Re: [Pharo-dev] The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
Now I wonder if a history of evolving features from Smalltalk-72 "in the context of Pharo" being another step of evolution would be a useful addition to the Pharo story.
Cheers -Ben
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','horrido.hobbies@gmail.com');>> wrote:
Thank you very much. So please explain how the PR message is not aligned with the technical vision. I don't see any inconsistency.
Ben Coman wrote
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, Ben Coman wrote:
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','
horrido.hobbies@
');>> wrote:
And, yes, I did not do my most thorough homework regarding Pharo, as several of you have pointed out. Frankly, I don't have /that/ much time and energy. I'm old and retired. I'm just doing this for pleasure.
So I rely on /you/ to set me straight.
In process :)
I remind you that I'm just the coordinator of the campaign, because I'm sure none of you have that
much
time to do what I'm doing.
Marcus suggested that anyone can create a Google+ page, but he misses the point. The Google+ page is just one brick in the foundation of the campaign. It's part of a whole.
Norbert suggests that I think I know what to do. No, I have ideas and
I
have a plan. There's no guarantee that it will work. Either you buy into my plan, or you don't. Either I have your support, or I don't. If the latter, I shan't waste any more time (yours or mind).
It's not just a matter of time, but inclination. If you are inclined to
do this, then it should be supported - but it's a matter of getting the PR message aligned with the technical vision. We don't want the market being told one thing then getting a different message here in-list. So you made a misstep here. That's okay, you learn more that way than doing nothing. It may take some more back-n-forth. I hope you continue.
-Ben
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797416.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about. Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about. Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
For a long time, the term GNU didnât mean much to me. I knew it was âthe free software foundationâ and was related to âCopyLeftâ which is a bit tongue-in-cheek⦠meaning that free software should always be free and open source⦠the opposite of a âCopyRightâ One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU. The âGâ stands for âGNUâ so it is recursive as in: GNUNUNUNUNUNUNUâ¦. So what about the âNUâ part? that stands for âNot Unixâ So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software foundation is âNot UNIXâ !!! I was shocked at first⦠because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The GCC compiler, everything⦠But what they really mean is that when they started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the foundation for Linux which technically isnât Unix but is âUnix-Likeâ - and very similar to SVR4 Unix. âSmalltalkâ is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of an index card. Itâs âsmallâ get it? But it also collides with âpicking up chicksâ and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too bad but⦠âPharoâ does sound cooler. You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace âSmalltalk.â They donât want to. They donât deny the lineage but they desire their own identity. Maybe instead of âSmalltalk Renaissanceâ you coin âPNSâ - âPharo Not Smalltalkâ or⦠make the P stand for âPNSâ so it is recursive. PNSNSNSNSNSâ¦. Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNSâ¦. doh! In my mind⦠for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to happen: 1) A consulting company needs to âkick buttâ and âtake namesâ using this technology 2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run around the country giving appearances and presentations. That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a âSmalltalk without an image.â So itâs not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature of Smalltalk is lost on the world⦠that is primarily what Rails developers relate with. With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that âdid stuffâ and cut out Java developers from projects. With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic figure at any programming conference he attends. Itâs cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success. AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike e: aaron@chatnbike.com t: (301) 956-2319 On Jan 1, 2015, at 6:26 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig <aaron@chatnbike.com> wrote:
For a long time, the term GNU didnât mean much to me. I knew it was âthe free software foundationâ and was related to âCopyLeftâ which is a bit tongue-in-cheek⦠meaning that free software should always be free and open source⦠the opposite of a âCopyRightâ
One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU.
The âGâ stands for âGNUâ so it is recursive as in: GNUNUNUNUNUNUNUâ¦.
So what about the âNUâ part? that stands for âNot Unixâ
So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software foundation is âNot UNIXâ !!!
Interesting that in parallel I came to use the same example :)
I was shocked at first⦠because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The GCC compiler, everything⦠But what they really mean is that when they started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the foundation for Linux which technically isnât Unix but is âUnix-Likeâ - and very similar to SVR4 Unix.
