Yeah I did not phrase it the way I wanted it. I have used scoped several times to understands its purpose but each time I failed to see why its useful. I fail to see why opening a browser that displays a single package is important. But I guess if that's what people like , I can always ignore that button :) I have to confess I was never and probably will never be a fan of the system browser. I think the overall Smalltalk design wastes a lot of GUI space and provides me with info I mostly not need. Like a continuous display of a list of packages, classes and protocols / methods when the only thing I need to see all the time is the method source. On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 3:58 PM Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
Some remarks:
Yes: - yes, we are still working on Nautilus, and some of the things we are trying now will change (for example, I do not think we need the history dropdown there having the back/forward icons⦠and in any case since they are talking about the same, they should be close) - yes, we can add other functionality, as Franck posted, thatâs why we ask for those functionality. Now if nobody answers, do not expect we can know what you want :) - yes, using abbreviated names there is bad. (Hier., Com.) we need to find a better place. - yes, âvariablesâ is not so relevant and I would like to move it to a place where does not look as is. I use it all the time, but in regular programming people should not need to use it all the time. Weâll see.
Nos: - no, we are not going to put back buttons in the middle of the browser: what is a toolbar, should be where toolsbars go. I know many if you are used to the older way, but that older way was bad: the original idea was to put functionality close to the coding area⦠no reason to do that this days. - actually, I do not have more ânosâ for now, but I want to keep this open, for the future ;)
Some others: - the fact that you never used âScopedâ is actually the reason why we put it in such a relevant place: is one of the most powerful functionalities of Nautilus and we want you to have access to it in a direct and visible place. So you can start to use it. Using âI never used itâ as an argument does not work because in exchange I can say âthis is the function I use the most of nautilusâ. Give it a try, is particularly useful for: a) applying refactors, b) search senders/implementors inside my project and not in all image. - actually, I would like to remove also the buttons that acts on classes (most of them needs to be tabs in the right places). In my ideal browser, functionality is distributed like this:
⦠but arriving to it is not so easy.
I *very* much like this concept of tabs rather buttons. Some ideas...
You could have a [Scoped] tab next to [Packages]. Actually, beyond providing a label (which I do like), the [Classes] tab doesn't seem to serve much purpose. So maybe spread one tabbing area across the top of both panes 1 & 2. Then you have more room for multiple tabs... [Packages/Classes] [ Scope1] [Scope]. This area might scroll tabs horizontally. You should be able to rename a tab by direct action - just double-clicking or similar.
Above panes 3 & 4, there seems there might be room to name the tabs... [Instance protocols/methods] [Class protocols/methods] [Variables] and eliminate one level of tabs.
I like how panes 3 & 4 seems joined together. The same would look nice between panes 1 & 2. This conveys in a subtle way the panes are paired together.
A nice shortcut to ]add packages to a scoped tab would be... Ctrl-C in [Packages/Classes] tab to copy selected packages Ctrl-V in [ScopeXX] tab to.
Can [Definition] tab be named [Instances Definition] - and to be clear, I do think plural is correct. Or... maybe that gets confusing since we often talk about a "Class Definition" while looking at the instance-side definition. Perhaps they should be [Definition] [Meta Definition][Comment]
Or alternatively, I rarely see definitions taking up much of the code space. Now since previously the <Class-side> checkbox was tied to mode of both definition and methods, but here tabs would seem to allow these to be selected independently... perhaps there might be a single [Definition] tab split vertically into two panes showing instance-side and class-side definitions at the same time. Or maybe just one pane but the text of class-sdie definition appended to instance-side definition.
Perhaps selecting a method #myMethod adds a code pane tab [myMethod]. The name of the tab would change each time a different method is selected, but also you could pin a tab, thus making use of the empty space to the right of the [Comment] tab.
One thing that sometimes annoys me with current Nautilus, is that to view a class definition, I need to deselect the method and loose my context there. Tabs seem a great way to be able to flick back and forth without loosing context.
cheers -ben
In conclusion: We are doing some right steps. It is not finished, but we are not going to go back to older way :)
cheers, Esteban
On 19 Aug 2015, at 10:04, Franck Warlouzet <franck.warlouzet@hotmail.fr> wrote:
There is free space for another functionnality. I asked for ideas of buttons before doing Scoped one (and it appeared that scoped is used by people). Variables is often used too, and there is no shortcut to browse all the access to the variables of a class so I think it is needed. They seem more needed than a button with an action which can be triggered by cmd + n or m in the same context than when you are about to clic on it (selector selected).
The toolbar may take time to be loved, but I think new users are more used to a bar with functionnalities on top of a window than a middle bar. I would put all the buttons on top but I understand the strong link of hierarchy, class and comments with the classes panel so it is ok.
And yes, the layout handling in this case is very painful.
Franck
------------------------------ From: kilon.alios@gmail.com Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 20:49:34 +0000 To: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org; pharo-users@lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Nautilus questions
I agree with your post about the buttons. Personally I have never used scoped or really need it as feature , I dont think I would be needing variables either. Actually two buttons I miss from Squeak is implementers and senders which I found super useful.
On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 11:00 PM Peter Uhnák <i.uhnak@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
maybe I'm too picky, but I have couple of questions/remarks regarding current Nautilus UI. Now, I'm happy that new features were added/reorganized, but it does feel it is a little bit chaotic right now.
<2015-08-18_191053.png> I would expect the left/right history buttons being right next to the History Navigator selector. That way history-related controls are together and the purpose of the buttons is obvious
"Hier.", "Com."... abbreviating button labels? Really?
âAnd finally, why was part of the buttons moved up? And part stayed down? I know that you wanted to distinguish "Scoped", because it opens a new browser, and Variables, because they have intermediate menu (and later open another menu). But I think the fact that Variables are tied to a particular selected class would make much more sense to place the button beside hierachy/class button.
And opening Scoped can be denoted with an appropriate icon ( https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=new+windo... )
Placing them all on a single line would also save up vertical space, which considering we've added QualityAssistant and Rubric adds another line is quite valuable.
(And finally the width of the buttons should perhaps match more closely the actual needs of the label, because now it's bit cramped.)
<2015-08-18_214348.png> â And finally, code-wise I've never really interacted with Morphic and stayed in Spec, so when I was digging through code it seems that the way Morphs are composed are through these "addMorph:fullFrame: (LayoutFrame identity rightFraction: 0.10; yourself);" constructs sprinkled haphazardly throughout the code. Is there nothing like SpecLayout? Maybe it wasn't so hard once you get used to Morphic, because I spent probably more time doing elementary changes to layout than learning half of Spec... (Also since Spec can interoperate with Morphic, maybe the layout could also be adapted? Or slowly migrate Nautilus to Spec (if there are even plans like that)?)
Now as I've mentioned I'm not an UI/UX expert, but you don't need to be a chef to tell when food isn't great (which is of course amplified by personal tastes).
So unless I am the only person bothered by this, I would like to raise a discussion (or send a slice, but the way I've done the layout weirds me out, so I still want to look into that regardless).
Cheers, Peter
