[Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
Hi guys I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to write cool code but just get in my way: "this variable is not used.... you did not store into it.... Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else? Stef
i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked up by a lint rule. the "your using this variable and you haven't yet assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?) had a nice permanent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked) then I would get rid the former in preference of such a framework that can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept methods. could then be package / context aware etc. Mike On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to write cool code but just get in my way: Â Â Â Â "this variable is not used.... Â Â Â Â you did not store into it....
Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else?
Stef
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Stef, Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid." Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Michael Roberts Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:21 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked up by a lint rule. the "your using this variable and you haven't yet assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?) had a nice permanent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked) then I would get rid the former in preference of such a framework that can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept methods. could then be package / context aware etc. Mike On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to write cool code but just get in my way: Â Â Â Â "this variable is not used.... Â Â Â Â you did not store into it....
Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else?
Stef
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+1 On 2009-09-11 18:32:18 -0300, "Schwab,Wilhelm K" <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> said:
Stef,
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are to o much. Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, wi th reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it fro m the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted befor e I do something stupid."
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bou nces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Michael Roberts Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:21 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked up by a lint rule. the "your using this variable and you haven't yet assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?) had a nice perma nent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked) then I would get rid t he former in preference of such a framework that can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept methods. could then be package / context aware etc.
Mike
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria .fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help
to write cool code but just get in my way: Â Â Â Â "this variable is not used.... Â Â Â Â you did not store into it....
Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else?
Stef
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is it possible to show with flag "Do not hastiate anymore?" and save state in current instance of editor (or some)? On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 01:32, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:
Stef,
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) Â A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Â Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Michael Roberts Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:21 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked up by a lint rule. Â the "your using this variable and you haven't yet assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?) had a nice permanent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked) then I would get rid the former in preference of such a framework that can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept methods. could then be package / context aware etc.
Mike
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to write cool code but just get in my way: Â Â Â Â "this variable is not used.... Â Â Â Â you did not store into it....
Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else?
Stef
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The answer to "is it possible to..." is almost always yes. I think it would be easier to suppress the popups add some type of analyzer/mentor pane, but I'm no expert on how the browsers work. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Andrey Larionov Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:54 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup is it possible to show with flag "Do not hastiate anymore?" and save state in current instance of editor (or some)? On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 01:32, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> wrote:
Stef,
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) Â A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Â Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Michael Roberts Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 4:21 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked up by a lint rule. Â the "your using this variable and you haven't yet assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?) had a nice permanent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked) then I would get rid the former in preference of such a framework that can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept methods. could then be package / context aware etc.
Mike
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to write cool code but just get in my way: Â Â Â Â "this variable is not used.... Â Â Â Â you did not store into it....
Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else?
Stef
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On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:32 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."
same here! At least we have a common vision and we can go slowly there.
2009/9/12 Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:32 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) Â A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Â Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."
same here! At least we have a common vision and we can go slowly there.
I having the same vision. Browser should not prevent you from accepting the badly crafted code. It should allow it unless there is syntax errors. All warnings, like unused temps, use of unassigned temps etc, should pop-up in a list pane below the code pane, so user could see it and react, or just ignore and go & do something else. Btw, this pane could be reused for more deeper/complex code analyzing tools, like lint etc.
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-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
yeap good idea. A kind of log console. Stef
Stef,
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."
same here! At least we have a common vision and we can go slowly there.
I having the same vision. Browser should not prevent you from accepting the badly crafted code. It should allow it unless there is syntax errors. All warnings, like unused temps, use of unassigned temps etc, should pop-up in a list pane below the code pane, so user could see it and react, or just ignore and go & do something else. Btw, this pane could be reused for more deeper/complex code analyzing tools, like lint etc.
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-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
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Stef, ... And selecting an item from that log highlights the offending code. The context menu for the log includes help on the violated rule. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 2:38 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup yeap good idea. A kind of log console. Stef
Stef,
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."
same here! At least we have a common vision and we can go slowly there.
I having the same vision. Browser should not prevent you from accepting the badly crafted code. It should allow it unless there is syntax errors. All warnings, like unused temps, use of unassigned temps etc, should pop-up in a list pane below the code pane, so user could see it and react, or just ignore and go & do something else. Btw, this pane could be reused for more deeper/complex code analyzing tools, like lint etc.
