https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51> I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece. Thanks. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Great job Richard! Lorenzo -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di horrido Inviato: giovedì 8 gennaio 2015 12:51 A: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Oggetto: [Pharo-dev] The Smalltalk Revolution https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51> I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece. Thanks. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
At this point it should probably be "This is not your grandfather's Smalltalk" :-) Larry
On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:51 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
haha yeah, thatâs a good one Larry! the smartest people I know, they knows how to laugh of themselves (actually their image or perceived weaknesses) elevating their morale :D We can do that!
On Jan 8, 2015, at 10:42 AM, Lawrence Kellogg <mac.hive@me.com> wrote:
At this point it should probably be "This is not your grandfather's Smalltalk" :-)
Larry
On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:51 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
For a project, I've had to look into Python and Django. After one evening installing and walking through the tutorial, I got the gist of it. There was a distinct feel: this thing provides out of the box facilities to make basic DB backed applications and neat APIs. We miss that with Seaside. That's killing us for early adopter traction. We need scaffholding facilities and database connectivity if we want to compete there. If we want to escape the best kept secret trap that is. We may be too smart for our own good. This article "Why Smart People Make Bad Entrepreneurs" / http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/240861#ixzz3ODI6RYR0 is really spot on. I am not advocating dumbing down what we do but we need to provide easier entry into the system. Talk is cheap, I know. Maybe could we put this on the table during Pharo Days at the consortium roundtable. Phil On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Lawrence Kellogg <mac.hive@me.com> wrote:
At this point it should probably be "This is not your grandfather's Smalltalk" :-)
Larry
On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:51 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Excellent point, Philippe! I feel similarly. In fact, this is precisely what inspired me to write my very *first* (and one of my most popular) Medium.com articles: https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-zen-of-web2py-ede59769d084 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-zen-of-web2py-ede59769d084> Web2py is still my favourite web framework (sorry, Seaside). philippeback wrote
For a project, I've had to look into Python and Django.
After one evening installing and walking through the tutorial, I got the gist of it.
There was a distinct feel: this thing provides out of the box facilities to make basic DB backed applications and neat APIs.
We miss that with Seaside. That's killing us for early adopter traction.
We need scaffholding facilities and database connectivity if we want to compete there. If we want to escape the best kept secret trap that is.
We may be too smart for our own good.
This article "Why Smart People Make Bad Entrepreneurs" / http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/240861#ixzz3ODI6RYR0 is really spot on.
I am not advocating dumbing down what we do but we need to provide easier entry into the system.
Talk is cheap, I know. Maybe could we put this on the table during Pharo Days at the consortium roundtable.
Phil
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Lawrence Kellogg <
mac.hive@
> wrote:
At this point it should probably be "This is not your grandfather's Smalltalk" :-)
Larry
On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:51 AM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51
<https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798344.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi people, I share 100% Phill's observations. Pharo is the best technical environment I have ever seen, but it is not "friendly" for those who are forced to use it for "stupid" application, where it is not so easy to find tools for everyday works. IMHO this is the reason for which Smalltalk loosed with Java, which was 100 times worst. Lorenzo -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di horrido Inviato: giovedì 8 gennaio 2015 15:31 A: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] The Smalltalk Revolution Excellent point, Philippe! I feel similarly. In fact, this is precisely what inspired me to write my very *first* (and one of my most popular) Medium.com articles: https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-zen-of-web2py-ede59769d084 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-zen-of-web2py-ede59769d084> Web2py is still my favourite web framework (sorry, Seaside). philippeback wrote
For a project, I've had to look into Python and Django.
After one evening installing and walking through the tutorial, I got the gist of it.
There was a distinct feel: this thing provides out of the box facilities to make basic DB backed applications and neat APIs.
We miss that with Seaside. That's killing us for early adopter traction.
We need scaffholding facilities and database connectivity if we want to compete there. If we want to escape the best kept secret trap that is.
We may be too smart for our own good.
This article "Why Smart People Make Bad Entrepreneurs" / http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/240861#ixzz3ODI6RYR0 is really spot on.
I am not advocating dumbing down what we do but we need to provide easier entry into the system.
