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Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Eliot, Interesting news... On Linux? Is there a good place to hunt for examples? Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Eliot Miranda [eliot.miranda(a)gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 2:41 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 12:36 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu<mailto:bschwab@anest.ufl.edu>> wrote: GÃ¶ran, Thanks for what you do, and for noticing what I (at least try) to contribute. Some other "tangible" items in my queue *will* be worth the wait[*]. I sincerely hope you are correct about a misunderstanding being at the base of thread. Hopefully, we can all dust ourselves off [**] and make FFI robust everywhere. Best regards, Bill [*] I know I've said this for essentially Pharo's entire life cycle, but it's true... Callbacks, my kingdom for callbacks. Callbacks in Cog work. The threaded VM needs work, but synchronous callbacks from blocking FFI calls work now. You may have to integrate image-level code but the VM has support and it works. [**] Some US slang for Stef's benefit :) ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr> [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project-bounces@lists.gforge.inria.fr>] on behalf of GÃ¶ran Krampe [goran(a)krampe.se<mailto:goran@krampe.se>] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:05 AM To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found Hi guys! On 01/09/2012 09:36 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > On 09 Jan 2012, at 20:06, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> I think you have the situation very much in reverse. You are flying off the handle, not me. >> >> Cog deserves better than to ignore feedback from motivated users. Motivated users deserve better than to be insulted for their efforts to improve it. > > Pharo, Squeak, Cog, Seaside, and most other Smalltalk software on SqueakSource is open source, written almost exclusively by people in their free time. And although most of them will try to help the users of their software the best they can, they cannot and should not do just anything unless they want to. The relation between open source authors and their users should be mutually productive. Using software and giving feedback if one thing, but it is not enough. It can't be one way all the time. > > I might be wrong, but I fail to find > > - any issues you put in the issue tracker(s) > - any issues you solved > - any open source software you published on SqueakSource or anywhere else > - any blog post or web pages with documentation, tutorials, .. that you wrote > > I hope you get the point: there are many more ways to contribute than what you are doing now. > > Pharo and other projects need all the help they can get, give back to the community, we are all using software written by others in the same spirit, it is only fair to honor these contributions. > > My 2c, This thread is long dead but I just wanted to mention that Wilhelm Schwab is a long time Squeaker and has been active in the community long before Pharo was even born. ;) Now, it seems to me that the "heat" in this particular thread was based on a misunderstanding, I know Eliot and it didn't seem to me he was trying to insult. General observation: Try taking it easy on the "what the heck have you done for us?"-talk. I have made several such similar posts too over the years when I got frustrated, but it might backfire if you aren't shooting at the "right people". We take pride in being a friendly community (Smalltalk at large) and I presume Pharo does too :) regards, GÃ¶ran -- best, Eliot

