*Opportunities.. for Pharo..* *The email, sent to InfoWorld on Tuesday by a former high-ranking Java official, claimed to feature details from inside Oracle. It said the company was becoming a cloud company, competing with Salesforce, and âJava has no interest to them anymore.â The subject line cited âJava â planned obsolescence.â* *Oracle is not interested in empowering its competitors and doesnât want to share innovation, the email further alleges. The company is slimming down Java EE (Enterprise Edition), but it also doesnât want anyone else to work on Java or Java EE and is sidelining the JCP (Java Community Process). âThey have a winner-take-all mentality and they are not interested in collaborating,â said the email. âProprietary product work will be done on WebLogic, and thereâll be a proprietary microservices platform.â WebLogic is the Java application server Oracle acquired when it bought BEA Systems in 2008.* https://dzone.com/articles/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-java-should-...
Clickbait ! ClickBAIT !!!!! Let me remind you that bloggers have been declaring Java dead for over a decade now. Java still goes strong and is the undisputed king of Enterprise coding no other language can even remotely touch it, mainly because of its huge powerful library made for big businesses. Pharo cannot compete with Java, it does not have the resources to, right now the only true competitor to java is C# and even C# though backed by Micro$oft , still it lags very much behind it in terms of popularity. Let me also remind you that Java is the language that mutilated the then undisputed king of of programming languages C++ stealing away tons of its coders. Probably the biggest migration of coders ever. Only fools underestimate Java. Java is big, Java is ugly, Java is powerful and Java is here to stay for a long, long time. My advice to Pharo, keep doing what you know best, helping lone coders and small teams compete with large companies in terms of productivity. Dont compete, innovate. On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:03 PM S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com> wrote:
*Opportunities.. for Pharo..*
*The email, sent to InfoWorld on Tuesday by a former high-ranking Java official, claimed to feature details from inside Oracle. It said the company was becoming a cloud company, competing with Salesforce, and âJava has no interest to them anymore.â The subject line cited âJava â planned obsolescence.â*
*Oracle is not interested in empowering its competitors and doesnât want to share innovation, the email further alleges. The company is slimming down Java EE (Enterprise Edition), but it also doesnât want anyone else to work on Java or Java EE and is sidelining the JCP (Java Community Process). âThey have a winner-take-all mentality and they are not interested in collaborating,â said the email. âProprietary product work will be done on WebLogic, and thereâll be a proprietary microservices platform.â WebLogic is the Java application server Oracle acquired when it bought BEA Systems in 2008.*
https://dzone.com/articles/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-java-should-...
Perfect Dimitris! Lorenzo Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Dimitris Chloupis Inviato: mercoledì 25 novembre 2015 11:29 A: Pharo Development List Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] Java Future Clickbait ! ClickBAIT !!!!! Let me remind you that bloggers have been declaring Java dead for over a decade now. Java still goes strong and is the undisputed king of Enterprise coding no other language can even remotely touch it, mainly because of its huge powerful library made for big businesses. Pharo cannot compete with Java, it does not have the resources to, right now the only true competitor to java is C# and even C# though backed by Micro$oft , still it lags very much behind it in terms of popularity. Let me also remind you that Java is the language that mutilated the then undisputed king of of programming languages C++ stealing away tons of its coders. Probably the biggest migration of coders ever. Only fools underestimate Java. Java is big, Java is ugly, Java is powerful and Java is here to stay for a long, long time. My advice to Pharo, keep doing what you know best, helping lone coders and small teams compete with large companies in terms of productivity. Dont compete, innovate. On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:03 PM S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com> wrote: Opportunities.. for Pharo.. The email, sent to InfoWorld on Tuesday by a former high-ranking Java official, claimed to feature details from inside Oracle. It said the company was becoming a cloud company, competing with Salesforce, and âJava has no interest to them anymore.â The subject line cited âJava â planned obsolescence.â Oracle is not interested in empowering its competitors and doesnât want to share innovation, the email further alleges. The company is slimming down Java EE (Enterprise Edition), but it also doesnât want anyone else to work on Java or Java EE and is sidelining the JCP (Java Community Process). âThey have a winner-take-all mentality and they are not interested in collaborating,â said the email. âProprietary product work will be done on WebLogic, and thereâll be a proprietary microservices platform.â WebLogic is the Java application server Oracle acquired when it bought BEA Systems in 2008. https://dzone.com/articles/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-java-should-... <https://dzone.com/articles/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-java-should-...> &utm_source=Spotlight&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=java%202015-11-24
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists. The nice part about the Pharo story is this, as Stef says: Pharo is yours. What Pharo is and becomes is up to us, the community. Not what any major corporation says it is or is not going to do. Pharo is what we make it to be. Pharo will become what we make it to become. It is nice to have organizations and corporations as part of the community, such as INRIA, etc. They offer substantial resources and are a blessing. And the nice thing is that Pharo does not need an Oracle size corporation to keep it going and viable. Can Java say that? Time will tell. Could Java have gotten to where it is without it? As you say, let's keep Pharo going so that it can empower the little guy or smaller business. :) Shalom. Jimmie On 11/25/2015 04:29 AM, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
Clickbait ! ClickBAIT !!!!!