Talk is cheap, I know. Maybe could we put this on the table during Pharo Days at the consortium roundtable.
Phil
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Lawrence Kellogg <
mac.hive@
> wrote:
At this point it should probably be "This is not your grandfather's Smalltalk" :-)
Larry
On Jan 8, 2015, at 6:51 AM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f5 1
<https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281 f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798344.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
In *the 3 hours* since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered *178 views* and *96 reads*, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/> which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles. Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote > https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798348.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
WHOA! My article is *ON FIRE!* Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads. Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted. horrido wrote * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/> which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
It was posted already on Hacker News or Reddit? If not, it sounds like is the right time to do that
On Jan 8, 2015, at 5:03 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
WHOA! My article is *ON FIRE!* Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47>> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads.
Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted.
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
horrido wrote * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/> which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html <http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>.
Yes, I posted to both Reddit and Hacker News simultaneously. Looks like it has a slower uptake at Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503> Is it possible that I've finally succeeded in igniting a revolution? I feel like Che Guevara. sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote
It was posted already on Hacker News or Reddit?
If not, it sounds like is the right time to do that
On Jan 8, 2015, at 5:03 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
WHOA! My article is *ON FIRE!* Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47>> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads.
Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted.
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
horrido wrote * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/>; which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html <http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html>; Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>;.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798440.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Well, I must say, my article really touched off a firestorm of controversy. The Reddit thread is *very* active! Hacker News is also fairly lively. This is where all of you do battle with the naysayers and critics.
From my standpoint, my article did its job. It served as a lightning rod to draw in developers from all over the world, from every other programming language. *Now that we have their attention*, our job is to try our best to persuade them.
If we can "sell" Smalltalk to enough people, we gain mindshare. Companies may hear about Smalltalk and possibly include it in their internal IT discussions. Smalltalk may even get back on the TIOBE language index! We must keep the public discourse alive. I encourage you to blog about it, write articles about it, comment on social media sites, etc. Because once things settle down, they will /forget/ about Smalltalk...again. horrido wrote
Yes, I posted to both Reddit and Hacker News simultaneously. Looks like it has a slower uptake at Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503>
Is it possible that I've finally succeeded in igniting a revolution? I feel like Che Guevara.
sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote
It was posted already on Hacker News or Reddit?
If not, it sounds like is the right time to do that
On Jan 8, 2015, at 5:03 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
WHOA! My article is *ON FIRE!* Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47>> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads.
Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted.
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
horrido wrote * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/>; which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html <http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html>; Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>;.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798499.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
In my humble opinion, there is no point battling naysayers: the energy required is best spent with people sharing a vision, improving the system and experimenting with concepts to help us tackle the complexity of large systems. Smalltalk is only the beginning, not the final solution. As for corporate and private computing: Trust is a big issue. With recent events, maybe a bigger issue than ever. Corporations and users need to trust their software. Smalltalk provides a degree of transparency and accessibility not found in other systems. If you don't know what your application is doing, you simply plug it apart and inspect it. The uniformity of the system makes this process far easier than inspecting a mountain of, for instance, C code. Then, there is the problem of language integration and obsoletion. It is funny that many corporations still rely on a handful of trendy languages to solve all kinds of problems. Some have already realized that polyglot programming is the way to go and Smalltalk provides an ideal basis to do this. However, we have to demonstrate that we can build better, larger systems in a far more productive and comprehensible fashion. What we need is to establish a unified systems architecture and Smalltalk is an ideal candidate. But there is still a long way ahead (but the malleability of Smalltalk might make it easy for us to explore new horizons and set new directions). The naysayers will, inevitably, follow. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798516.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 09 Jan 2015, at 10:22, Atlas <erde@chello.at> wrote:
In my humble opinion, there is no point battling naysayers: the energy required is best spent with people sharing a vision, improving the system and experimenting with concepts to help us tackle the complexity of large systems. Smalltalk is only the beginning, not the final solution.
Yes, indeed.