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-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
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Em 11/09/2009 18:32, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab@anest.ufl.edu> escreveu:
Yes, the popups should go away - far away :) A code mentor pane with lint rule violations would be greatly appreciated, but the modal messages are too much. Sometimes I want to save code that I know will generate errors, with reasons ranging from "I'll let it blow up and choose to implement it from the debugger" to "don't want to lose this, so let's get it accepted before I do something stupid."
I think Bill here has an interesting point: there are lots of references on Smalltalk programming that advocate this kind of development. So it makes sense we could have some 'selection' mechanism on how Pharo should behave pertaining the the way this info is shown during the develpment session.
Yes this is what I think. The interface of SmallLint should really be improved. Stef On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:21 PM, Michael Roberts wrote:
i would be quite happy if the "this variable is not used" was picked up by a lint rule. the "your using this variable and you haven't yet assigned a value" is sometimes nice. however, if lint/slint/slime (?) had a nice permanent UI mechanism in the browser (i haven't checked) then I would get rid the former in preference of such a framework that can point out all sorts of useful things with the code when you accept methods. could then be package / context aware etc.
Mike
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to write cool code but just get in my way: "this variable is not used.... you did not store into it....
Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else?
Stef
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I agree 100%. less is more sometimes. Il giorno Sep 11, 2009, alle ore 7:12 PM, Stéphane Ducasse ha scritto:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to write cool code but just get in my way: "this variable is not used.... you did not store into it....
Could we agree that we are adults? and this is more a pain than anything else?
Stef
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well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback. But yes your idea is cool. Stef On Sep 12, 2009, at 4:49 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
Hi guys
I would like what you think of these wonderful popups that try to help to
Just do what Eclipse does. Highlight it as a problem and offer a quick fix (Ctrl + 1).
Cheers Philippe
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Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.
The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.
But yes your idea is cool.
You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it. Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way. Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--' and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows. Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them. And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI. Cheers Philippe
I agree. :) I would love to have that. this is why we should really have a system to experiment these ideas. Stef On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.
The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.
But yes your idea is cool.
You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it.
Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way.
Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--' and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows.
Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them.
And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI.
Cheers Philippe
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Stef, I'm all for trying things like this, but have my reservation about replacing a good text editor; adding alternatives is fine, of course. Are you going to be in Orlando for OOPSLA? I do not have funding to register, but live close enough that it would be a shame not to meet up on a free evening for you. Not only would I enjoy meeting you and others, but I would like to give you a brief tour of Dolphin's IDE (such as its definition/code/comment panes) and a few goodies that I have found helpful. There are some simple changes we could make that would greatly enhance the usability of the browsers and other tools. Events or announcements added to the tools would enable extensions like those that can be very effective in the Dolphin IDE. I would welcome an opportunity to demonstrate some simple changes that would help us. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 12:03 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup I agree. :) I would love to have that. this is why we should really have a system to experiment these ideas. Stef On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.
The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.
But yes your idea is cool.
You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it.
Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way.
Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--' and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows.
Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them.
And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI.
Cheers Philippe
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On Sep 12, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
I'm all for trying things like this, but have my reservation about replacing a good text editor; adding alternatives is fine, of course.
paragraphEditor is not inline with what we coudl expect from a paragraphEditor nowadays. Now building one is far from easy.
Are you going to be in Orlando for OOPSLA?
No
I do not have funding to register, but live close enough that it would be a shame not to meet up on a free evening for you. Not only would I enjoy meeting you and others, but I would like to give you a brief tour of Dolphin's IDE (such as its definition/code/comment panes) and a few goodies that I have found helpful. There are some simple changes we could make that would greatly enhance the usability of the browsers and other tools. Events or announcements added to the tools would enable extensions like those that can be very effective in the Dolphin IDE. I would welcome an opportunity to demonstrate some simple changes that would help us.
what you could do is a video :) Stef
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 12:03 PM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
I agree. :) I would love to have that. this is why we should really have a system to experiment these ideas.
Stef
On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.
The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.
But yes your idea is cool.
You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it.
Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way.
Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '-- all--' and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows.
Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them.
And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI.
Cheers Philippe
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In past ESUG media (presentation slides) i saw and briliant example of enchancing Shout (or paragraph editor) with interactive icons. Is this work incomplete or it can be observed? In presentation it was named OBEnchancments, but i didnt saw any of this features in Squeak or Pharo. On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 21:02, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
I agree. :) I would love to have that. this is why we should really have a system to experiment these ideas.
Stef
On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.
The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.
But yes your idea is cool.
You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it.
Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way.
Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--' and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows.
Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them.
And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI.
Cheers Philippe
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In past ESUG media (presentation slides) i saw and briliant example of enchancing Shout (or paragraph editor) with interactive icons. Is this work incomplete or it can be observed? In presentation it was named OBEnchancments, but i didnt saw any of this features in Squeak or Pharo.
I do not know. Now what you have with OB (since lukas push the idea there), is that you can use the icons to navigate the class hierarchy and laucnh tests and others.
I mean this presentation http://vst.ensm-douai.fr/ESUG2009Media/uploads/1/obEnhancements.ppt On slide Dynamic Navigation there are icons for nvagating across the code. On Sat, Sep 12, 2009 at 23:06, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
In past ESUG media (presentation slides) i saw and briliant example of enchancing Shout (or paragraph editor) with interactive icons. Is this work incomplete or it can be observed? Â In presentation it was named OBEnchancments, but i didnt saw any of this features in Squeak or Pharo.
I do not know. Now what you have with OB (since lukas push the idea there), is that you can use the icons to navigate the class hierarchy and laucnh tests and others.
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Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
I agree. :) I would love to have that. this is why we should really have a system to experiment these ideas.
The Glamour framework looks useful for browser experimentation. I would really like a modern version of the Whisker browser Doug Way created.
On Sep 12, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Philippe Marschall wrote:
Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.
The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.
But yes your idea is cool.
You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it.
Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way.
Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--' and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows.
Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them.
And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI.
Cheers Philippe
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Philippe, I am not an eclipse user, so I could be missing something, just as I think people who have not worked with Dolphin's IDE cannot fully appreciate its robustness. However, I find it hard to believe the scrollbars and time-tested methods of text editing can be rendered obsolete with a few keyboard shortcuts. You would no doubt find some of my methods too long; I respond that the alternative has too many entry points. The extra entry points are all the more offensive to me without Dolphin's ability to apply multile categories to methods - again, something one has to experience to fully appreciate. The idea of non-modally flagging offending code is well taken, but I find two flaws: (1) the highlighting itself could easily "get in my way" by adding visual clutter; (2) you seem to assume there is at most one rule violation. You say that adding panes will not fix things, but it seems that a pane showing the broken rules is exactly what is needed. An alternative might be a drop-down of broken rules, whith the selection (defaulting to nothing) highlighting the code breaking that rule. I agree that the current browser's panes are not optimally sized. However, I doubt that there is a univeral preference that will satisfy all users. Further, I have never like "system browsers" in Smalltalk systems; a filtered class hierarchy browser is vastly superior IMHO. Again going back to Dolphin, it's use of tabs for the various browser panes is subtly but vastly superior to Squeak and Pharo's use of buttons to change the pane contents. The difference is that multiple views on a selection (class, class+method, class+method+instance variable, etc.) can be "open" at the same time. It becomes much easy to use one browser to edit a method, go to the class definition to view/copy variable names, go back to the code to keep typing, and not have to accept the method along the way. Any promise to provide summaries or alternate representation of code always makes me nervous; it is fine as an option, but not as a replacement for text editing. I format my code in particular ways, including (especially!!!) comments, and that formatting is analogous to phrasing in music. In porting a lot of my Dolphin code in recent months, I have been reminded of how important my month-year tagged comments can be - they helped me find three long-standing bugs in just the past week. For two of those bugs, the seeds of the solution were suggested by the comments themselves. I like my code and my scrollbars. Version history can provide some of the same assistance, but it gets clobbered by compressing changes and requires one to compare the versions and/or read through a machine's efforts to present the differences. The comments I leave for myself are designed to be useful to me in the future, and have stood the test of time. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Philippe Marschall Sent: Saturday, September 12, 2009 11:16 AM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
well for this we will have to rewrite paragraphEditor :) So in making pharo moves forward we will have to accept losing some feedback.