Let me remind you that bloggers have been declaring Java dead for over a decade now. Java still goes strong and is the undisputed king of Enterprise coding no other language can even remotely touch it, mainly because of its huge powerful library made for big businesses. Pharo cannot compete with Java, it does not have the resources to, right now the only true competitor to java is C# and even C# though backed by Micro$oft , still it lags very much behind it in terms of popularity. Let me also remind you that Java is the language that mutilated the then undisputed king of of programming languages C++ stealing away tons of its coders. Probably the biggest migration of coders ever.
Only fools underestimate Java.
Java is big, Java is ugly, Java is powerful and Java is here to stay for a long, long time.
My advice to Pharo, keep doing what you know best, helping lone coders and small teams compete with large companies in terms of productivity. Dont compete, innovate.
On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:03 PM S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com <mailto:krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com>> wrote:
/Opportunities.. for Pharo.. /
/ /
/The email, sent to InfoWorld on Tuesday by a former high-ranking Java official, claimed to feature details from inside Oracle. It said the company was becoming a cloud company, competing with Salesforce, and âJava has no interest to them anymore.â The subject line cited âJava â planned obsolescence.â/
/Oracle is not interested in empowering its competitors and doesnât want to share innovation, the email further alleges. The company is slimming down Java EE (Enterprise Edition), but it also doesnât want anyone else to work on Java or Java EE and is sidelining the JCP (Java Community Process). âThey have a winner-take-all mentality and they are not interested in collaborating,â said the email. âProprietary product work will be done on WebLogic, and thereâll be a proprietary microservices platform.â WebLogic is the Java application server Oracle acquired when it bought BEA Systems in 2008./
https://dzone.com/articles/even-if-oracle-is-losing-interest-in-java-should-...
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-) nicolas -- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas -- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used. IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened. casimiro -- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions. == This email may be signed using PGP key *ID: 0x4134A417*
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it? I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press ======================================= If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT... Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java. Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else. IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small. Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java. Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol. People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there. The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps. Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to. IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development. So that's a start. Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement. We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement. After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen? Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen? Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen? Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen? The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities. How can we help make that happen? This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months. On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
Hello everyone, Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform. Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
We also need to concentrate on building our community. We build a better platform faster if we have more people. We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target. Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building. Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors. On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
Hi, Increasing the community is certainly important, and we welcome any action that anyone would want to undertake in this direction. However, talking about the future of Java does not fall in this category. Cheers, Doru
On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:44 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling."
We do need more ease of integration with other software. * 64 bit. * OS Process made easier. * FFI not requiring a PhD * Being able to use Pharo with normal text based tools (like mount an image like a filesystem). * Full integration with trendy tools. e.g. MongoTalk missing GridFS, sharding, HA. These things are moving forward. I am pissed that Julia got $600 000 and we are struggling due to cash issues. We do not miss brainpower. We miss being able to focus on progress because we can't fund it well enough. Phil On Nov 30, 2015 12:21 PM, "Tudor Girba" <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi,
Increasing the community is certainly important, and we welcome any
action that anyone would want to undertake in this direction.