As for corporate and private computing: Trust is a big issue. With recent events, maybe a bigger issue than ever. Corporations and users need to trust their software. Smalltalk provides a degree of transparency and accessibility not found in other systems. If you don't know what your application is doing, you simply plug it apart and inspect it. The uniformity of the system makes this process far easier than inspecting a mountain of, for instance, C code. Then, there is the problem of language integration and obsoletion. It is funny that many corporations still rely on a handful of trendy languages to solve all kinds of problems. Some have already realized that polyglot programming is the way to go and Smalltalk provides an ideal basis to do this.
Yes.
However, we have to demonstrate that we can build better, larger systems in a far more productive and comprehensible fashion. What we need is to establish a unified systems architecture and Smalltalk is an ideal candidate. But there is still a long way ahead (but the malleability of Smalltalk might make it easy for us to explore new horizons and set new directions). The naysayers will, inevitably, follow.
I don't know about one unified architecture, the world is too diverse for that. Indeed the best thing to do is to build really cool real-life business applications that are successful. That is what the success stories are all about. Leading by example. The rest (people, resources, money, jobs) will follow. The goal of Pharo is to make that possible.
It is true that Reddit and HN are the frontier but "battling" is a terrible metaphor to embrace. You don't battle naysayers. Nobody has the money and emotional labor to do it. You don't battle them because if you do and you win, you will be "full of reason", less productive, with potentially transforming a naysayer in a hater and no real gain (no wealth creation in the process). The alternative is to indirectly prove them wrong by simply showing that Smalltalk is more than adequate to implement <insert naysayer objection here> Of course for that to happen you have to have a case, done with hard work on those frameworks and solutions, otherwise the shoot goes to your foot (and they will remember you as a bullshitter) This articles and discussions there are great to create opportunities for those who do cool stuff and have cases to show them up. That can create wealth. So, for those who do, that's the wrong time to remain silent and discrete and the right time to display what can be done. Act. If you can show cool stuff, act, case by case, it will elevates the whole niche and position you as a reference on that from mobile
On 09/01/2015, at 03:08, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I must say, my article really touched off a firestorm of controversy. The Reddit thread is *very* active! Hacker News is also fairly lively. This is where all of you do battle with the naysayers and critics.
From my standpoint, my article did its job. It served as a lightning rod to draw in developers from all over the world, from every other programming language. *Now that we have their attention*, our job is to try our best to persuade them.
If we can "sell" Smalltalk to enough people, we gain mindshare. Companies may hear about Smalltalk and possibly include it in their internal IT discussions. Smalltalk may even get back on the TIOBE language index!
We must keep the public discourse alive. I encourage you to blog about it, write articles about it, comment on social media sites, etc. Because once things settle down, they will /forget/ about Smalltalk...again.
horrido wrote
Yes, I posted to both Reddit and Hacker News simultaneously. Looks like it has a slower uptake at Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503>
Is it possible that I've finally succeeded in igniting a revolution? I feel like Che Guevara.
sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote
It was posted already on Hacker News or Reddit?
If not, it sounds like is the right time to do that
On Jan 8, 2015, at 5:03 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
WHOA! My article is *ON FIRE!* Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47>> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads.
Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted.
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
horrido wrote * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/>; which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html <http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html>; Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>;.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798499.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Just the year ahead, we will have some framework(s) to push that ahead. There is quite bit of ground work done as I see through last few years, it is beginning to be a fertile ground for Pharo to sprout some of the enterprise frameworks in due time. On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Sebastian Sastre < sebastian@flowingconcept.com> wrote:
It is true that Reddit and HN are the frontier but "battling" is a terrible metaphor to embrace.
You don't battle naysayers. Nobody has the money and emotional labor to do it. You don't battle them because if you do and you win, you will be "full of reason", less productive, with potentially transforming a naysayer in a hater and no real gain (no wealth creation in the process).
The alternative is to indirectly prove them wrong by simply showing that Smalltalk is more than adequate to implement <insert naysayer objection here>
Of course for that to happen you have to have a case, done with hard work on those frameworks and solutions, otherwise the shoot goes to your foot (and they will remember you as a bullshitter)
This articles and discussions there are great to create opportunities for those who do cool stuff and have cases to show them up.
