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good? thanks, Norbert
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-) And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste. The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision problems.
On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
thanks,
Norbert
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-) And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste. The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision problems.
Exactly. When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking white screen.
Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a 3.0). I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the artefacts on the edges are not nice. If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/. That would be good use of consortium/association money for example. Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly for close to nil? Phil
On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
thanks,
Norbert
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 24/4/15 11:06, phil@highoctane.be a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote:
That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-) And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste. The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision problems.
Exactly. When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking white screen.
Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a 3.0).
I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the artefacts on the edges are not nice.
If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/. That would be good use of consortium/association money for example.
Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly for close to nil?
do you know the people? Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.
Phil
> On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name <mailto:norbert@hartl.name>> wrote: > > That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good? > > thanks, > > Norbert > >> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>: >> >> I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. >> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) ) >> >> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? >> I would like to hear some opinions here :) >> >> Esteban >> >> >>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote: >>> >>> comments about color is to be taken with care. >>> >>> >>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit : >>>> Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, >>>> and people are commenting that the UI looks dated. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> Cheers, >>>> Sean >>>> -- >>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html >>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 2:33 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Le 24/4/15 11:06, phil@highoctane.be a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-) And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste. The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision problems.
Exactly. When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking white screen.
Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a 3.0).
I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the artefacts on the edges are not nice.
If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/. That would be good use of consortium/association money for example.
Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly for close to nil?
do you know the people? Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.
This is a large community. One can get a full website design done for around $500. Got that done and was nice work. Alternatives (used too): https://www.freelancer.com/ Phil
Phil
On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
thanks,
Norbert
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com :
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
icon design and web design are two very different things. I seriously doubt we can get the icon set we need as cheap as you might think. but⦠we can always try :) Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 14:55, phil@highoctane.be wrote:
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 2:33 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
Le 24/4/15 11:06, phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu <mailto:sven@stfx.eu>> wrote: That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-) And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste. The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision problems.
Exactly. When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking white screen.
Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a 3.0).
I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the artefacts on the edges are not nice.
If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/ <https://en.99designs.be/>. That would be good use of consortium/association money for example.
Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly for close to nil?
do you know the people? Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.
This is a large community.
One can get a full website design done for around $500. Got that done and was nice work.
Alternatives (used too): https://www.freelancer.com/ <https://www.freelancer.com/>
Phil
Phil
On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name <mailto:norbert@hartl.name>> wrote:
That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
thanks,
Norbert
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html <http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
to find in the end that you get .... what you pay for ;) On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 4:43 PM Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
icon design and web design are two very different things. I seriously doubt we can get the icon set we need as cheap as you might think.
but⦠we can always try :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 14:55, phil@highoctane.be wrote:
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 2:33 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Le 24/4/15 11:06, phil@highoctane.be a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-) And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste. The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision problems.
Exactly. When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking white screen.
Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a 3.0).
I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the artefacts on the edges are not nice.
If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/. That would be good use of consortium/association money for example.
Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly for close to nil?
do you know the people? Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.
This is a large community.
One can get a full website design done for around $500. Got that done and was nice work.
Alternatives (used too): https://www.freelancer.com/
Phil
Phil
On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
thanks,
Norbert
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com :
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Am 24.04.2015 um 09:45 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu>:
That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)
No, they weren't. I had my font setup and after applying the dark theme the fonts were changed.
And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste. The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision problems.
Sure, that's why I said "I don't like it". I used dark themes in the last decades. But the setup I had it was hard to orientate my eyes. Area borders were not contrasting to the rest. Having multiple windows overlap makes it really hard to distinguish. So, if this is the cure for anybody then it's good :) Norbert
On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
thanks,
Norbert
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere" thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas. In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse", "Alt Browse Scoped") Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane. Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time. Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the "hier/flat" button gets tiring). I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before. Phil
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 24/04/2015 10:11, phil@highoctane.be a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere" thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.
In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse", "Alt Browse Scoped")
Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane. Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.
Like the Newspeak browser?
Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the "hier/flat" button gets tiring).
This one is difficult to solve.
I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.
