It's incomprehensible to me that anyone would say Smalltalk shouldn't evolve and improve. Smalltalk isn't perfect; nothing is. Smalltalk isn't the final word on software engineering. Of course it should evolve. And I like the direction that Pharo is taking it. Even the language aspect (syntax) could evolve, if only slightly. Perhaps we can make a *small* concession to concurrency, for example. Nearly every recent modern language has strong concurrency features to support multi-core processors. Ben Coman wrote
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig <
aaron@
> wrote:
For a long time, the term GNU didnât mean much to me. I knew it was âthe free software foundationâ and was related to âCopyLeftâ which is a bit tongue-in-cheek⦠meaning that free software should always be free and open source⦠the opposite of a âCopyRightâ
One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU.
The âGâ stands for âGNUâ so it is recursive as in: GNUNUNUNUNUNUNUâ¦.
So what about the âNUâ part? that stands for âNot Unixâ
So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software foundation is âNot UNIXâ !!!
Interesting that in parallel I came to use the same example :)
I was shocked at first⦠because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The GCC compiler, everything⦠But what they really mean is that when they started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the foundation for Linux which technically isnât Unix but is âUnix-Likeâ - and very similar to SVR4 Unix.
âSmalltalkâ is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of an index card. Itâs âsmallâ get it? But it also collides with âpicking up chicksâ and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too bad but⦠âPharoâ does sound cooler.
You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace âSmalltalk.â They donât want to.
Thats a bit strong for me :). But the next is certainly true.
They donât deny the lineage but they desire their own identity.
Maybe instead of âSmalltalk Renaissanceâ you coin âPNSâ - âPharo Not Smalltalkâ or⦠make the P stand for âPNSâ so it is recursive. PNSNSNSNSNSâ¦.
I don't think its fair to suggest Richard change his message (though I note your humour, I just want to be clear to support Richard here). His stated scope is wider than Pharo. Its just that Pharo is a nice poster child. Now "The Renaissance" produced many new schools of art, each a re-birth based in its past but evolving to something new. I think Pharo aligns with that interpretation, and it would be great if such is compatible with Richard's goals.
Now while Pharo wants to avoid the constraint of "being Smalltalk" - all the great work of the the last four or more years has not shifted it significantly away from being identifiable as "a" Smalltalk. I expect in practice (looking in from outside) that to be the case for a while.
Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNSâ¦. doh!
In my mind⦠for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to happen:
1) A consulting company needs to âkick buttâ and âtake namesâ using this technology
2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run around the country giving appearances and presentations.
That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a âSmalltalk without an image.â So itâs not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature of Smalltalk is lost on the world⦠that is primarily what Rails developers relate with.
With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that âdid stuffâ and cut out Java developers from projects.
With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic figure at any programming conference he attends.
Itâs cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success. *Aaron Rosenzweig* / Chat 'n Bike <http://www.chatnbike.com>; *e:*
aaron@
*t:* (301) 956-2319 [image: Chat 'n Bike] [image:
Chat 'n Bike]
On Jan 1, 2015, at 6:26 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
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