That can create wealth.
So, for those who do, that's the wrong time to remain silent and discrete and the right time to display what can be done.
Act.
If you can show cool stuff, act, case by case, it will elevates the whole niche and position you as a reference on that
from mobile
On 09/01/2015, at 03:08, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, I must say, my article really touched off a firestorm of controversy. The Reddit thread is *very* active! Hacker News is also fairly lively. This is where all of you do battle with the naysayers and critics.
From my standpoint, my article did its job. It served as a lightning rod to draw in developers from all over the world, from every other programming language. *Now that we have their attention*, our job is to try our best to persuade them.
If we can "sell" Smalltalk to enough people, we gain mindshare. Companies may hear about Smalltalk and possibly include it in their internal IT discussions. Smalltalk may even get back on the TIOBE language index!
We must keep the public discourse alive. I encourage you to blog about it, write articles about it, comment on social media sites, etc. Because once things settle down, they will /forget/ about Smalltalk...again.
horrido wrote
Yes, I posted to both Reddit and Hacker News simultaneously. Looks like it has a slower uptake at Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503>
Is it possible that I've finally succeeded in igniting a revolution? I feel like Che Guevara.
sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote
It was posted already on Hacker News or Reddit?
If not, it sounds like is the right time to do that
On Jan 8, 2015, at 5:03 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
WHOA! My article is *ON FIRE!* Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47
< https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47&g... ;> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads.
Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted.
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
horrido wrote * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/>; which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51
< https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html < http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html>; Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>;.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798499.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I am curious. Which frameworks can we expect to see? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798561.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Okay, I think we're in agreement here. We should simply /show/ the world what we have to offer. Show them our frameworks and solutions. But in order to show them, they have to find us. That's what my article has done; that's what Reddit has done. You are absolutely correct, opportunities have opened up; they will find us. sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote
It is true that Reddit and HN are the frontier but "battling" is a terrible metaphor to embrace.
You don't battle naysayers. Nobody has the money and emotional labor to do it. You don't battle them because if you do and you win, you will be "full of reason", less productive, with potentially transforming a naysayer in a hater and no real gain (no wealth creation in the process).
The alternative is to indirectly prove them wrong by simply showing that Smalltalk is more than adequate to implement <insert naysayer objection here> Of course for that to happen you have to have a case, done with hard work on those frameworks and solutions, otherwise the shoot goes to your foot (and they will remember you as a bullshitter)
This articles and discussions there are great to create opportunities for those who do cool stuff and have cases to show them up.
That can create wealth.
So, for those who do, that's the wrong time to remain silent and discrete and the right time to display what can be done.
Act.
If you can show cool stuff, act, case by case, it will elevates the whole niche and position you as a reference on that
from mobile
On 09/01/2015, at 03:08, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
Well, I must say, my article really touched off a firestorm of controversy. The Reddit thread is *very* active! Hacker News is also fairly lively. This is where all of you do battle with the naysayers and critics.
From my standpoint, my article did its job. It served as a lightning rod to draw in developers from all over the world, from every other programming language. *Now that we have their attention*, our job is to try our best to persuade them.
If we can "sell" Smalltalk to enough people, we gain mindshare. Companies may hear about Smalltalk and possibly include it in their internal IT discussions. Smalltalk may even get back on the TIOBE language index!
We must keep the public discourse alive. I encourage you to blog about it, write articles about it, comment on social media sites, etc. Because once things settle down, they will /forget/ about Smalltalk...again.
horrido wrote
Yes, I posted to both Reddit and Hacker News simultaneously. Looks like it has a slower uptake at Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8856503>;
Is it possible that I've finally succeeded in igniting a revolution? I feel like Che Guevara.
sebastian@
wrote
It was posted already on Hacker News or Reddit?
If not, it sounds like is the right time to do that
On Jan 8, 2015, at 5:03 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
WHOA! My article is *ON FIRE!* Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47>> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads.
Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted.
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
horrido wrote * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/>; which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html <http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798436.html>; Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com <http://nabble.com/>;.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798499.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798570.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
WHOA! My article is
ON FIRE!