Jan. 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found

by Eliot Miranda

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 12:36 AM, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu>wrote: > GÃ¶ran, > > Thanks for what you do, and for noticing what I (at least try) to > contribute. Some other "tangible" items in my queue *will* be worth the > wait[*]. I sincerely hope you are correct about a misunderstanding being > at the base of thread. > > Hopefully, we can all dust ourselves off [**] and make FFI robust > everywhere. > > Best regards, > > Bill > > [*] I know I've said this for essentially Pharo's entire life cycle, but > it's true... Callbacks, my kingdom for callbacks. > Callbacks in Cog work. The threaded VM needs work, but synchronous callbacks from blocking FFI calls work now. You may have to integrate image-level code but the VM has support and it works. > > [**] Some US slang for Stef's benefit :) > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [ > pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of GÃ¶ran Krampe [ > goran(a)krampe.se] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:05 AM > To: pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found > > Hi guys! > > On 01/09/2012 09:36 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > On 09 Jan 2012, at 20:06, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> I think you have the situation very much in reverse. You are flying > off the handle, not me. > >> > >> Cog deserves better than to ignore feedback from motivated users. > Motivated users deserve better than to be insulted for their efforts to > improve it. > > > > Pharo, Squeak, Cog, Seaside, and most other Smalltalk software on > SqueakSource is open source, written almost exclusively by people in their > free time. And although most of them will try to help the users of their > software the best they can, they cannot and should not do just anything > unless they want to. The relation between open source authors and their > users should be mutually productive. Using software and giving feedback if > one thing, but it is not enough. It can't be one way all the time. > > > > I might be wrong, but I fail to find > > > > - any issues you put in the issue tracker(s) > > - any issues you solved > > - any open source software you published on SqueakSource or anywhere else > > - any blog post or web pages with documentation, tutorials, .. that you > wrote > > > > I hope you get the point: there are many more ways to contribute than > what you are doing now. > > > > Pharo and other projects need all the help they can get, give back to > the community, we are all using software written by others in the same > spirit, it is only fair to honor these contributions. > > > > My 2c, > > This thread is long dead but I just wanted to mention that Wilhelm > Schwab is a long time Squeaker and has been active in the community long > before Pharo was even born. ;) > > Now, it seems to me that the "heat" in this particular thread was based > on a misunderstanding, I know Eliot and it didn't seem to me he was > trying to insult. > > General observation: Try taking it easy on the "what the heck have you > done for us?"-talk. I have made several such similar posts too over the > years when I got frustrated, but it might backfire if you aren't > shooting at the "right people". We take pride in being a friendly > community (Smalltalk at large) and I presume Pharo does too :) > > regards, GÃ¶ran > > > -- best, Eliot

Jan. 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, My modified proposal simply adds new protocol that you can safely ignore. The "basic" #next, #next: etc. will be just as broken as ever ;) The new methods are better because they DO raise exceptions. Your lost time can be fixed by using #nextAvailble:, which explicitly authorizes truncation, because there are indeed times when one needs that. I've tried to make us both happy, with me jumping through the extra hoop of using the new methods. Thanks for looking. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 2:27 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:03 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > Sorry - I think you should do what I am asking :) > > Specifically, I'm asking that we add a few methods. They will complain under conditions that some might find "violent," but if not used, they won't change anything. > > The alternative (best solution IMHO) would be to change behavior, but even Cincom didn't want to go that far with #next. They *did* at least consider it. > > Is that helpful? Please note that your English dwarfs my (non-existent) French. Some days, I forget you are from across the pond. Let me know if I can clarify anything. Yes thanks. I have some work to finish and I will have a real look at the problems and solutions. I remember that I hated the exception raised in VW for at end. I made me lose hours of strange behavior. > > Bill > > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:46 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found > > On Jan 31, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Stef, >> >> Thanks. I think you will find that it will sit idly by and hurt nothing; it will help anyone who uses it, even if they don't realize it going into the process. Going back in time, it took me time to realize that OA got it right > > sorry bill your english lost me completely. Can you phrase for non native :) ? > > Stef > >> >> Bill >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:23 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found >> >> Ok I will have a look at your stream proposal. >> >> Stef >> On Jan 31, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> Sig, >>> >>> Deal. Please have a look at my alternate steams proposal - the added #nexMany:, #nextOne, etc. I have given up on making streams robust with existing protocol, so adding some methods is the answer. When a stream hits the end, it needs to squawk - the added methods will help me help you, and (IMHO) are our most likely course forward. >>> >>> I use LOTS of streams, so it's a Big Deal(TM). But please check the docs and see what you think. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua(a)gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:33 AM >>> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found >>> >>> On 31 January 2012 17:21, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >>>> Sig, >>>> >>>> Search. I've said it for YEARS now - I've been VERY CLEAR ON THIS. Maybe I'm too clear?? Yes, I'm mad, but not enough to hurt Smalltalk, and not really at you. >>>> >>>> How about an electronic handshake and some movement toward making FFI work? >>>> >>> i am not offended. >>> and of course i will continue my work towards making FFI work >>> regardless of having enemies around or not, >>> because i also need it for myself :) >>> >>> so, lets keep moving.. and cooperate on fields we can. >>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko. >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >

Jan. 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:03 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > Sorry - I think you should do what I am asking :) > > Specifically, I'm asking that we add a few methods. They will complain under conditions that some might find "violent," but if not used, they won't change anything. > > The alternative (best solution IMHO) would be to change behavior, but even Cincom didn't want to go that far with #next. They *did* at least consider it. > > Is that helpful? Please note that your English dwarfs my (non-existent) French. Some days, I forget you are from across the pond. Let me know if I can clarify anything. Yes thanks. I have some work to finish and I will have a real look at the problems and solutions. I remember that I hated the exception raised in VW for at end. I made me lose hours of strange behavior. > > Bill > > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:46 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found > > On Jan 31, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Stef, >> >> Thanks. I think you will find that it will sit idly by and hurt nothing; it will help anyone who uses it, even if they don't realize it going into the process. Going back in time, it took me time to realize that OA got it right > > sorry bill your english lost me completely. Can you phrase for non native :) ? > > Stef > >> >> Bill >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:23 PM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found >> >> Ok I will have a look at your stream proposal. >> >> Stef >> On Jan 31, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: >> >>> Sig, >>> >>> Deal. Please have a look at my alternate steams proposal - the added #nexMany:, #nextOne, etc. I have given up on making streams robust with existing protocol, so adding some methods is the answer. When a stream hits the end, it needs to squawk - the added methods will help me help you, and (IMHO) are our most likely course forward. >>> >>> I use LOTS of streams, so it's a Big Deal(TM). But please check the docs and see what you think. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua(a)gmail.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:33 AM >>> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found >>> >>> On 31 January 2012 17:21, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >>>> Sig, >>>> >>>> Search. I've said it for YEARS now - I've been VERY CLEAR ON THIS. Maybe I'm too clear?? Yes, I'm mad, but not enough to hurt Smalltalk, and not really at you. >>>> >>>> How about an electronic handshake and some movement toward making FFI work? >>>> >>> i am not offended. >>> and of course i will continue my work towards making FFI work >>> regardless of having enemies around or not, >>> because i also need it for myself :) >>> >>> so, lets keep moving.. and cooperate on fields we can. >>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Igor Stasenko. >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >

Jan. 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, Sorry - I think you should do what I am asking :) Specifically, I'm asking that we add a few methods. They will complain under conditions that some might find "violent," but if not used, they won't change anything. The alternative (best solution IMHO) would be to change behavior, but even Cincom didn't want to go that far with #next. They *did* at least consider it. Is that helpful? Please note that your English dwarfs my (non-existent) French. Some days, I forget you are from across the pond. Let me know if I can clarify anything. Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 1:46 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found On Jan 31, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > Thanks. I think you will find that it will sit idly by and hurt nothing; it will help anyone who uses it, even if they don't realize it going into the process. Going back in time, it took me time to realize that OA got it right sorry bill your english lost me completely. Can you phrase for non native :) ? Stef > > Bill > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:23 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found > > Ok I will have a look at your stream proposal. > > Stef > On Jan 31, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Sig, >> >> Deal. Please have a look at my alternate steams proposal - the added #nexMany:, #nextOne, etc. I have given up on making streams robust with existing protocol, so adding some methods is the answer. When a stream hits the end, it needs to squawk - the added methods will help me help you, and (IMHO) are our most likely course forward. >> >> I use LOTS of streams, so it's a Big Deal(TM). But please check the docs and see what you think. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua(a)gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:33 AM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found >> >> On 31 January 2012 17:21, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >>> Sig, >>> >>> Search. I've said it for YEARS now - I've been VERY CLEAR ON THIS. Maybe I'm too clear?? Yes, I'm mad, but not enough to hurt Smalltalk, and not really at you. >>> >>> How about an electronic handshake and some movement toward making FFI work? >>> >> i am not offended. >> and of course i will continue my work towards making FFI work >> regardless of having enemies around or not, >> because i also need it for myself :) >> >> so, lets keep moving.. and cooperate on fields we can. >> >>> Bill >>> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> > > >