âSmalltalkâ is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of an index card. Itâs âsmallâ get it? But it also collides with âpicking up chicksâ and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too bad but⦠âPharoâ does sound cooler.
You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace âSmalltalk.â They donât want to.
Thats a bit strong for me :). But the next is certainly true.
They donât deny the lineage but they desire their own identity.
Maybe instead of âSmalltalk Renaissanceâ you coin âPNSâ - âPharo Not Smalltalkâ or⦠make the P stand for âPNSâ so it is recursive. PNSNSNSNSNSâ¦.
I don't think its fair to suggest Richard change his message (though I note your humour, I just want to be clear to support Richard here). His stated scope is wider than Pharo. Its just that Pharo is a nice poster child. Now "The Renaissance" produced many new schools of art, each a re-birth based in its past but evolving to something new. I think Pharo aligns with that interpretation, and it would be great if such is compatible with Richard's goals. Now while Pharo wants to avoid the constraint of "being Smalltalk" - all the great work of the the last four or more years has not shifted it significantly away from being identifiable as "a" Smalltalk. I expect in practice (looking in from outside) that to be the case for a while.
Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNSâ¦. doh!
In my mind⦠for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to happen:
1) A consulting company needs to âkick buttâ and âtake namesâ using this technology
2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run around the country giving appearances and presentations.
That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a âSmalltalk without an image.â So itâs not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature of Smalltalk is lost on the world⦠that is primarily what Rails developers relate with.
With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that âdid stuffâ and cut out Java developers from projects.
With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic figure at any programming conference he attends.
Itâs cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success. *Aaron Rosenzweig* / Chat 'n Bike <http://www.chatnbike.com> *e:* aaron@chatnbike.com *t:* (301) 956-2319 [image: Chat 'n Bike] [image: Chat 'n Bike]
On Jan 1, 2015, at 6:26 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
It's incomprehensible to me that anyone would say Smalltalk shouldn't evolve and improve. Smalltalk isn't perfect; nothing is. Smalltalk isn't the final word on software engineering. Of course it should evolve. And I like the direction that Pharo is taking it. Even the language aspect (syntax) could evolve, if only slightly. Perhaps we can make a *small* concession to concurrency, for example. Nearly every recent modern language has strong concurrency features to support multi-core processors. Ben Coman wrote
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig <
aaron@
> wrote:
For a long time, the term GNU didnât mean much to me. I knew it was âthe free software foundationâ and was related to âCopyLeftâ which is a bit tongue-in-cheek⦠meaning that free software should always be free and open source⦠the opposite of a âCopyRightâ
One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU.
The âGâ stands for âGNUâ so it is recursive as in: GNUNUNUNUNUNUNUâ¦.
So what about the âNUâ part? that stands for âNot Unixâ
So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software foundation is âNot UNIXâ !!!
Interesting that in parallel I came to use the same example :)
I was shocked at first⦠because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The GCC compiler, everything⦠But what they really mean is that when they started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the foundation for Linux which technically isnât Unix but is âUnix-Likeâ - and very similar to SVR4 Unix.
âSmalltalkâ is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of an index card. Itâs âsmallâ get it? But it also collides with âpicking up chicksâ and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too bad but⦠âPharoâ does sound cooler.
You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace âSmalltalk.â They donât want to.
Thats a bit strong for me :). But the next is certainly true.
They donât deny the lineage but they desire their own identity.
Maybe instead of âSmalltalk Renaissanceâ you coin âPNSâ - âPharo Not Smalltalkâ or⦠make the P stand for âPNSâ so it is recursive. PNSNSNSNSNSâ¦.
I don't think its fair to suggest Richard change his message (though I note your humour, I just want to be clear to support Richard here). His stated scope is wider than Pharo. Its just that Pharo is a nice poster child. Now "The Renaissance" produced many new schools of art, each a re-birth based in its past but evolving to something new. I think Pharo aligns with that interpretation, and it would be great if such is compatible with Richard's goals.