Seven hours into publication and it has achieved a staggering 2.7K views, 1.1K reads, and 9 recommendations. It's catching up to my best article ever, " The Case for Go Web Frameworks <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-case-for-go-web-frameworks-a791fcd79d47> ", which had 3.9K views and 2.4K reads.
Who would've thought that Smalltalk would be such a hot topic?! I am truly flabbergasted. horrido wrote
In
the 3 hours
since this article was published at Medium, it has garnered
178 views
and
96 reads
24 hours into publication, my article has achieved a phenomenal 10K views, 4K reads, and 11 recommendations, making it one of the most popular articles of its kind at Medium (geek-oriented, programming-oriented). We must use the momentum we've built up to our advantage. Over the next little while, I expect a lot of visitors to our nexus of social media sites (WordPress, Twitter, Facebook, Google+, LinkedIn). *We only get one chance to show our stuff, to explain why they should give Smalltalk a try.* Moreover, if we can keep up this new level of awareness, I guarantee you that /eventually/ the IT press will notice Smalltalk (and Smalltalk Renaissance) and write us up. *This is exactly what we want!!!* Let's harness the power of our passion and conviction to raise public consciousness and make 2015 the Year of Smalltalk! horrido wrote * * * * * * * *
, and counting! This makes it easily the most "hot" article I've ever written. It is currently at the top of Medium's front page <https://medium.com/> which is reserved for "hot" or "trending" articles.
Thanks to everyone! horrido wrote
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798566.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
We're getting a spirited debate at Reddit <http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2rquwv/the_smalltalk_revolution...> . Perhaps someone can respond to BigPeteB's complaint: "Uh, except that every other computing system in common use is file-based. When I worked in Squeak, the only way to share code was to export objects to file (tricky, since there's no way to guarantee that you got all of the prerequisites you might need) or share your entire 50MB code image. How exactly is either of those supposed to work in a modern development environment?" -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798407.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Funnily enough, one guy commented: 'The hype of the article is grating ("Smalltalk is the future of software development"? Really?' Yes, really! That's the point of Smalltalk Renaissance: to build type, to create a brand, to draw attention. Looks like it's succeeding! philippeback wrote
Added some answers over there.â
Phil
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798439.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Great Job on the article! I am glad to have found a vibrant and ambitious community. Before I go into details, I have to mention that I am new to the system, so I am sorry, if I am missing anything or sound pretentious and I'd be happy to be corrected. (Brace yourselves, a wall of text is coming!) A Brief Note on the State of the Art You mentioned the very important issue of "offloading cognitive burden" which deserves in-depth discussion. Before I go into details, I have to mention that I am new to the system, so I am sorry, if I am missing anything or sound pretentious and I'd be happy to be corrected. In your article you write that: *"There is virtually no cognitive load on your brain!"* While this is a highly idealized statement about Smalltalk (I'll elaborate on that), you have my opinion identified the *ultimate goal* of any development environment. I believe that Pharo is an ideal candidate to get us closer but there is much work to be done. I have to agree with Phil that "we need to provide easier entry into the system" and I'd like to extend this statement: we need an easier entry point to *every aspect* of the system. (I use the terms systems, environment and applications interchangeably). I really like the live programming workflow, the code editor and class browser but there are hundreds of classes and even more methods and it is not obvious how to perform more complex tasks (such as GUI building). While the liveliness and uniformity of the design allows exploring all corners of the running system (which really is great and a huge leap forward compared to almost all systems), it is very easy to get lost and buried in class browser windows and additional documentation. Often I forget