However, talking about the future of Java does not fall in this category.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:44 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on
building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest
its money,
time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Presenting is storytelling."
We also miss a critical mass of warm bodies. Funing is very nice, don;t get me wrong. But in the absence of funding we need to be even more smart about gaining, and retaining enthusiast volunteers. On 30 November 2015 at 20:45, philippe.back@highoctane.be <philippe.back@gmail.com> wrote:
We do need more ease of integration with other software.
* 64 bit. * OS Process made easier. * FFI not requiring a PhD * Being able to use Pharo with normal text based tools (like mount an image like a filesystem). * Full integration with trendy tools. e.g. MongoTalk missing GridFS, sharding, HA.
These things are moving forward.
I am pissed that Julia got $600 000 and we are struggling due to cash issues.
We do not miss brainpower. We miss being able to focus on progress because we can't fund it well enough.
Phil
On Nov 30, 2015 12:21 PM, "Tudor Girba" <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi,
Increasing the community is certainly important, and we welcome any action that anyone would want to undertake in this direction.
However, talking about the future of Java does not fall in this category.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:44 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Presenting is storytelling."
We do need more ease of integration with other software.
I agree Normally we should have spur by next wednesday
* 64 bit
* OS Process made easier.
Mariano did you started to work on that?
* FFI not requiring a PhD
Yes.
* Being able to use Pharo with normal text based tools (like mount an image like a filesystem). * Full integration with trendy tools. e.g. MongoTalk missing GridFS, sharding, HA.
These things are moving forward.
I am pissed that Julia got $600 000 and we are struggling due to cash issues.
Well I do not know how to do that.
We do not miss brainpower. We miss being able to focus on progress because we can't fund it well enough.
Phil
On Nov 30, 2015 12:21 PM, "Tudor Girba" <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote:
Hi,
Increasing the community is certainly important, and we welcome any
action that anyone would want to undertake in this direction.
However, talking about the future of Java does not fall in this
category.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:44 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com
<mailto:euanmee@gmail.com>> wrote:
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com
<mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com <mailto:euanmee@gmail.com>> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com <mailto:casimiro.barreto@gmail.com>> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com>
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
-- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com>
"Presenting is storytelling."
Tudor, the email that you replied to, saying the discussion should be closed down, was specifically about the impacts on our community and how to leverage them. Welcoming is, as welcoming does. On 30 November 2015 at 11:20, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi,
Increasing the community is certainly important, and we welcome any action that anyone would want to undertake in this direction.
However, talking about the future of Java does not fall in this category.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:44 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Presenting is storytelling."
Hi, I think we are not talking about the same email. In any case, please name you thread appropriately. And, we should remember that acting is the only thing that will push us further. Cheers, Tudor
On Dec 1, 2015, at 12:18 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
Tudor, the email that you replied to, saying the discussion should be closed down, was specifically about the impacts on our community and how to leverage them.
Welcoming is, as welcoming does.
On 30 November 2015 at 11:20, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hi,
Increasing the community is certainly important, and we welcome any action that anyone would want to undertake in this direction.
However, talking about the future of Java does not fall in this category.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 30, 2015, at 4:44 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Presenting is storytelling."
-- www.tudorgirba.com "One cannot do more than one can do."
True help closing bug Build a great library Buidl a cool software Stef Le 30/11/15 04:44, EuanM a écrit :
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417 -- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
Hi Steph, As a newcomer, here is my experience with my first bug-fix: I wrote the fix in about 5 minutes. It then took several weeks to get the big-fix accepted because of issues with the repository and, separately, with bitrot in the list of maintainers. On 30 November 2015 at 16:52, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
True help closing bug Build a great library Buidl a cool software
Stef
Le 30/11/15 04:44, EuanM a écrit :
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
Question: how long to drop the slice into the inbox? On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:51 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Steph,
As a newcomer, here is my experience with my first bug-fix:
I wrote the fix in about 5 minutes.