The feedback is still there. The piece of code is still marked as a problem. It just doesn't get in your way.
But yes your idea is cool.
You'll have to do more than that. I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it. Example, why is the browser the size it currently is? Because that was more or less full screen in the 80ies. Consequence you'll always have to resize and scroll when you open a browser because the category and class panes are too small. I see how this was cool, exciting and new in the 80ies but today it gets in my way. Example, I want to go to a method in a class. Either I click '--all--' and scroll, scroll, look, scroll, scroll back or I click through the protocols until I found on it. When I'm in Eclipse and want to open a variable or method declaration I hit Ctrl + O, Eclipse shows me a short outline of the class. Like in Firefox Awesome Bar it filters the list as I type part of the name. Once I select something it closes and goes there. Zero mouse activity. Zero additional window. When I'm in a method and want to go to a method invoked there either I Ctrl + click it or I hit F3. When I want to see the hierarchy of a class or the inheritance of a method I just do Ctrl + T and an inline window opens. It closes when I select something or hit Esc. Pharo stacks so many windows on top of each other that you're never going to find your way back. So at the end of the day you just close dozens of windows. Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever. If he decides to delete Migros, we do it without asking. The previous version of the product did but users just developed a reflex to click popups away without even reading them. And don't get me started on breakpoints. Or blocking the UI. Cheers Philippe _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Since you ask, LOTS of experience with very similar claims that turned out to be bogus. You did ask. Now would you like to debate the points I rasised? -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Philippe Marschall Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 3:49 AM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Philippe,
I am not an eclipse user
So why are you responding then? What I describe works very well in practice. You haven't used it but bring theoretical points why it can't work. Cheers Philippe _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Since you ask, LOTS of experience with very similar claims that turned out to be bogus. You did ask. Now would you like to debate the points I rasised?
What's there to discuss when my argument is "it works in practice" and your argument is "I have never tried it but here's why it doesn't work" (which basically boils down to it's not Dolphin)? Cheers Philippe
Guys you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :) Stef
Stef, One comment: they are more than boring, they are **annoying** :) Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:42 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup Guys you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :) Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
I think there are two pop ups that should stay because they help TDD:1) When the variable is not defined and you want to define it as instance variable (it is very common to do that) 2) When the class does not exists and you want to create it from there. The other (message not exist, etc) should not be there. BTW, I did that on the TDDFacilities package. It is on SqueakSource: MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/TDDFacilities' user: '' password: '' Bye, Hernan. On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse < stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> wrote:
Guys
you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :)
Stef
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On Sep 14, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Hernan Wilkinson wrote:
I think there are two pop ups that should stay because they help TDD: 1) When the variable is not defined and you want to define it as instance variable (it is very common to do that) 2) When the class does not exists and you want to create it from there.
yes!
The other (message not exist, etc) should not be there. BTW, I did that on the TDDFacilities package. It is on SqueakSource:
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/TDDFacilities' user: '' password: ''
cool I will have a look. Stef
Bye, Hernan.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote: Guys
you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :)
Stef
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Hernan, Stef I still would perfer to just ses the syntax error; perhaps it is just pop-up burnout, but I find them annoying, but not so much so that I would object if Stef wants to integrate this as-is. I vaugely recall that the changes include removing notifieres, which really steps on my toes. As is always my position on such things, I do not care if *you* skip them, but I do not want them removed from my image. Taking some small action to enable them is fine, but I ask the benevolent dictators to not allow them to be removed. Bill ________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Hernan Wilkinson Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 6:35 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup I think there are two pop ups that should stay because they help TDD: 1) When the variable is not defined and you want to define it as instance variable (it is very common to do that) 2) When the class does not exists and you want to create it from there. The other (message not exist, etc) should not be there. BTW, I did that on the TDDFacilities package. It is on SqueakSource: MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/TDDFacilities' user: '' password: '' Bye, Hernan. On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr<mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: Guys you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :) Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
bill for now I will cherrypick the removal of the two boring one. for the rest we will see. Stef On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Hernan, Stef
I still would perfer to just ses the syntax error; perhaps it is just pop-up burnout, but I find them annoying, but not so much so that I would object if Stef wants to integrate this as-is.
