let's start to get more political here: - first did VW ever considered any community? - second does it make sense not to change? - third what is a better smalltalk? Yes of course been fragmented is bad but this is like that. Stef On Dec 18, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:

Am 18.12.2010 um 20:16 schrieb Torsten Bergmann:

...

Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...

Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image so one can easy setup an own (internal) server

I want a smalltalksource for all Smalltalk dialects. And I don't want to fear that any company or manager gone wild could cancel it. Really, the Smalltalk community is small and fragmented, and every dialect is trying to have its own version management and project hosting. This is really bad IMHO. So many things got already lost or are fallen into oblivion because they were hosted somewhere nobody knows or cares anymore.

Sigh, Andreas

Stef, Do you mean better than VW or Pharo? Dolphin is damn good; the problem there is Windows itself. On technical grounds, VW is excellent. Its feature set is bigger than Dolphin's, and so is its price tag. When I first started getting very concerned about Microsoft's whims knocking me out of business, I contacted Cincom (or perhaps it was a predecessor??) and asked for a price. They literally asked me "what's it worth to you?" Whether that is scary or innovative, I'm not sure. It was not something I was ready to take the accountant du jour. Perhaps VW would have a community grow around it were it not for the runtime fees?? Just asking. The pricing model certainly stopped me from even trying to adopt it on Linux several years ago. Smalltalk/X and MT both have their followers, or at least had strong ones when I last looked: I didn't get it. X was unstable, and MT wasn't finished, IMHO. Again, that is old news at this point and would need to be re-evaluated. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse@inria.fr] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 4:02 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Dear Santa ... let's start to get more political here: - first did VW ever considered any community? - second does it make sense not to change? - third what is a better smalltalk? Yes of course been fragmented is bad but this is like that. Stef On Dec 18, 2010, at 8:38 PM, Andreas Wacknitz wrote:

Janko Mivšek wrote:

- Namespaces

+1 - that would be a very nice present.

A global Information System for Smalltalk, a system directed towards smalltalk projects and **people** (I mean smalltalkers whether dev or user) :). Ideally directed towards all smalltalk flavors (because more than the code, design discussions, algorithms are the most valuable information and this is just too sparse now) but that could be just Pharo/Squeak as a start, or even just Pharo to avoid too much hassle... I might not be really clear below but here's what I'd love as a central repository/system for smalltalkers (if Santa exists, he will understand me anyway ;o) ). This system will be before all oriented towards community, people, developpers so people can discuss design, see the profile of other smalltalkers, have an overall view on a project, its state, what people think about, etc etc... We need a better VISIBILITY on the existing (projects and people), and retrieval according to our taste... We need to characterize projets and above all people (that's the difficult point because this could led to offensive remarks. We should think a lot on how to objectively characterize developpers and then projects to stay polite and nice) Here are some examples of the kind of mechanisms I'd like in such a tool: (1) I like a lot Mr. R. developing style. Far more professional than what I can do, so I trust his project if I need to reuse. For some people, this might be too much engineered (any resemblance to persons living or programming in smalltalk is purely coincidental ). Anyway, I **trust** his projects and what he thinks on others. So I'd like to get the appropriate feedback (ie. what are the projects he cares about). (2) Mr C. has a similar profile as me, so I'm "automatically" interested in what he does and what he thinks (comments, discussion), etc... (3) Automatic discovery and notifications on "pieces of interest" -> project, dicussions, etc... (for instance, I'm not that interested right now in VM stuffs...) To me, it's just a discussion on how to characterize a project and a smalltalker (I don't say it's easy), then how to compare them (I can help there - on comparison on fuzzy entities). All the rest is UI and Tool stuffs. ***One simple subset and starting point would be to have a simple web page by smalltalkers*** Each user/developper will be automatically registered on that system (be the page be private by default) This page (url - maybe just the fragment) could be the unique identifier of the developer. No more initials, or combination of names, instead we have a classic login/password. Then it could be the entry point for a larger system... why not in squeaksource 2 ? Thanks Santa, I hope you get the idea :) YAD Cédrick (Yet Another Dreamer) ps: to finish some random thoughts: -Organised by projets -- project (code + comments by other + vote + blog) -- platforms (backup for legacy ones - ex: works for squeak 3.8, so we keep a **working** one click version somewhere) -- documentation (for a specific version) - again blog + interactive documentation (video associated to specific versions, **list of Deubug It methods in certain context***) -- code indicators (number of...) -- code (bleeding) + RC versions (+comments from others) (metacello ? only pharo... metametacello :) ) - dependancies... -- have a clear "time scale" of the project (when started, when released, still developped...) -Organized by people/group --profile/group description, interest, ... --automatic mailing list for groups --all projects done, even just started