It then took several weeks to get the big-fix accepted because of issues with the repository and, separately, with bitrot in the list of maintainers.
On 30 November 2015 at 16:52, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
True help closing bug Build a great library Buidl a cool software
Stef
Le 30/11/15 04:44, EuanM a écrit :
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and
future.
It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
We are quite fast in integrating the last weeks (even months). *Reviewed* fixes get integrated within hours, and I try to review as much as I can if others do not. To me this sounds like a fix to some other project on SmalltalkHub. T The thing here is that this is like gitHub: if a random Java project is abandoned, does Oracle step in and take over maintenance? Marcus
On 04 Dec 2015, at 09:49, phil@highoctane.be wrote:
Question: how long to drop the slice into the inbox?
On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:51 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com <mailto:euanmee@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Steph,
As a newcomer, here is my experience with my first bug-fix:
I wrote the fix in about 5 minutes.
It then took several weeks to get the big-fix accepted because of issues with the repository and, separately, with bitrot in the list of maintainers.
On 30 November 2015 at 16:52, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
True help closing bug Build a great library Buidl a cool software
Stef
Le 30/11/15 04:44, EuanM a écrit :
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com <mailto:euanmee@gmail.com>> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press <https://www.oracle.com/search/press>
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com <mailto:casimiro.barreto@gmail.com>> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com/>
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
There were two issues - one was lack of handover of packages in the Catalog. The other required a reboot of Smalltalkhub On 4 December 2015 at 09:54, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker@inria.fr> wrote:
We are quite fast in integrating the last weeks (even months).
*Reviewed* fixes get integrated within hours, and I try to review as much as I can if others do not.
To me this sounds like a fix to some other project on SmalltalkHub. T
The thing here is that this is like gitHub: if a random Java project is abandoned, does Oracle step in and take over maintenance?
Marcus
On 04 Dec 2015, at 09:49, phil@highoctane.be wrote:
Question: how long to drop the slice into the inbox?
On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:51 AM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Steph,
As a newcomer, here is my experience with my first bug-fix:
I wrote the fix in about 5 minutes.
It then took several weeks to get the big-fix accepted because of issues with the repository and, separately, with bitrot in the list of maintainers.
On 30 November 2015 at 16:52, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
True help closing bug Build a great library Buidl a cool software
Stef
Le 30/11/15 04:44, EuanM a écrit :
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
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"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 3:51 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Steph,
As a newcomer, here is my experience with my first bug-fix:
I wrote the fix in about 5 minutes.
What was the issue number? cheers -ben
It then took several weeks to get the big-fix accepted because of issues with the repository and, separately, with bitrot in the list of maintainers.
On 30 November 2015 at 16:52, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
True help closing bug Build a great library Buidl a cool software
Stef
Le 30/11/15 04:44, EuanM a écrit :
We also need to concentrate on building our community.
We build a better platform faster if we have more people.
We build a more valuable platform if we have a wider range of valuable use cases to target.
Unless and until we hit a critical mass of people joining our community, we *need* to spend some of our focus on community-building.
Part of great is being able to build things to sufficient completeness *and* keep them in working order over the long haul. This is easier with more contributors.
On 27 November 2015 at 21:27, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
Please stop this thread on this mailing list. We need to focus on building a great platform.
Cheers, Doru
On Nov 27, 2015, at 10:05 PM, EuanM <euanmee@gmail.com> wrote:
First of all - is this true? Where can we read about it?
I cannot find anything about this at https://www.oracle.com/search/press
=======================================
If Oracle did make this statement, then what people have said so far is true. BUT...
Java got about 40% of its initial momentum from IBM dumping VisualAge and putting all their resources into Java.
Oracle are targetting this move at IBM more than anyone else.
IBM will start to think about how to migrate from Java - as Oracle are telling them they will have to. (It's OUR bat and its OUR ball, and no-one else can play with it. Not even the Java Community). And IBM's coders do not pay for Java, Eclipse users do not pay for Java. I expect the licence-fee income for JREs is small.
