[Pharo-project] A challenge for all who cares
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a ³modern² G4 400 mhz PowerMac. That¹s is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb 117.192.108.122 178.64.152.244 190.18.66.65 190.193.183.54 190.216.29.120 190.99.158.210 201.212.74.182 201.252.254.21 64.151.43.167 76.110.216.6 76.15.23.5 76.68.49.175 86.42.80.90 88.161.169.54 92.225.135.195 93.38.215.238 This was the captured Ip, ranging from Atlanta, Paris,Milano, St Petersbourg, Hamburg, Sunchales, Buenos Aires . Off course some have halts as all is towards to alpha real soon now :=) In the process I fix some errors of the wiki, discover Cuis do not know how import Morph and must to do a mix between Juan code which is superior and old Squeak code just for compatibility. Lo lamento Juan por ensuciar el Cuis. So the challenge is: Taking http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/Cuis3.1r.4.zip as target we could build it from Spoon ? And add the best of Pharo, Squeak, whatever (external JavaScript) for having a killer system which document to self like Cuis3.1r.11.image running today on http://201.212.74.182:8086/ Siganme los buenos ! Edgar P.S Fell free to contact direct to edgardec2005@gmail.com Edgar
Sounds cool editing and executing Smalltalk code in a Wiki! :-) Have fun! Guido Stepken Am 20.02.2012 11:21 schrieb "Edgar J. De Cleene" <edgardec2005@gmail.com>:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
117.192.108.122 178.64.152.244 190.18.66.65 190.193.183.54 190.216.29.120 190.99.158.210 201.212.74.182 201.252.254.21 64.151.43.167 76.110.216.6 76.15.23.5 76.68.49.175 86.42.80.90 88.161.169.54 92.225.135.195 93.38.215.238
This was the captured Ip, ranging from Atlanta, Paris,Milano, St Petersbourg, Hamburg, Sunchales, Buenos Aires .
Off course some have halts as all is towards to alpha real soon now :=)
In the process I fix some errors of the wiki, discover Cuis do not know how import Morph and must to do a mix between Juan code which is superior and old Squeak code just for compatibility. Lo lamento Juan por ensuciar el Cuis.
So the challenge is:
Taking http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/Cuis3.1r.4.zip as target we could build it from Spoon ? And add the best of Pharo, Squeak, whatever (external JavaScript) for having a killer system which document to self like Cuis3.1r.11.image running today on http://201.212.74.182:8086/
Siganme los buenos !
Edgar
P.S Fell free to contact direct to edgardec2005@gmail.com
Edgar
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a "modern" G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
That's is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice. World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"????? This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!" Please, again: "Develop the development process!" Have fun, Guido Stepken
On 20 February 2012 20:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
If you would learn smalltalk, you would understand that there's no such tool. It could search, and even may found some, but still it impossible to find all. This is the main difference between late-bound dynamic language and static, compiled one. To deal with stupid errors like that, smalltalk uses tests with good code coverage. But that means that someone has to write them.
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Yes, we know. DRY. If there's no test, it won't magically appear even if you have right development process, unless someone will write it. Flaming on mailing list doesn't helps either way.
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 20 February 2012 19:59, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 20:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
If you would learn smalltalk, you would understand that there's no such tool. It could search, and even may found some, but still it impossible to find all. This is the main difference between late-bound dynamic language and static, compiled one.
To deal with stupid errors like that, smalltalk uses tests with good code coverage. But that means that someone has to write them.
Even 100% code coverage - and I mean per branch, not per method - is insufficient to prevent an MNU. Even if your code is perfect, someone can throw something random into your neat library, and hey presto! And we all know this, and choose the possibility of MNUs because dynamic typing meets our needs. frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Yes, we know. DRY. If there's no test, it won't magically appear even if you have right development process, unless someone will write it. Flaming on mailing list doesn't helps either way.