what I was actually trying to do: the size of (my) short term memory is too limited to keep track of all the things I found out, am still trying to find out, things not working, things partly assembled and so on. Packages, Protocols and Categories are simply not enough to structure complex systems consisting of myriads of interacting objects. Suggestions A Hypermedia System for Smalltalk/Pharo What we need *is to distill the knowledge and procedures *required to perform specific tasks into the environment itself. I imagine a hypermedia system which helps me to organize my objects and to learn new things. Douglas Engelbart's conceptual framework for agumenting human intellect provides a huge source of ideas [5]. For example, it would be great to have the "Pharo by Example" book be represented in such a system. It could be a mindmap reflecting the chapter structures, some nodes might link to objects or methods that can be used directly to combine new objects. For example, by invoking a hypermedia search, I might search for "draw morph" and I might see a mindmap reflecting Chapter 11.4 "Creating and drawing your own morphs" with all artifacts needed to assemble a particular morph in the environment. It would be also great to be able to use objects as search patterns instead of strings only. Also I think it would greatly /ameliorate the problem/ of documentation: When constructing a new system or improving an old one, there is always a learning process involved. During this process, one organizes material, does research, experiments and so on. If all these steps where directly transferred into the hypermedia system, documentation comes almost for free. Other people trying to understand the system, learning new things, could enrich the already existing structures. I think Chimera [2] is a great example of such a system. More Directness I think it would be very beneficial if we also *incorporated the Look and Feel of the Self System *[1] to allow for quick prototyping and more direct interaction. This way, I could simply drag a "onDraw:" method from the handbook onto the live morph I am viewing. Also, I'd like see the references of an object in a changeable graph structure. The inspector is certainly a great tool, but compared to Self it sometimes feels clumsy. The only issue is that Self is prototype based, so there is always one layer of indirection, but it could be hidden by modifying the class when dragging an method into an object. (If this already has been done, then it should be standard environment!). Data-Flow Programming Messages that change state (as opposed to pure computations) and dynamic dispatch mechanisms are heavily used in OO systems and, unfortunately, no exception to Smalltalk. They add a lot of cognitive burden and writing event handlers, patching them together, having *invisible* message flow is certainly very taxing. Although ideas from functional (reactive) programming, to relieve some of the burden, have found its way into OO systems and languages such as Scala [3], I think there are other, more direct ways to deal with reactivity and side-effects that should be explored. Using the hypermedia kernel, events and pure computations could be linked to attributes to facilitate flow-based programming. Although only networks with a fixed topology can be effectively modeled this way, I assume that most parts of, for instance GUI systems, could be made more self-explanatory. Wouldn't it be nice to visually connect a button event to a method? Or a label to a clock? Workable examples could be of course, reachable in the hypermedia system. Memory as a First Class Citizen Further ideas are to make *memory a first class citizen*: I think that memory should be, just as an object, part of the hypermedia system, or a hypermedia system itself. Since it represents the state of the system, it should be self-explanatory. Tradtionally, memory is allocated in indivisible, incomprehensible and (inaccessible) lumps to processes. However, I think memory should not only contain data but also interpretable metadata about the contents of its cells and relationships.
From a Smalltalk viewpoint, I imagine that every attribute of an object is visibly connected to a memory location with a name (and further metadata). This way, computations running in different processes or runtime environments could simply connect to the memory, consume data and write it back. This would also make it easy to have true *heterogeneous flow-based programming*. (Conversions between data types could be just plugged in between).