Oracle are doing one of two things - announcing that Java is for sale to device providers - phones (Google is the obvious buyer) or the impending Internet of Things (which was what Java was designed for originally) or announcing that no-one making an internet of things offering should consider Java.
Yes, things live on and on in a kind of zombie state. So yes, things live on as long as their ecosystem does. And they gently wither and their ecosystem withers is a long slow drawn out spiral. Which is why we still have Cobol.
People and organisations tend to move from one technology to another in an incremental fashion. Swapping a little bit here, and a little bit there.
The new target platforms are ones which 1) look like they have longevity, and 2) have a migration pathway that provides incremental steps.
Offering a compelling advantage is good - but only if the steps 1) and 2) are catered to.
IBM VisualAge Smalltalk is still robust, commercially available software, and VisualStudio and Gemstone continue to represent Smalltalk out to the big world of corporate development.
So that's a start.
Say only 5% of the Java world moves away from Java each year, as a result of this announcement.
We *should* wish to take advantage of this announcement.
After all, think what difference having even 0.01% of the world's Java coders moving to Smalltalk would make. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to have thought-leaders like Kent Beck and Ward Cunningham back in the Smalltalk fold. How could we help that happen?
Think what it would be like to get back all the universities who moved from teaching OO concepts using Smalltalk into teaching them via Java. We now know almost all the ones using Smalltalk as a teaching language by name. Does anyone know even how many universities teach OO via Java? What would it be like if 5% of those universities moved to Smalltalk each year. How could we help that happen?
Next - do we have any big brained thinkers who can see specific ways we can improve interoperation between Java facilities and libraries and the Smalltalks? For the next 12 months, we should work on Java integration, rather than C++ integration. We should identify the three best things for us to do in this regard, and make them polished and compelling. Who is in a position to help that happen?
The final way we can take advantage help the maximum number of people find their way to us is to present a united community front to the outside world. In the same way I am both a European and a Scot, we need to be Smalltalkers *and*members of our individual Smalltalk-platform communities.
How can we help make that happen?
This is not a silver bullet. It's going to cause a long-term trend in events, not a sudden abrupt change. But it will have a real, if gradual effect. (assuming that
Equally, it is not something we should ignore. It is something we should make use of. We need to put effort into raising our profile over the next 6 months.
On 25 November 2015 at 19:51, Casimiro - GMAIL <casimiro.barreto@gmail.com> wrote:
Em 25-11-2015 17:21, Nicolas Anquetil escreveu:
On 25/11/2015 19:55, Jimmie Houchin wrote:
Much truth in what you say. However, what Oracle choose to invest its money, time, personnel resource into Java does affect its present and future. It has a great affect. But it isn't the whole story. Java has enough momentum in what already exists in the language and vm and what has been release under its license, for businesses to keep going for some time with only what currently exists.
Cobol is still alive (and well) after > 50 years. You can expect Java programmers to find jobs for many years yet to come :-)
nicolas
-- Nicolas Anquetil RMod team -- Inria Lille
1st: Java is extremely profitable. Each android phone, each android TV, each android embedded system pays copyrights to Oracle. 2nd: Much of current cloud infrastructure depends on java. 3rd: Java is already obsolete, like Frotran, Cobol, C, C++. It will continue to be used by same reasons these languages are used.
IMHO, discussing java is not profitable. Better to discuss things to be than talk about things that already happened.
casimiro
-- The information contained in this message is confidential and intended to the recipients specified in the headers. If you received this message by error, notify the sender immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copy or alteration of this message are strictly forbidden and subjected to civil and criminal sanctions.
==
This email may be signed using PGP key ID: 0x4134A417
-- www.tudorgirba.com
"Reasonable is what we are accustomed with."
participants (13)
-
Ben Coman -
Casimiro - GMAIL -
Dimitris Chloupis -
EuanM -
Jimmie Houchin -
Lorenzo Schiavina -
Marcus Denker -
Nicolas Anquetil -
phil＠highoctane.be -
philippe.back＠highoctane.be -
S Krish -
stepharo -
Tudor Girba