Hi Eliot, On 20. 12. 2010 20:00, Eliot Miranda wrote:

- Namespaces - Breakpoints - Monticello/Metacello directly from browser - portable async FFI - SOAP/WSDL with object mapping and one-click tool - even more usability enhancements - rock solid image and VM for image-only persistency - more Eliot :)

:) But this could mean lots of things. a) I'm not doing enough, b) I need to put on weight, c) my jokes are great, d) you want specific things done in the VM area. So while this made me laugh and so far is inspiring (I mean, if you really do mean a) I'm going to have a miserable xmas, and my wife is going to be miserable if you mean b) ) I'd love for you to make some specific suggestions as to what more Eliot might mean (besides eating a /lot/ over xmas to try and create a few more kilos of Eliot).

:) Being a bit short on time to pair your humoresque style :), let me jump strait into what "more Eliot" means to me: - sooner a really good open-source Smalltalk VM on pair and extending VW one. That is, more opportunity to you to get your ideas how should a VM look like to fly towards a goal, - immutability/read only objects or some other mechanism to detect object's change easily, - rock solid, stable and reliable VM and image for us the "image as a database" guys, who are more numerous as one wants to confess :) Again, VW is such an example, very reliable for such persistency, for which you deserves quite some gratitude :) Well, let me finish, otherwise you'll start right now. But I don't understand: if you start right now, you won't have a time to get fat, if you don't start now, you',ll get fat from all those Christmas food. Your wife is going to be miserable in any case...:) Best regards Janko -- Janko Mivšek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

On 18 December 2010 22:04, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:

Only that? :)

I was really a nice boy and I want more :) But I have the impression that santa is busy and we will have to do it ourselves.

hey, don't spoil the play :) (sure we can be Santa for ourselves)

For my wish list I sent it a while ago as an answer to andres.

Yes, Santa, read Stef's wish list please!

Stef

...

Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...

Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for   all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image   so one can easy setup an own (internal) server

Thx T.

-- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail

-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard.

"I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard." Wow... What's a quote! :-) Alexandre

On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote:

...

Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...

Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image so one can easy setup an own (internal) server

Thx T.

-- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

I remember to have seen a presentation from Intel when they opened their center in Ireland. They are targeting a 64 core CPU. I am not expert in concurrency, but there is clearly more than a paper to write about. Alexandre On 20 Dec 2010, at 20:29, Stefan Marr wrote:

Hi Alexandre:

On 20 Dec 2010, at 23:54, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

...

"I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard."

Wow... What's a quote! All kidding aside, the amount of concurrency related constructs in Smalltalk is very manageable. And interestingly, form what I have seen so far, there are a number of problematic idioms which make things fast on the standard VM, but rely on scheduling guarantees.

My gut tells me, that a significant number of those bugs which are still bugging me, could be found with pattern detection, code smell analysis or what ever you want to call it. They should be formalizable and detectable.

We would have people with the right tools and knowledge at the lab, unfortunately with the wrong interests... And there should be a paper in there. Any volunteers? ;)

Best regards Stefan

...

:-)

Alexandre

...

On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote:

...

Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...

Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image so one can easy setup an own (internal) server

Thx T.

-- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Dear Santa, I would like you to drop your f/*(«»@ XMas Present Management software which has tons of bugs (children rarely have what they want. Myself included) and written in this crappy programming language called <the one you hate most />. Please use Pharo + Seaside to develop a far better software so we can finally enters our wishlist online and have a tracking number to be sure our present will be on time or provide justification why we cannot have it. Best Regards, Laurent On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 3:22 AM, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito@gmail.com

wrote:

Dear Santa,

You suck, I don't believe in you. I'm sure you don't even know how to program.

PS: But if you're reading this, I just want more time, so I can help to program the others' wishes :P. That'll be fun :)

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre@bergel.eu>wrote:

...

I remember to have seen a presentation from Intel when they opened their center in Ireland. They are targeting a 64 core CPU. I am not expert in concurrency, but there is clearly more than a paper to write about.

Alexandre

On 20 Dec 2010, at 20:29, Stefan Marr wrote:

...

Hi Alexandre:

On 20 Dec 2010, at 23:54, Alexandre Bergel wrote:

...

"I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard."