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader). Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language. frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
On 20 February 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
I wonder, what kind of language solves that problem better than smalltalk does? Apparently compilers can complain about using wrong type/name.. but they cannot complain about null pointer(s).. they usually crash & bail to OS :)
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 20 February 2012 20:24, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
I wonder, what kind of language solves that problem better than smalltalk does? Apparently compilers can complain about using wrong type/name.. but they cannot complain about null pointer(s).. they usually crash & bail to OS :)
The sad thing is that null pointer exceptions are perfectly avoidable in statically typed languages. Er, in decent ones at least! You have to actively work to use nulls in Haskell, for instance. If you have something that might or might not be there, you have an option type: Maybe in Haskell, or Option in Scala. It's just a wrapper that tells you "yes, I have a value, and this is it" or "no, I have no value". (I have a Smalltalk implementation up on http://www.squeaksource.com/Nutcracker/ in the Maybe package. You still have the problem in that you can always say Just value: nil, but it's handy for (a) saying "this is optional" and (b) chaining operations together such that a Nothing stops computation from proceeding.) frank
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 20 February 2012 22:07, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 20:24, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
I wonder, what kind of language solves that problem better than smalltalk does? Apparently compilers can complain about using wrong type/name.. but they cannot complain about null pointer(s).. they usually crash & bail to OS :)
The sad thing is that null pointer exceptions are perfectly avoidable in statically typed languages. Er, in decent ones at least! You have to actively work to use nulls in Haskell, for instance. If you have something that might or might not be there, you have an option type: Maybe in Haskell, or Option in Scala. It's just a wrapper that tells you "yes, I have a value, and this is it" or "no, I have no value".
Well yes, you add null to be one of the "expected" values, so you basically turn your input dataset S into (S+nil). but i was actually referring to them as unexpected value(s) which is much harder to deal with. But the problem is that for any input dataset for which your code works, there could be another dataset for which it doesn't, named unexpected input :) Because doing data validity checks at every possible entry point (method) of your application might not what you would like to do. DNU is about dealing with unexpected input, i.e. object receives a message which it cannot understand. So, the question is basically the same: how those languages deal with unexpected input?
(I have a Smalltalk implementation up on http://www.squeaksource.com/Nutcracker/ in the Maybe package. You still have the problem in that you can always say Just value: nil, but it's handy for (a) saying "this is optional" and (b) chaining operations together such that a Nothing stops computation from proceeding.)
frank
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Am 20.02.2012 21:24, schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 20 February 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar<frank.shearar@gmail.com> wrote:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"????? This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
I wonder, what kind of language solves that problem better than smalltalk does? Apparently compilers can complain about using wrong type/name.. but they cannot complain about null pointer(s).. they usually crash& bail to OS :)
Its string>>base64Decoded error ... missing or removed library/class? No, this must not happen! -> Never ever! -> Develop the development process! Have fun, Guido Stepken
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
Le 20 février 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> a écrit :
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;) Nicolas
frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
Am 20.02.2012 um 21:30 schrieb Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com>:
Le 20 février 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar <frank.shearar@gmail.com> a écrit :
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Very well put :) Probably the context got corrupted somehow. So whom to blame then? It could be select _is_ broken. ha ha, made my day, thanks, Norbert
Nicolas
frank
This is no personal quality problem, this is a methodical problem. In the whole Pharo team. "Wrong development process!"
Please, again: "Develop the development process!"
Have fun, Guido Stepken
Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
Le 20 février 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar<frank.shearar@gmail.com> a écrit :
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"????? This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
There *is* a possibility to check, if there is some sender sending something, that a receiver cannot understand. NONSENSE! Do it, develop the development process, insure quality in the code!!! Have fun! Guido Stepken
A true don quixote of modern times fighting the endless mills of the halting problem again you made my day :D On 2012-02-20, at 23:01, Guido Stepken wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
Le 20 février 2012 21:18, Frank Shearar<frank.shearar@gmail.com> a écrit :
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"????? This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
There *is* a possibility to check, if there is some sender sending something, that a receiver cannot understand.
NONSENSE!
Do it, develop the development process, insure quality in the code!!!
Have fun!
Guido Stepken
Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
Nicolas, i *know*, there must be a solution! Cannot be, that i klick into a menu and *directly* run into error messages. Think! Develop the development process! Don't argue! tnx, Guido Stepken
Guido what are you on? arghh soooo annoying Think! Don't argue! You're annoying! On 21 Feb 2012, at 12:06 AM, Guido Stepken wrote: Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
Nicolas, i *know*, there must be a solution! Cannot be, that i klick into a menu and *directly* run into error messages. Think! Develop the development process! Don't argue! tnx, Guido Stepken
Le 20 février 2012 23:06, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> a écrit :
Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
Nicolas, i *know*, there must be a solution! Cannot be, that i klick into a menu and *directly* run into error messages.
Think!