I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my searches are well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid switching back and forth between two GUIs. It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and Spotter. When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very similar GUI: context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in the overall scheme), element/work pane on the right. Like all the tree-based browsers have done in the past, really (the Star browser, the Whisker browser). Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser with object-driven representations on the right... was that a project by Alain Plantec in the Squeak days? Thierry
Phil
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com
wrote:
Le 24/04/2015 10:11, phil@highoctane.be a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>> wrote:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere" thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.
In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse", "Alt Browse Scoped")
Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane. Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.
Like the Newspeak browser?
Don't know about that one.
Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the
"hier/flat" button gets tiring).
This one is difficult to solve.
Maybe a popup with the hierarchy would do (with some keybinding, like C-h)
I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using
it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.
I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my searches are well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid switching back and forth between two GUIs.
It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and Spotter. When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very similar GUI: context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in the overall scheme), element/work pane on the right. Like all the tree-based browsers have done in the past, really (the Star browser, the Whisker browser).
Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser with object-driven representations on the right... was that a project by Alain Plantec in the Squeak days?
Thierry
Phil
Le 24/04/2015 12:21, phil@highoctane.be a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:
Le 24/04/2015 10:11, phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>> wrote:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere" thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.
In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse", "Alt Browse Scoped")
Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane. Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.
Like the Newspeak browser?
Don't know about that one.
http://bracha.org/hopscotch-wasdett.pdf Look for the IDE description (i.e. Figure 1). A web browser metaphor, where you can open all elements and edit in place; not that different from what it could be in Self. I believe it's not as efficient in practice as it could be, for editing code. But for overall viewing, could be very effective. I toyed with multiple selection in the AltBrowser (i.e. opening multiple edit panes on the right) but never went that way. Maybe merging both could be an idea: Newspeak browser + tree navigation on the left :)
Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the "hier/flat" button gets tiring).
This one is difficult to solve.
Maybe a popup with the hierarchy would do (with some keybinding, like C-h)
In AltBrowser, I'm searching around how to do that, so what I have is: - menu navigation commands (super, first subclass, sibling) with a memory (back), but I'm not satisfied because often what I want is see both at the same time. Back really works well, but maybe with a button on the toolbar (or linked to the back and forward keys on my Chromebook? Not used to that keyboard layout yet) - What I use most often is: right click on superclass name in the description, choose browse to open a browser on the superclass... Not too bad for what I want. Works for any class name everywhere, which is very convenient. - I also have a hierarchy command which opens a browser scoped on the hierarchy. For certain types of searches, it can be very convenient (i.e. all callers of printString in the hierarchy...) But, still: three ways to do the same thing? Clearly could be better. Thierry
I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.
I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my searches are well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid switching back and forth between two GUIs.
It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and Spotter. When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very similar GUI: context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in the overall scheme), element/work pane on the right. Like all the tree-based browsers have done in the past, really (the Star browser, the Whisker browser).
Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser with object-driven representations on the right... was that a project by Alain Plantec in the Squeak days?
Thierry
Phil
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com
wrote:
Le 24/04/2015 12:21, phil@highoctane.be a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier@gmail.com <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote:
Le 24/04/2015 10:11, phil@highoctane.be <mailto:phil@highoctane.be> a écrit :
On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com>>> wrote:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere" thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.
In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse", "Alt Browse Scoped")
Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane. Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.
Like the Newspeak browser?
Don't know about that one.
http://bracha.org/hopscotch-wasdett.pdf
Look for the IDE description (i.e. Figure 1). A web browser metaphor, where you can open all elements and edit in place; not that different from what it could be in Self.
I believe it's not as efficient in practice as it could be, for editing code. But for overall viewing, could be very effective.
I toyed with multiple selection in the AltBrowser (i.e. opening multiple edit panes on the right) but never went that way. Maybe merging both could be an idea: Newspeak browser + tree navigation on the left :)
yes, that's more fiiting what I have in mind.
Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the "hier/flat" button gets tiring).
This one is difficult to solve.