Wow... What's a quote! All kidding aside, the amount of concurrency related constructs in Smalltalk is very manageable. And interestingly, form what I have seen so far, there are a number of problematic idioms which make things fast on the standard VM, but rely on scheduling guarantees.

My gut tells me, that a significant number of those bugs which are still bugging me, could be found with pattern detection, code smell analysis or what ever you want to call it. They should be formalizable and detectable.

We would have people with the right tools and knowledge at the lab, unfortunately with the wrong interests... And there should be a paper in there. Any volunteers? ;)

Best regards Stefan

...

:-)

Alexandre

...

On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote:

...

Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes

for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...

...

...

...

Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image so one can easy setup an own (internal) server

Thx T.

-- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren:

http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail

...

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr <http://soft.vub.ac.be/%7Esmarr> Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr <http://soft.vub.ac.be/%7Esmarr> Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

No, maybe Santa has them already... Bye the way, the last discussion I started on that topic was completely ignored, and I am not sure whether fixing it in your images is worth it, since it will impact performance on standard VMs. Best regards Stefan On 21 Dec 2010, at 11:53, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

Stefan do you have the fixes? Stef

On Dec 20, 2010, at 11:27 PM, Stefan Marr wrote:

...

I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard.

On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote:

...

Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...

Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image so one can easy setup an own (internal) server

Thx T.

-- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

Don't know, and I have only fixed one bug at the moment. And, it wont make it onto the list of high priority tasks anytime soon, thats why I ask Santa to have a look. The patch/workaround was mentioned here: http://forum.world.st/Delay-class-not-fit-for-RoarVM-tt3035265.html#none On 21 Dec 2010, at 12:11, Tudor Girba wrote:

How big is the impact?

Doru

On 21 Dec 2010, at 12:05, Stefan Marr wrote:

...

No, maybe Santa has them already...

Bye the way, the last discussion I started on that topic was completely ignored, and I am not sure whether fixing it in your images is worth it, since it will impact performance on standard VMs.

Best regards Stefan

On 21 Dec 2010, at 11:53, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

...

Stefan do you have the fixes? Stef

On Dec 20, 2010, at 11:27 PM, Stefan Marr wrote:

...

I would like a Pharo Core image running nicely 16 core on the RoarVM. That requires just to fix a few more concurrency bugs, should not be to hard.

On 18 Dec 2010, at 20:16, Torsten Bergmann wrote:

...

Only a few days until christmas. You should tell Santa your wishes for Pharo here on the list - who knows maybe in one of the next releases or announcements...

Let me be the first: - easy to use foreign interface including callback support for all major platforms - reliable (new) squeaksource which includes a one-click image so one can easy setup an own (internal) server

Thx T.

-- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

-- www.tudorgirba.com

"Next time you see your life passing by, say 'hi' and get to know her."

-- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

On 21 Dec 2010, at 13:19, Luc Fabresse wrote:

Hi Stefan,

Did you enter a bug entry? because it is easier to not forget when there is one. No, as I said, I am not sure whether should be changed in the standard image. I am not even sure whether you should consider it a bug, it is certainly not with regard to the "VM/scheduler spec".

http://forum.world.st/Delay-class-not-fit-for-RoarVM-tt3035265.html#none

Best regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

Here's my wish list : 1) No more useless, never-ending, ad nauseam discussions/arguments comparing Pharo with Squeak or any Smalltalk with any other Smalltalk implementation. May I add that, I suppose, I am like most people on this list : I love Smalltalk regardless of which implementation it is. I've worked with ObjectWorks, VisualWorks, VSE, Pharo, ObjectStudio, Dolphin, Squeak, VisualAge and I keep an eye on all other implementations, from GNU Smalltalk to Smalltalk/X, Smalltalk MT and even the newborn Silverlight. Some days, I might prefer Dolphin for some job, others I could recommend VisualAge, in other cases I'd go with Squeak or Pharo. I'll never say that Smalltalk A is better than Smalltalk B because they're all different, they all have their strengths and weeknesses, particularities and deficiencies. Let's try to be a community, part of the greater Smalltalk family. Let's always remember that we all came to be fans of a particular implementation of Smalltalk primarily because we fell in love with the language and it's concepts FIRST, not because of a debugger, the feature of a certain browser, not because of a package/library, not because of a platform/OS, not because of the way one tool packages/strips/shrinks a production image or any other reason... We're all, first and foremost, SMALLTALKERS... I don't consider myself more a Pharoer than a Cincomer or a Squeaker... I'd rather be called a Smalltalker. My 2 cents. ----------------- Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero. (Albert Einstein)