Develop the development process! Don't argue!
tnx, Guido Stepken
Guido, you take a bug in a hacked Cuis image to demonstrate that Pharo development process is wrong... So how could I possibly argue if you don't use logic. That's a pity, because for once we had something pretty close to a true bug report... but the bug doesn't even show in a Cuis image, I just took my not so precious time to check. That doesn't matter because I have no doubt that you are not interested at all in bug reporting/fixing. When I unwind your long stack of message sends, I see the same good political slogan, develop the development process. Well very nice, you found yourself initiated with higher level functions, but beware, in Haskell like in Guido, there is no way to detect an infinite recursion, even if we seriously suspect one. Nicolas
Nicolas, i *only* complain *systematic* bugs, that *can* be avoided! See the difference to *occationally occurring* bugs!!!! tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
On 20 February 2012 23:55, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 20 février 2012 23:06, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> a écrit :
Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
Nicolas, i *know*, there must be a solution! Cannot be, that i klick into a menu and *directly* run into error messages.
Think!
Develop the development process! Don't argue!
tnx, Guido Stepken
Guido, you take a bug in a hacked Cuis image to demonstrate that Pharo development process is wrong... So how could I possibly argue if you don't use logic.
Because it is much easier to keep saying "you're wrong/you doing it wrong" than do anything towards fixing it by yourself.
That's a pity, because for once we had something pretty close to a true bug report... but the bug doesn't even show in a Cuis image, I just took my not so precious time to check.
That doesn't matter because I have no doubt that you are not interested at all in bug reporting/fixing. When I unwind your long stack of message sends, I see the same good political slogan, develop the development process. Well very nice, you found yourself initiated with higher level functions, but beware, in Haskell like in Guido, there is no way to detect an infinite recursion, even if we seriously suspect one.
Can't wait till Guido will start learning quantum mechanics. I can hear his "you doing it wrong" echoing from future :)
Nicolas
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
I predicted it! http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock... You want me as experienced software architect and project manager predict more about Pharo's future (or doom), or are you willing to listen and learn? You will debug Pharo/Squeak until your 90 years old, because you (the Pharo team) is not able to address bugs systematically. This is fact! Look e.g. at LUAJit. Stable, used by estimated 10 mio users of WORLD OF WARCRAFT, Wikipedia, portable, rockstable. Pharo???? Unstable, nobody uses it, academic brainfuck. And Dr. Geo will soon be implemented in JavaScript, i think, the better solution, other apps will disappear soon, like CMSBOX, ... doom! My prediction, if you don't develop the development process any further!!! tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken Am 21.02.2012 01:10 schrieb "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua@gmail.com>:
On 20 February 2012 23:55, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 20 février 2012 23:06, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> a écrit :
Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
Nicolas, i *know*, there must be a solution! Cannot be, that i klick into a menu and *directly* run into error messages.
Think!
Develop the development process! Don't argue!
tnx, Guido Stepken
Guido, you take a bug in a hacked Cuis image to demonstrate that Pharo development process is wrong... So how could I possibly argue if you don't use logic.
Because it is much easier to keep saying "you're wrong/you doing it wrong" than do anything towards fixing it by yourself.
That's a pity, because for once we had something pretty close to a true bug report... but the bug doesn't even show in a Cuis image, I just took my not so precious time to check.
That doesn't matter because I have no doubt that you are not interested at all in bug reporting/fixing. When I unwind your long stack of message sends, I see the same good political slogan, develop the development process. Well very nice, you found yourself initiated with higher level functions, but beware, in Haskell like in Guido, there is no way to detect an infinite recursion, even if we seriously suspect one.
Can't wait till Guido will start learning quantum mechanics. I can hear his "you doing it wrong" echoing from future :)
Nicolas
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 21 February 2012 02:40, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
I predicted it!
Predicted what? That you will repeat same things which you said half year ago? Again, Guido, why you think you are the only one who knows about issues on which you constantly pointing out? I knew about this stuff long ago (in 2007), when i first met squeak. Pharo didn't even existed at that time. Now you think that all bad things are magically disappear/get fixed once magnificient Guido will point on them? I don't want to disappoint you, but some things on the landscape tend to change slower than you expect.
http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...
You want me as experienced software architect and project manager predict more about Pharo's future (or doom), or are you willing to listen and learn?
You will debug Pharo/Squeak until your 90 years old, because you (the Pharo team) is not able to address bugs systematically. This is fact!
Look e.g. at LUAJit. Stable, used by estimated 10 mio users of WORLD OF WARCRAFT, Wikipedia, portable, rockstable.
Pharo???? Unstable, nobody uses it, academic brainfuck. And Dr. Geo will soon be implemented in JavaScript, i think, the better solution, other apps will disappear soon, like CMSBOX, ... doom!