Now while Pharo wants to avoid the constraint of "being Smalltalk" - all the great work of the the last four or more years has not shifted it significantly away from being identifiable as "a" Smalltalk. I expect in practice (looking in from outside) that to be the case for a while.
Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNSâ¦. doh!
In my mind⦠for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to happen:
1) A consulting company needs to âkick buttâ and âtake namesâ using this technology
2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run around the country giving appearances and presentations.
That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a âSmalltalk without an image.â So itâs not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature of Smalltalk is lost on the world⦠that is primarily what Rails developers relate with.
With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that âdid stuffâ and cut out Java developers from projects.
With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic figure at any programming conference he attends.
Itâs cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success. *Aaron Rosenzweig* / Chat 'n Bike <http://www.chatnbike.com>; *e:*
aaron@
*t:* (301) 956-2319 [image: Chat 'n Bike] [image:
Chat 'n Bike]
On Jan 1, 2015, at 6:26 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797590.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean this part... "most people think Smalltalk is dead and a relic of the past and we want to avoid that negative connotation" I meant this... "because the next thing always is 'No, don't do that, you can't change anything'. Pharo was started precisely because we want the freedom to change things where necessary (on all levels, VM, language, compiler, runtime, libraries, concepts, tools, ..)". Now to directly address you points * additional new features It is 30 years since Smalltalk-80 was released. Has there been so little advancement in non-Smalltalk fields that there is nothing to learn or improve? What about the the next 30 years? Now actually, features already differ between members of the Smalltalk family. [1] * syntax that extend Smalltalk I haven't seen much movement towards changing syntax. * desirable quality of Smalltalk /language/ is its pure simplicity. You are right. We need to take care here. But we want to avoid someone coming along saying "you can't do that! that's not Smalltalk!" For example... "Whether Squeak should comply with ANSI Smalltalk is a common flame war.[2]" * Pharo /environment/ (including the tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you can't really call Pharo a "new language." Actually I don't see anyone running around saying "we've made a new language." What I've seen is that its more about the environment. But the separation between language & environment is a grey area for Smalltalk (the language is so minimal). Saying "Pharo is not Smalltalk" is a pragmatic approach to dealing with [2]. Saying it first helps avoid compliance-based arguments later if anyone is surprised that something changes. But I think its fair to consider Pharo in the Smalltalk family. You might consider similarities with "GNU's Not Unix". cheers -ben [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6368337/whats-the-difference-of-ansi-smal... [2] http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/172 On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:26 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Richard, some people choose to face it and some to evade it. Itâs okay. I actually see as healthy that people try bold strategies aligned with the missions they embrace. And I also see that is okay the community as a whole tries many strategies because concentrating is too risky and eventually from quantity comes quality. Nature loves to try everything and select what works best selecting in retrospective. The things that end up providing good results will have appreciation and replication in the next generation and the things that results so-so would be part of the story because even if reality wanted to go other direction, that people followed their mission and made their contribution. So time will tell. Recently Iâve answered in Quora this question What is the most influential software product or programming language that was ever created? <https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-influential-software-product-or-progr...> and I cited the interview to Steve Jobs where he is telling the story of how he was inspired by seeing Smalltalk demoed in the Alto. After that, he knew how to create the right UX in the MacIntosh. That story is so crucial and inspiring that Malcom Gladwell <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Gladwell> wrote in the New Yorker about it <http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/16/creation-myth>. Painfully enough for us, not mentioning Smalltalk in his writing which was the artifact at the epicenter of that inspiration (I really wonder why it wasnât mentioned, is really weird). But even if it wasnât mentioned, it doesnât matter, not even Gladwell can re-write history and Smalltalk had and has a protagonist role in it. Given that Smalltalk has actually inspired Steve at that moment in time and the consequences in our culture, the impact is so massive that I am surprised that anyone would not to chose to embrace it with arms, legs and teeth. But, as said, thatâs okay. The Multiverse has space for everybody. Possibilities are more abundant than ever. I think that everybodyâs contribution is valuable, the Pharo community in particular, and that we are very lucky in having you wanting to do some PR for Smalltalk in general and Pharo in particular. Lastly, I donât see Smalltalk as the ultimate language but for me is the one that is less far away from it. Until that utopian language of the future gets real, youâll probably found me stuck to Smalltalk :)
On Jan 1, 2015, at 9:26 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great programming language in the future. There is no such thing as perfection, but no other language could come closer than Smalltalk. Well, maybe Scheme, but I always have trouble grokking this language. I'm amused by the vast number of new languages that have popped up over the past decade or so. Every one of them purports to be easy to use and highly productive...once you get passed the learning curve, that is. To me, all of these languages are simply repackaging language features in different combinations and interpretations in pursuit of the mythical benefits of productivity and efficiency. They are basically chasing after their own tail. The common metric they all seek is "expressiveness". They think the ultimate in expressiveness may come from functional programming, or some weird algebraic syntax, or whatever else they dream up. What a colossal waste of effort. Meanwhile, the solution has been in front of them for four decades. Go figure. sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote
Richard, some people choose to face it and some to evade it. Itâs okay.