Maybe a popup with the hierarchy would do (with some keybinding, like C-h)
In AltBrowser, I'm searching around how to do that, so what I have is:
- menu navigation commands (super, first subclass, sibling) with a memory (back), but I'm not satisfied because often what I want is see both at the same time. Back really works well, but maybe with a button on the toolbar (or linked to the back and forward keys on my Chromebook? Not used to that keyboard layout yet)
- What I use most often is: right click on superclass name in the description, choose browse to open a browser on the superclass... Not too bad for what I want. Works for any class name everywhere, which is very convenient.
- I also have a hierarchy command which opens a browser scoped on the hierarchy. For certain types of searches, it can be very convenient (i.e. all callers of printString in the hierarchy...)
But, still: three ways to do the same thing? Clearly could be better.
Thierry
I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.
I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my searches are well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid switching back and forth between two GUIs.
It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and Spotter. When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very similar GUI: context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in the overall scheme), element/work pane on the right. Like all the tree-based browsers have done in the past, really (the Star browser, the Whisker browser).
Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser with object-driven representations on the right... was that a project by Alain Plantec in the Squeak days?
Thierry
Phil
Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com>:
I disagree⦠DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while probably dated, is more âstandardâ. Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah⦠it works and works fine most of the time⦠but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog⦠I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so⦠:P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had it⦠we are just inheriting it :) )
But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a darker or clearer theme? I would like to hear some opinions here :)
I like the way pharo4 took towards finding and navigating. With spotter it is easy to find an entry point to the image graph. With the gt inspector you can navigate the graph then. Bringing those tools closer together could make it even better. Now we have find and navigate we could also have some help in creating things which is prerequisite to finding and navigating. My dream would be that e.g. when you find a class spotter has an action with shortcut to create an instance of that class. The inspector has a tab with an editor that lets you enter values (or better ways to do it). Those could be created by an object meta description. This could be something like magritte. But I hope we manage to build a better magritte based on slots. The short term real life goals are: - unify keyboard shortcuts. - improve event handling so that the use of a magic mouse does not produce dozens of events that make the UI go crazy Norbert
On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
comments about color is to be taken with care.
Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
In a related domain, I am launching a petition for a SmallScreenTheme People are working on 13" laptops, soon we will program pharo on tablets The default themes are a total waste of screen space with huge borders everywhere, large fonts, white spaces (or grey spaces) in the browser, ... I tried to work on one in the past, but did not go very far (only smaller fonts=8 and tighter scrollbars). Buttons need to be shrinked drastically, morphs in morphs in morphs all have borders 4 pixels wide, ... nicolas On 24/04/2015 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I am working on a 13inch 1080p laptop, that's fine, even with the larger font (which I am using). Maybe you want to have things working nicer on 1366x720p screens? Or 1280x800 for old MBPs? That's the cheap laptop rez (I've been cursed with having to work with one for a client). Phil On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Nicolas Anquetil < nicolas.anquetil@inria.fr> wrote:
In a related domain, I am launching a petition for a SmallScreenTheme
People are working on 13" laptops, soon we will program pharo on tablets
The default themes are a total waste of screen space with huge borders everywhere, large fonts, white spaces (or grey spaces) in the browser, ...
I tried to work on one in the past, but did not go very far (only smaller fonts=8 and tighter scrollbars). Buttons need to be shrinked drastically, morphs in morphs in morphs all have borders 4 pixels wide, ...
nicolas
On 24/04/2015 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 24/04/2015 10:19, Nicolas Anquetil a écrit :
In a related domain, I am launching a petition for a SmallScreenTheme
People are working on 13" laptops, soon we will program pharo on tablets
The default themes are a total waste of screen space with huge borders everywhere, large fonts, white spaces (or grey spaces) in the browser, ...
I usually work on a 720p screen: acer C720p (11"), hp DM1z (11"), dell E6230 (12", just slightly larger screen). First thing I do on 4.0: turn off Playground, GTInspector (take too much space), and use AltBrowser instead of Nautilus :)
I tried to work on one in the past, but did not go very far (only smaller fonts=8 and tighter scrollbars). Buttons need to be shrinked drastically, morphs in morphs in morphs all have borders 4 pixels wide, ...