My prediction, if you don't develop the development process any further!!!
tnx 4 understanding,
Guido Stepken
Am 21.02.2012 01:10 schrieb "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua@gmail.com>:
On 20 February 2012 23:55, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
Le 20 février 2012 23:06, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> a écrit :
Am 20.02.2012 21:30, schrieb Nicolas Cellier:
What, what, the right development process wouldn't solve such a trivial problem ? Guido, try to inspect yourself with all your introspection tools and development process know how, because I have the feeling that despite the many answers you got, you still face a message not understood problem ;)
Nicolas
Nicolas, i *know*, there must be a solution! Cannot be, that i klick into a menu and *directly* run into error messages.
Think!
Develop the development process! Don't argue!
tnx, Guido Stepken
Guido, you take a bug in a hacked Cuis image to demonstrate that Pharo development process is wrong... So how could I possibly argue if you don't use logic.
Because it is much easier to keep saying "you're wrong/you doing it wrong" than do anything towards fixing it by yourself.
That's a pity, because for once we had something pretty close to a true bug report... but the bug doesn't even show in a Cuis image, I just took my not so precious time to check.
That doesn't matter because I have no doubt that you are not interested at all in bug reporting/fixing. When I unwind your long stack of message sends, I see the same good political slogan, develop the development process. Well very nice, you found yourself initiated with higher level functions, but beware, in Haskell like in Guido, there is no way to detect an infinite recursion, even if we seriously suspect one.
Can't wait till Guido will start learning quantum mechanics. I can hear his "you doing it wrong" echoing from future :)
Nicolas
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
The 22.02.2012 00:05 schrieb "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua <siguctua@gmail.com>@<siguctua@gmail.com> gmail.com <siguctua@gmail.com>>:
On 21 February 2012 02:40, Guido Stepken <gstepken<gstepken@googlemail.com>
@ <gstepken@googlemail.com>googlemail.com <gstepken@googlemail.com>> wrote:
I predicted it!
Predicted what?
Your right, i was reporting facts, some people denied or couldn't understand my input.
That you will repeat same things which you said half year ago?
I gave some input, that absolutely did not fit into the secret plans of the Pharo initiators, going business (shareholders) with Pharo (Ducasse, Denker, Wysseier, Lienhard et. al) That perfectly fits to their behaviour.
Again, Guido, why you think you are the only one who knows about issues on which you constantly pointing out?
No. So if everybody *knows*, why some people are calling me a Troll???
I knew about this stuff long ago (in 2007), when i first met squeak. Pharo didn't even existed at that time. Now you think that all bad things are magically disappear/get fixed once magnificient Guido will point on them?
I am a process wizard, i am *very* interested in seeing Pharo becoming a *very successfull* product! :-) Have fun! Guido Stepken
Am 20.02.2012 21:18, schrieb Frank Shearar:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"????? This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
Thank you, indirectly admitting, that there must be such a tool. ;-) Think! Have fun, Guido Stepken
On 20 February 2012 22:58, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 21:18, schrieb Frank Shearar:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> Â wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> Â appearance -> Â set desktop color -> Â Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
Thank you, indirectly admitting, that there must be such a tool. ;-)
yes, it called human brain.
Think!
Have fun, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Am 20.02.2012 23:01, schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 20 February 2012 22:58, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 21:18, schrieb Frank Shearar:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> appearance -> set desktop color -> Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"????? This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
Thank you, indirectly admitting, that there must be such a tool. ;-)
yes, it called human brain.
Don't argue. Think about, there *must* be a possibility to avoid such errors! Develop the development process! tnx, Guido Stepken
On 20 February 2012 21:58, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 21:18, schrieb Frank Shearar:
On 20 February 2012 19:41, Guido Stepken<gstepken@googlemail.com> Â wrote:
Am 20.02.2012 10:22, schrieb Edgar J. De Cleene:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced image of 2 mb
Looks nice.
World menu -> Â appearance -> Â set desktop color -> Â Error
What i - never ever - understand is, why - when Smalltalk is a reflective language and there are so mighty tools - like Moose - out there, able to search the whole codebase for possible occurrences of "message not understood"?????
This is just a trivial application of the solution to the Halting Problem (left as an exercise for the reader).
Or: if you want to avoid MNU, don't use a dynamically typed language.
Thank you, indirectly admitting, that there must be such a tool. ;-)
Think!