Jan. 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Jan 31, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Stef, > > Thanks. I think you will find that it will sit idly by and hurt nothing; it will help anyone who uses it, even if they don't realize it going into the process. Going back in time, it took me time to realize that OA got it right sorry bill your english lost me completely. Can you phrase for non native :) ? Stef > > Bill > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:23 PM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found > > Ok I will have a look at your stream proposal. > > Stef > On Jan 31, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > >> Sig, >> >> Deal. Please have a look at my alternate steams proposal - the added #nexMany:, #nextOne, etc. I have given up on making streams robust with existing protocol, so adding some methods is the answer. When a stream hits the end, it needs to squawk - the added methods will help me help you, and (IMHO) are our most likely course forward. >> >> I use LOTS of streams, so it's a Big Deal(TM). But please check the docs and see what you think. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua(a)gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:33 AM >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found >> >> On 31 January 2012 17:21, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >>> Sig, >>> >>> Search. I've said it for YEARS now - I've been VERY CLEAR ON THIS. Maybe I'm too clear?? Yes, I'm mad, but not enough to hurt Smalltalk, and not really at you. >>> >>> How about an electronic handshake and some movement toward making FFI work? >>> >> i am not offended. >> and of course i will continue my work towards making FFI work >> regardless of having enemies around or not, >> because i also need it for myself :) >> >> so, lets keep moving.. and cooperate on fields we can. >> >>> Bill >>> >> >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko. >> >> > > >

Jan. 31, 2012

[Pharo-project] Fwd: [vwnc] Smalltalk for small projects only?