I actually see as healthy that people try bold strategies aligned with the missions they embrace.
And I also see that is okay the community as a whole tries many strategies because concentrating is too risky and eventually from quantity comes quality.
Nature loves to try everything and select what works best selecting in retrospective.
The things that end up providing good results will have appreciation and replication in the next generation and the things that results so-so would be part of the story because even if reality wanted to go other direction, that people followed their mission and made their contribution.
So time will tell.
Recently Iâve answered in Quora this question What is the most influential software product or programming language that was ever created? <https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-influential-software-product-or-programming-language-that-was-ever-created/answer/Sebastian-Sastre?__snids__=868638797&__nsrc__=1&__filter__=all>; and I cited the interview to Steve Jobs where he is telling the story of how he was inspired by seeing Smalltalk demoed in the Alto. After that, he knew how to create the right UX in the MacIntosh.
That story is so crucial and inspiring that Malcom Gladwell <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Gladwell>; wrote in the New Yorker about it <http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/16/creation-myth>;. Painfully enough for us, not mentioning Smalltalk in his writing which was the artifact at the epicenter of that inspiration (I really wonder why it wasnât mentioned, is really weird). But even if it wasnât mentioned, it doesnât matter, not even Gladwell can re-write history and Smalltalk had and has a protagonist role in it.
Given that Smalltalk has actually inspired Steve at that moment in time and the consequences in our culture, the impact is so massive that I am surprised that anyone would not to chose to embrace it with arms, legs and teeth.
But, as said, thatâs okay. The Multiverse has space for everybody. Possibilities are more abundant than ever.
I think that everybodyâs contribution is valuable, the Pharo community in particular, and that we are very lucky in having you wanting to do some PR for Smalltalk in general and Pharo in particular.
Lastly, I donât see Smalltalk as the ultimate language but for me is the one that is less far away from it.
Until that utopian language of the future gets real, youâll probably found me stuck to Smalltalk :)
On Jan 1, 2015, at 9:26 PM, horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
> wrote:
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it, you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer. However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
Ben Coman wrote
On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language". I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797595.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
*Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..* Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit. a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing usage of the technology but not essential. b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform not a langauge ), it is question of : Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its* usable frameworks:* * Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers. * Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs. *Pharo Platform:* * The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks. * Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable. * The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its platform progressing together. *PR:* * Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it. * I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens before the year runs out. On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:01 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great programming language in the future.
On Jan 2, 2015, at 4:18 AM, S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com> wrote:
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.
This is the kind of thing Iâm working on here <https://github.com/flow-stack/flow> which uses Amber at the frontend and Pharo at the backend. I would be very interested in hearing your review. Iâm currently working in making installation easier to lower the initial friction. Also, if you have ideas on what is needed to get to that 1 to 3h prototype goal, you are welcome to share your thoughts in the input/feedback column of this trello board: https://trello.com/b/oQ17lPpV/flow <https://trello.com/b/oQ17lPpV/flow>
From a wide survey done for Openstack:
"the top four business drivers, according to the user survery, were Ability to Innovate, Open Technology, Cost Savings and Avoiding Vendor Lock-In. Ability to innovate is ranked first" This message can be showcased in examples of Pharo deployments and direct user reports. Sudhakar krishnamachari On Jan 2, 2015, at 11:48 AM, S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com> wrote:
Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..
Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.
a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing usage of the technology but not essential.
b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform not a langauge ), it is question of :
Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its usable frameworks:
* Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.
Pharo Platform:
* The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks.
* Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.
* The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its platform progressing together.
PR:
* Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.
* I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground
Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens before the year runs out.
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:01 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote: Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great programming language in the future.
Interesting. Now as I always say: do and build trust. Our plates are full but there are plenty to empty plates around. Stef Le 3/1/15 03:07, Krishsmalltalk a écrit :
From a wide survey done for Openstack:
"the top four business drivers, according to the user survery, were *Ability to Innovate, Open Technology, Cost Savings and Avoiding Vendor Lock-In.* Ability to innovate is ranked first"
This message can be showcased in examples of Pharo deployments and direct user reports.
Sudhakar krishnamachari
On Jan 2, 2015, at 11:48 AM, S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com <mailto:krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com>> wrote:
*Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..*
Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.
a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing usage of the technology but not essential.
b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform not a langauge ), it is question of :
Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its*usable frameworks:*
* Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.
*Pharo Platform:*
* The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks.
* Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.
* The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its platform progressing together.
*PR:*
* Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.
* I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground
Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens before the year runs out.
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:01 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote:
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great programming language in the future.
the "reformation of software engineering" is a bit loaded. see http://semat.org As a funny thing, they also have Essence. phil Le 3 janv. 2015 09:54, "stepharo" <stepharo@free.fr> a écrit :
Interesting. Now as I always say: do and build trust. Our plates are full but there are plenty to empty plates around.
Stef
Le 3/1/15 03:07, Krishsmalltalk a écrit :
From a wide survey done for Openstack:
"the top four business drivers, according to the user survery, were *Ability to Innovate, Open Technology, Cost Savings and Avoiding Vendor Lock-In.* Ability to innovate is ranked first"
This message can be showcased in examples of Pharo deployments and direct user reports.
Sudhakar krishnamachari
On Jan 2, 2015, at 11:48 AM, S Krish <krishnamachari.sudhakar@gmail.com> wrote:
*Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..*
Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.
a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing usage of the technology but not essential.
b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform not a langauge ), it is question of :
Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its* usable frameworks:*
* Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.
*Pharo Platform:*
* The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks.
* Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.
* The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its platform progressing together.
*PR:*
* Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.
* I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground
Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens before the year runs out.
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:01 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great programming language in the future.
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day, *every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single penny. Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my wife! Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted. /Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding. This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign. No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough. The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> . -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797675.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Am 03.01.15 um 15:18 schrieb horrido:
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day, *every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single penny.
Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my wife!
Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted. /Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.
This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign. No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.
The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> .
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797675.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
What do you want to tell us?
This is informational, to tell you something about the Smalltalk Foundation, to tell you why there hasn't been a PR campaign before. The takeaway should be that the SRP should not be taken lightly; it is very, very important. Unless you think the promotion of Smalltalk is not worthy of such efforts. (Believe it or not, there are actually people in the Smalltalk community who think this.) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797677.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
You Le 3 janv. 2015 15:20, "horrido" <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> a écrit :
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling
to
complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day, *every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single penny.
Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my wife!
Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted. /Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.
This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign. No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.
Ah ah. How wrong. I 'd just say that ruffling feathers of people will not help the cause. On the marketing side, people aren't buying technology. They are buying its benefits. As in "no need for a drill, what I want is getting the picture frame on the wall". As such Pharo/Smalltalk or whatever has no specific benefit. What is the benefit is the kind of people who are attracted to it and use it. Phil
The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> .
Mad Men is a bit over these days of disintermediation. At one point they tried to sell us radium enriched underwear... Just have been closing deals for 15 years on my own. Good marketing is about being an object of interest so that leads do6 trust you and are willing to go for added value. Phil
-- View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797675.ht...