Sure. Given a decent statically typed language you can completely avoid the null problem, at least if you leave out input, which is what Igor's hinting at in his reply to me. And as soon as you allow arbitrary input, you're hosed. That is, you run smack into the entscheidungsproblem. So, no, I was quite explicitly saying that there is provably no such tool. If you're finding a bug, then _report it_. Ideally, _produce a replicable series of steps to expose the bug_. You can program, so _write a test for it_. frank
Am 20.02.2012 23:21 schrieb "Frank Shearar" <frank.shearar@gmail.com>:
Thank you, indirectly admitting, that there must be such a tool. ;-)
Think!
Sure. Given a decent statically typed language you can completely avoid the null problem, at least if you leave out input, which is what Igor's hinting at in his reply to me.
And as soon as you allow arbitrary input, you're hosed. That is, you run smack into the entscheidungsproblem.
Any Entscheidungsproblem *is* a permutation problem, of course! Again, ensure quality! I don't want no more errors! Especially when i simply click menus, and also when a image is simply stripped and obviously a package missing! Don't argue, develop the development process!!! Again! Don't type in nothing, that *is* not tested. If you remove code, write a tool, that ensures, that it can be removed without running into troubles!!! Tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
Am 20.02.2012 11:21 schrieb "Edgar J. De Cleene" <edgardec2005@gmail.com>:
Yesterday in a response to Craig I said have a Cuis with a wiki on top
and this .image is 5 mb and run on a âmodernâ G4 400 mhz PowerMac.
Thatâs is a beauty and the power of Cuis, thanks Juan for your reduced
image of 2 mb
117.192.108.122 178.64.152.244 190.18.66.65 190.193.183.54 190.216.29.120 190.99.158.210 201.212.74.182 201.252.254.21 64.151.43.167 76.110.216.6 76.15.23.5 76.68.49.175 86.42.80.90 88.161.169.54 92.225.135.195 93.38.215.238
This was the captured Ip, ranging from Atlanta, Paris,Milano, St
Petersbourg, Hamburg, Sunchales, Buenos Aires .
Off course some have halts as all is towards to alpha real soon now :=)
In the process I fix some errors of the wiki, discover Cuis do not know
how import Morph and must to do a mix between Juan code which is superior and old Squeak code just for compatibility.
Lo lamento Juan por ensuciar el Cuis.
So the challenge is:
Taking http://ftp.squeak.org/various_images/SqueakLight/Cuis3.1r.4.zip as target we could build it from Spoon ? And add the best of Pharo, Squeak, whatever (external JavaScript) for having a killer system which document to self like Cuis3.1r.11.image running today on http://201.212.74.182:8086/
For the inperienced: Could you please explain, howto activate the wiki on Port 8086 and explain, what it maybe useful for? tnx in advance, Guido Stepken
On 2/20/12 10:58 PM, "Guido Stepken" <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
For the inperienced: Could you please explain, howto activate the wiki on Port 8086 and explain, what it maybe useful for?
tnx in advance, Guido Stepken
We have a group in http://ar.groups.yahoo.com/group/squeakRos/ which pretend to be a virtual Bar and Café where nobody rules and all could talk about all. We exchange war tales, recipes, complain about bad government, etc. And off course talk about Squeak , Pharo, etc. I have a modest LAN with assorted old and new computers , which use for all kind of experiments. So the entry gate is www.squeakros.org, witch redirects to here. If in www.squeakros.org you do not see the yellow and blue counter (which is a old LedMorph rendered to page) means no computer here is on. All is experimental .... The links in green should work (mostly) The :8086 port connect you with a Cuis3.1r.11.image This image runs a fake swiki where I put all related to Cuis and HVNaughtieWiki. As you know, the original swiki is Squeak 3.7 and I do not know of any more modern. So I decide make a HV2 enhanced version of it, download the real http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak files and make objects of any .html The downloaded was 103 Mb. The first .obj was 24 Mb. And now is 13 Mb. In the :8085 you could see the fake Squeak swiki which I synchronize not to often, The .image which runs is modified Squeak 4.3 So for what I use the wiki ? For lousy in house Spanish documentation about things I made. For learn how to made the swiki. For learn how the almost same code runs in Squeak, Pharo, Cuis and derivates of each For learn how the .obj could be exchanged between all I hope this explain all and you was welcomed in SqueakRos. Also I could send a user / password and you could make your own lousy docs. Cheers Edgar
participants (8)
-
Camillo Bruni -
Carlo -
Edgar J. De Cleene -
Frank Shearar -
Guido Stepken -
Igor Stasenko -
Nicolas Cellier -
Norbert Hartl