You can try that, but just removing useless buttons and panes from GUI elements goes very far, and make the UI more responsive; small screens equal to low CPU power: for example, using the GT stuff or Nautilus on the HP DM1z does not make for a nice experience :( Thierry
On 24/04/15 10:19, Nicolas Anquetil wrote:
In a related domain, I am launching a petition for a SmallScreenTheme
and a large screen one too. 24 or 40" UHD has lots of empty space, and default browser sizes are too small The first thing to do is to make sure we don't create more legacy code with hardcoded sizes for fonts, borders, margins, padding. Stephan
+ 1
In a related domain, I am launching a petition for a SmallScreenTheme
and a large screen one too. 24 or 40" UHD has lots of empty space, and default browser sizes are too small
The first thing to do is to make sure we don't create more legacy code with hardcoded sizes for fonts, borders, margins, padding.
Stephan
you are asking for a different kind of IDE, not a theme. but yes⦠we need some way to allow that :) Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 10:19, Nicolas Anquetil <Nicolas.Anquetil@inria.fr> wrote:
In a related domain, I am launching a petition for a SmallScreenTheme
People are working on 13" laptops, soon we will program pharo on tablets
The default themes are a total waste of screen space with huge borders everywhere, large fonts, white spaces (or grey spaces) in the browser, ...
I tried to work on one in the past, but did not go very far (only smaller fonts=8 and tighter scrollbars). Buttons need to be shrinked drastically, morphs in morphs in morphs all have borders 4 pixels wide, ...
nicolas
On 24/04/2015 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 24/04/2015 15:44, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
you are asking for a different kind of IDE, not a theme. but yes⦠we need some way to allow that :)
But we do. It is allways possible to write and adapt a new IDE better suited to this or that screen size, and replace the default tools :) Now, doing it is a bit of work ;) Thierry
Esteban
On 24 Apr 2015, at 10:19, Nicolas Anquetil <Nicolas.Anquetil@inria.fr> wrote:
In a related domain, I am launching a petition for a SmallScreenTheme
People are working on 13" laptops, soon we will program pharo on tablets
The default themes are a total waste of screen space with huge borders everywhere, large fonts, white spaces (or grey spaces) in the browser, ...
I tried to work on one in the past, but did not go very far (only smaller fonts=8 and tighter scrollbars). Buttons need to be shrinked drastically, morphs in morphs in morphs all have borders 4 pixels wide, ...
nicolas
On 24/04/2015 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
----- Cheers, Sean -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 24/04/15 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
The advantages of a dark theme: - works well for photo/video apps where you don't want extra (colored) light; - works well in a dark environment; - provides little blue light, so doesn't influence sleep; - works for certain eye problems; don't apply to me much. I find reducing eye stress for me is mostly a question of adding more ambient light (also works well for my mood). In a light environment a light theme works much better. Stephan
The No1 thing that bothered me with Pharo was its white theme, found it both horrible (yes much worse than Squeak) and very tiresome for my eyes. Even worse was the white theme of Moose which made it impossible or really hard to see scrollbars , for me, so it was also a problem of contrast not just color. Moving to Dark theme , fundamentally changed my experience with Pharo and made coding much more relaxing. Then I decided to go one step further and implement my own theme, a dark blue theme and add to it a gui tool to allow for full customisation of colors (the theme with the tool are available from configuration Browsers with the name Nireas). Blue is my favorite color afterall, reminds me of sea, relaxing and full of positive energy. In the end it comes down to what you like and what you find more enjoyable to work with. For me it played a small role that the Dark theme is a new thing with its own set of problem since the change of colors had such a profound effect on my experience with Pharo. I cannot imagine myself going back to the default theme, ever. I would love to see more themes in the future, pink, yellow, brown, green and much more. On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:52 AM Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
On 24/04/15 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it, and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
The advantages of a dark theme: - works well for photo/video apps where you don't want extra (colored) light; - works well in a dark environment; - provides little blue light, so doesn't influence sleep; - works for certain eye problems; don't apply to me much. I find reducing eye stress for me is mostly a question of adding more ambient light (also works well for my mood). In a light environment a light theme works much better.
Stephan
participants (12)
-
Ben Coman -
Esteban Lorenzano -
kilon alios -
Marcus Denker -
Nicolas Anquetil -
Norbert Hartl -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Sean P. DeNigris -
Stephan Eggermont -
stepharo -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Thierry Goubier