I vaugely recall that the changes include removing notifieres, which really steps on my toes. As is always my position on such things, I do not care if *you* skip them, but I do not want them removed from my image. Taking some small action to enable them is fine, but I ask the benevolent dictators to not allow them to be removed.
Bill
From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Hernan Wilkinson Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 6:35 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
I think there are two pop ups that should stay because they help TDD: 1) When the variable is not defined and you want to define it as instance variable (it is very common to do that) 2) When the class does not exists and you want to create it from there.
The other (message not exist, etc) should not be there. BTW, I did that on the TDDFacilities package. It is on SqueakSource:
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/TDDFacilities' user: '' password: ''
Bye, Hernan.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote: Guys
you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :)
Stef
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Stef, Sounds great - thanks! Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:30 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup bill for now I will cherrypick the removal of the two boring one. for the rest we will see. Stef On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Hernan, Stef
I still would perfer to just ses the syntax error; perhaps it is just pop-up burnout, but I find them annoying, but not so much so that I would object if Stef wants to integrate this as-is.
I vaugely recall that the changes include removing notifieres, which really steps on my toes. As is always my position on such things, I do not care if *you* skip them, but I do not want them removed from my image. Taking some small action to enable them is fine, but I ask the benevolent dictators to not allow them to be removed.
Bill
From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Hernan Wilkinson Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 6:35 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
I think there are two pop ups that should stay because they help TDD: 1) When the variable is not defined and you want to define it as instance variable (it is very common to do that) 2) When the class does not exists and you want to create it from there.
The other (message not exist, etc) should not be there. BTW, I did that on the TDDFacilities package. It is on SqueakSource:
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/TDDFacilities' user: '' password: ''
Bye, Hernan.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote: Guys
you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :)
Stef
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hi guys http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1224 Now there is the possibility to not be warned for | a | a + 1 When you compile and also removing unused variable Parser doNotWarnUser Parser WarnUser compiler-sd.117 in the inbox I would prefer that somebody have a look before I push that in the stream Stef On Sep 14, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Stef,
Sounds great - thanks!
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 9:30 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
bill for now I will cherrypick the removal of the two boring one. for the rest we will see.
Stef
On Sep 14, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Hernan, Stef
I still would perfer to just ses the syntax error; perhaps it is just pop-up burnout, but I find them annoying, but not so much so that I would object if Stef wants to integrate this as-is.
I vaugely recall that the changes include removing notifieres, which really steps on my toes. As is always my position on such things, I do not care if *you* skip them, but I do not want them removed from my image. Taking some small action to enable them is fine, but I ask the benevolent dictators to not allow them to be removed.
Bill
From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr ] On Behalf Of Hernan Wilkinson Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 6:35 AM To: Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup
I think there are two pop ups that should stay because they help TDD: 1) When the variable is not defined and you want to define it as instance variable (it is very common to do that) 2) When the class does not exists and you want to create it from there.
The other (message not exist, etc) should not be there. BTW, I did that on the TDDFacilities package. It is on SqueakSource:
MCHttpRepository location: 'http://www.squeaksource.com/TDDFacilities' user: '' password: ''
Bye, Hernan.
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr
wrote: Guys
you may not have noticed it but I would love to get the code to remove these boring popups :)
Stef
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I liked Simon presentation on "reborn smalltlak programmers" http://www.slideshare.net/esug/proposals-for-the-reborn-pharo-developer I think it contains some good ideas in relation to having a better code navigation. My 2 cents... Cédrick
One of the things that set me off was "I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it." Imagine our collective foolishness using scrollbars and other familiar GUI metaphors, and telling a user they might be about to do something they might regret ;) Certainly prompts for confirmation can get out of hand and become counter-productive (that is afterall the subject of this thread). However, you went on to say "Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever." Taken all together, it sounds wreckless to me. -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Philippe Marschall Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:23 AM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Since you ask, LOTS of experience with very similar claims that turned out to be bogus. You did ask. Now would you like to debate the points I rasised?