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
You are absolutely correct. People do not buy technology; they buy the benefits of that technology. However, you have to first /sell/ them on the idea of Smalltalk before they will listen to your message. This is what the SRP is all about. You are talking to them, but they aren't listening to you. You are fighting perceptions and prejudices. You have to appeal to them on a /psychological basis/. That's what marketing is all about. On small local scales, you have achieved success with your clients. But if you want to grow the Smalltalk market, you cannot rely solely on grassroots and word of mouth. I've already shown you how Smalltalk has fallen off the cliff in public mindshare. Ignore this at your own peril. Denial is not a river in Africa. As for the Smalltalk Foundation, I am not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. I am merely stating my observation. AFAICT, the SF is more of the same old, same old. What are they going to do differently moving forward? I haven't seen a plan, beyond their mission statement. But more importantly, I haven't seen a PR plan. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797685.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Yes Richard youâre doing something that helps to expand the Smalltalk ecosystem, thatâs great! Just have in mind that you need to manage all as campaign, including internal communication Keep telling us what communication opportunities you think we have and Iâm sure more than one will be interested in them. BTW podcasts are a great thing Iâve been listening to Dave and Craigâs podcasts and they are making a great job at that Also Phil who recently interviewed Herby the current Amber lead maintainer I love radio, here is my favourite radio program <http://www.radiolab.org/>, like Seth Godin <http://sethgodin.typepad.com/>said, is like a theatre for the mind, and radio is hard to do. But saving distances, those podcasts are kind of creating the radio experience around Smalltalk. It feels they can print some humane touch that we wonât have in forums or mail lists or IRC. I think we are having a great 2015 start
On Jan 3, 2015, at 12:18 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day, *every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single penny.
Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my wife!
Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted. /Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.
This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign. No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.
The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> .
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797675.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Proposed full-page ad for placement in IT magazines: My Tumblr page <https://38.media.tumblr.com/a4ffd41e778c244391d6fce9b0b3f332/tumblr_nhmm4cy5...> It's a teaser. It's branding. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797696.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
BTW, it took me *a whole frickin' day* to produce this ad!!! I wasn't familiar with the image-editing tools I was using, so I was using trial and error. Three or four times, I gave up completely and started from scratch! *This is hard work.* horrido wrote
Proposed full-page ad for placement in IT magazines: My Tumblr page <https://38.media.tumblr.com/a4ffd41e778c244391d6fce9b0b3f332/tumblr_nhmm4cy5...>
It's a teaser.
It's branding.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797726.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hi Richard, here is something that might lead to qualified feedback so you can improve any design: Please take a look at this: http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/19927/where-can-i-go-to-rec... this site aimed to feedback http://zurb.com/tavern <http://zurb.com/tavern> consider this: http://99designs.com <http://99designs.com/> And this book is fantastic on design for non-designers: http://www.amazon.com/Non-Designers-Design-Book-Robin-Williams/dp/0321193857... <http://www.amazon.com/Non-Designers-Design-Book-Robin-Williams/dp/0321193857...>
On Jan 4, 2015, at 1:17 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
BTW, it took me *a whole frickin' day* to produce this ad!!! I wasn't familiar with the image-editing tools I was using, so I was using trial and error. Three or four times, I gave up completely and started from scratch! *This is hard work.*
horrido wrote
Proposed full-page ad for placement in IT magazines: My Tumblr page <https://38.media.tumblr.com/a4ffd41e778c244391d6fce9b0b3f332/tumblr_nhmm4cy5...>
It's a teaser.
It's branding.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797726.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Our Facebook page needs some TLC (2 Likes so far; looks rather lonely). PLEASE, go there and "Like" it! -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797643.ht... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
participants (9)
-
Aaron Rosenzweig -
Andreas Wacknitz -
Ben Coman -
horrido -
Krishsmalltalk -
phil＠highoctane.be -
S Krish
-
Sebastian Sastre -
stepharo