Ideally, Smalltalk takes the place of current operating systems (such as SqueakNOS), running the hypermedia kernel and providing access to the *conceptual* memory. Languages such as C, C++ or Haskell could then be used to implement /pure computations/ and they could be attached to memory cells, waiting for input. Also, security policies can be expressed in a uniform way. There is also a firm theoretical foundation (the Ambient Calculus) which can be used to express hairy details about security policies. Ultimately, I think it would greatly benefit interoperability. There is also a huge potential benefit to testing: One simply has to identify the input network of the memory, and record a subset or all of the patterns occurring in the other part of the system. Then, by replaying the input, one can compare the resulting pattern with the record. Also, undo operations could be performed by changing cell values back to their recorded images. Smalltalk everywhere I imagine that every part of the computer contained such a Smalltalk hypermedia system describing the objects and relations in its memory contents. This would make it easy to browse, visualize and manipulate computer components, network infrastructure, anything really. With the vast improvement of computer hardware, in particular programmable logic, having a Smalltalk interpreter on almost every device seems quite feasible to me. The future of Smalltalk is indeed grand! (I hope I have not got delusional at this point). Atlas Project I have started working on a prototype, I am anxious to test some of the ideas I proposed. There is much uncharted territory and Pharo seems to be a great platform and vehicle to explore new ideas. Are there people willing to contribute, help? What are your opinions? [1] http://www.selflanguage.org/ [2] https://www.ics.uci.edu/~taylor/ics228/chimera.pdf [3] http://scg.unibe.ch/archive/papers/Reng09bLanguageShootout.pdf [4] http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/176887/files/DeprecatingObservers2012.pdf [5] http://www.dougengelbart.org/pubs/augment-3906.html -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798412.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi Richard, On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 3:51 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Instead of "Second, Smalltalk is also a programming environment or IDE", I would say "Second, Smalltalk is also a live programming environment with it's own integrated and extensible IDE". Instead of "With the integrated debugger, you are endowed with great power to prototype your application." I would say "The integrated debugger is exceptionally powerful. Not only can you inspect the execution state, edit and continue, you can also define new classes and methods, in the context of a live application you are developing. You can actually program in the debugger. Start by defining just a test and continue from there." Instead of just "Class browser, code editor, object inspector, debugger, and workspace are an integrated whole.". I would add "All these tools, even the compiler and the class system itself, are implemented in Smalltalk. You can extend the tools to fit the way that you work, and because the system is live, you can do so while you're programming. It really is the ultimate tailorable programing system." HTH Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- best, Eliot
It sounds like you should be writing an essay for Smalltalk Renaissance. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798497.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
In fact, I'm looking for someone to tackle essay Topic #1. Care to try? Eliot Miranda-2 wrote
Hi Richard,
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 3:51 AM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Instead of "Second, Smalltalk is also a programming environment or IDE", I would say "Second, Smalltalk is also a live programming environment with it's own integrated and extensible IDE".
Instead of "With the integrated debugger, you are endowed with great power to prototype your application." I would say "The integrated debugger is exceptionally powerful. Not only can you inspect the execution state, edit and continue, you can also define new classes and methods, in the context of a live application you are developing. You can actually program in the debugger. Start by defining just a test and continue from there."
Instead of just "Class browser, code editor, object inspector, debugger, and workspace are an integrated whole.". I would add "All these tools, even the compiler and the class system itself, are implemented in Smalltalk. You can extend the tools to fit the way that you work, and because the system is live, you can do so while you're programming. It really is the ultimate tailorable programing system."
HTH
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- best, Eliot
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798498.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi Richard, On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 8:24 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
In fact, I'm looking for someone to tackle essay Topic #1. Care to try?
I'm sorry. I'd love to. But I don't have the time. If I offered I would only fail and disappoint you. Forgive me. When time allows I will try and commit to writing something. Until then I must focus. You've made Smalltalk Revlution/Smalltalk Renaissance your focus. Mine is on the VM. More power to all of us! Eliot Miranda-2 wrote
Hi Richard,
On Thu, Jan 8, 2015 at 3:51 AM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51 < https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-smalltalk-revolution-ee245c281f51>;
I welcome your comments. It's not too late to edit the piece.
Instead of "Second, Smalltalk is also a programming environment or IDE", I would say "Second, Smalltalk is also a live programming environment with it's own integrated and extensible IDE".
Instead of "With the integrated debugger, you are endowed with great power to prototype your application." I would say "The integrated debugger is exceptionally powerful. Not only can you inspect the execution state, edit and continue, you can also define new classes and methods, in the context of a live application you are developing. You can actually program in the debugger. Start by defining just a test and continue from there."
Instead of just "Class browser, code editor, object inspector, debugger, and workspace are an integrated whole.". I would add "All these tools, even the compiler and the class system itself, are implemented in Smalltalk. You can extend the tools to fit the way that you work, and because the system is live, you can do so while you're programming. It really is the ultimate tailorable programing system."
HTH
Thanks.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- best, Eliot
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Revolution-tp4798320p4798498.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- best, Eliot
participants (9)
-
Atlas -
Eliot Miranda -
horrido -
Lawrence Kellogg -
Lorenzo Schiavina -
phil＠highoctane.be -
S Krish -
Sebastian Sastre -
Sven Van Caekenberghe