What's there to discuss when my argument is "it works in practice" and your argument is "I have never tried it but here's why it doesn't work" (which basically boils down to it's not Dolphin)? Cheers Philippe _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
One of the things that set me off was "I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it." Imagine our collective foolishness using scrollbars and other familiar GUI metaphors, and telling a user they might be about to do something they might regret ;) Certainly prompts for confirmation can get out of hand and become counter-productive (that is afterall the subject of this thread).
When I know where I want to go (class, method, ...) I am far faster there in Eclipse than in a Smalltalk browser. A big part of that is scrolling and clicking. Because these are unnecessary actions that just take time. Take the Firefox Awsome Bar as an example. Let's say you want to visit a site that you have visited before. You go to the Awsome Bar (shortcut Ctrl + L) and type part of the title. A list that is automatically filtered is displayed and you can select from there. Compare that with opening the bookmarks menu, selecting the right category, and then searching for the right entry. You don't notice how cool and useful this is until you switch to an other browser that doesn't have this like Safari. An other good example is the Spotlight Search in Mac OS. Staring an application, opening a document, ..., everything just a few key strokes away. No scrolling, no clicking. Code browsing should be like this and Eclipse is far closer to this than the Smalltalk browser.
However, you went on to say "Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever." Taken all together, it sounds wreckless to me.
Based on analysis of how the users used to old software. The pop ups just prevented them from getting work done. The didn't read them, really, often they just clicked them away before they were fully rendered. As soon as they want their pop ups back we put them back. So far nobody did. Cheers Philippe
With respect to the browsers in Pharo, I want to be told before I delete a class or a method; I do not want to be bothered before closing an inspector whose workspace I edited. I **DO** want to be told before closing a workspace with changed text. Just for the record :) As far as keyboard navigation in the browsers, that would be a fine idea. It probably won't surprise you to learn that Object Arts put some careful attention into that too. That in no way has to take the scrolled lists away from the rest of us (I spend a lot of time looking and pondering, for which clicking and scrolling is quite natural). The package pane could be ditched in favor of a right click and selection; the selected package could be shown in the title bar, since that space is already allocated and under used. Dolphin makes a repsectable case for showing a package pane, because it allows multiple selections therein. Even that can be handled by providing a filtered hierarcy browser. Bill -----Original Message----- From: pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Philippe Marschall Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 2:47 PM To: pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] getting rid of these boring questions and popup Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
One of the things that set me off was "I think this whole 80ies style browser that's based on scrolling, clicking and popups doesn't cut it anymore and adding more tabs and buttons isn't gonna fix it." Imagine our collective foolishness using scrollbars and other familiar GUI metaphors, and telling a user they might be about to do something they might regret ;) Certainly prompts for confirmation can get out of hand and become counter-productive (that is afterall the subject of this thread).
When I know where I want to go (class, method, ...) I am far faster there in Eclipse than in a Smalltalk browser. A big part of that is scrolling and clicking. Because these are unnecessary actions that just take time. Take the Firefox Awsome Bar as an example. Let's say you want to visit a site that you have visited before. You go to the Awsome Bar (shortcut Ctrl + L) and type part of the title. A list that is automatically filtered is displayed and you can select from there. Compare that with opening the bookmarks menu, selecting the right category, and then searching for the right entry. You don't notice how cool and useful this is until you switch to an other browser that doesn't have this like Safari. An other good example is the Spotlight Search in Mac OS. Staring an application, opening a document, ..., everything just a few key strokes away. No scrolling, no clicking. Code browsing should be like this and Eclipse is far closer to this than the Smalltalk browser.
However, you went on to say "Short anecdote, I our current project we don't ask the user for confirmation, ever." Taken all together, it sounds wreckless to me.
Based on analysis of how the users used to old software. The pop ups just prevented them from getting work done. The didn't read them, really, often they just clicked them away before they were fully rendered. As soon as they want their pop ups back we put them back. So far nobody did. Cheers Philippe _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
participants (12)
-
Andrey Larionov -
csrabak＠bol.com.br -
Cédrick Béler -
Douglas Brebner -
Esteban Lorenzano -
Fernando olivero -
Hernan Wilkinson -
Igor Stasenko -
Michael Roberts -
Philippe Marschall -
Schwab,Wilhelm K -
Stéphane Ducasse