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

-------- Prvotno sporoÄilo -------- Datum: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 07:54:58 -0600 Od: Peter Hunsberger <peter.hunsberger(a)gmail.com> With all due respect to the experience of everyone here, people really need to give up on this naive belief that Smalltalk development is any more efficient than development in any other language. The simple fact is that within the Smalltalk community a large portion of the developers have been using the tools for a long time and are very good at using them. Throw them at another environment and they are not as efficient. However, if you take new developers and throw them at a Smalltalk project it takes longer to get them up to speed than throwing them at a Java project simply because of the fact that Smalltalk is not as ubiquitous. I switched to Java back when IBM dropped Smalltalk, so I've seen both sides of this issue for a long time, so let me related some anecdotal experience: I'm currently working on a Smalltalk project that has about about 50 man years of effort in it over 10 years. Prior to this I worked on a Java and XSLt project that had about the same effort over the same period. Both have web based GUI's with a fair amount of JavaScript and the usual HTML crud and use a relational DB back end (SQL server and Oracle respectively). The Smalltalk project has had a mix of very experienced Smalltalk developers and inexperienced ones. The Java project was mainly junior and intermediate experience devs. I'd say the overall architecture and design was about equivalent; very different, but equally well done and comprehensive. The projects are very similar in concept and execution. The Java project had about twice as many function points (some pretty major) implemented and four times as many use cases supported at the point I switched to the Smalltalk project. For the most part this has little to do with the language itself. Rather, it is mainly, the supporting infrastructure that one is able to draw on in Java projects and this includes Eclipse, Git, etc. Open Source projects also played a big part of this, in the Java world one can pull in large chunks of functionality at very low cost (eg. XSLt 2.0 processors and pipelines, Spring, Hadoop, you name it) that are just not quite matched in the Smalltalk world. You can often get close, but it seems that there is always something missing, if only because the teams supporting the Smalltalk projects are often much smaller and just can't quite keep up with the every changing specs and requirements. Bottom line, don't kid yourself that there is any inherent advantage in using Smalltalk development over any other language. It is faster for experienced devs in small projects, but if you've got to pull a team together from scratch for some medium to large complexity enterprise scale project it is probably not going to fair as well. Now onto the main question posed here.... I have also worked on a successful 200 man year project (C and C++ in this case), which broke down to a little less than 100 people over a little more than 2 years. This was in the telecom world and involved many main frame billing interfaces and switching equipment interfaces, all very mission critical. In this case about 60% of the team was heads down developers. The rest of it was dedicated testers, tech writers, business analysts, project managers and managers. Here again the supporting infrastructure played an important role. Business analysts could write up use cases that got stored in a repository (a proprietary system) that could be used to generate test case stubs and documentation stubs. The development team tracked progress and bug reports in the same repository and source code version control was tied to the repository. End user documentation was stored in the repository and version controlled. It was simple to know what was going on anywhere in the project and to know where the problems were and what code did what and to see the entire life cycle of any portion of the code base from customer requirement to final deliverable. I know of no support infrastructure that even comes close in the Smalltalk world and would consider it madness to even consider taking on such a project using Smalltalk. Peter Hunsberger On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:37 AM, laurent laffont <laurent.laffont(a)gmail.com <mailto:laurent.laffont@gmail.com>> wrote: 200 developers on a project ? Scaring ..... They should use another technology than Java to go under 50 developers. They will save a lot of money :) Laurent 2012/1/28 Janko MivÅ¡ek <janko.mivsek(a)eranova.si <mailto:janko.mivsek@eranova.si>> Hi guys, Ralph Johnson in his InfoQ interview made an interesting observation: 2:55 minute: "Smalltalk made an fundamental error ... image ... you can build something with 4-5 people what 50 people can build in Java, but if you take 200 people in Java ... it is really designed for small systems ... " Are we because of the image really destined for relatively small projects and small systems (of Java 50 people project size)? Are we really not able to scale to bigger projects/systems because of that? Ok, there are few exceptions of course (JPMorgan, OOCL, ..), but still... [1] http://www.infoq.com/interviews/johnson-armstrong-oop Best regards Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Jan. 31, 2012

[Pharo-project] Fwd: [vwnc] Smalltalk for small projects only?

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

-------- Prvotno sporoÄilo -------- Datum: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:07:34 -0800 Od: Jon Paynter <kittle31(a)gmail.com> > Dear Niall, > Thanks for comprehensive report, the biggest project reported so far. > I forwarded it to Squeak and Pharo mailing lists. > Has anyone data for other big Smalltalk projects/systems, like OOCL > etc? OOCL has 2 smalltalk projects The small one with 2,200 classes and 2 developers The larger one ranged from 20-50 developers (my guess), and currently has 24,000 classes. And the last time it was measured (a few years ago) we had around 8million lines of code. And my own personal $0.02 on productivity: One place I worked at as a contractor was a java shop. I was just learning java, so my skills at that time were lousy. We had a small project to do, and I managed to get 2 weeks of time from the local java expert. She came highly recommended by everyone, and after watching her work, she was in deed VERY good. After 2 weeks of struggle, we failed to finish the project. Afterwards, I sat down and did the project in visualworks ( from scratch) in 1 day. Experience matters, but using the right tool for the job is where its at.

Jan. 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] Another video tutorial

by Lawson English

Thanks for the link. This is an example of a pattern that doesn't seem to be supported by any tool: Grabbing a subset of a package's functionality and tweaking/extending it independently of the original package. I can see the need for doing it, but the end-result is that new features are only added to to the subset, and any bug-fixes are only applied to the subset as well. Anyone know of a better way to handle this? L. On 1/31/12 10:05 AM, Ben Coman wrote: > Lawson English wrote: >> >> Latest squeak tutorial. Connectors how-to: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1LveflchAU >> >> as an aside, it seems to me that Connectors should be ported back to >> Pharo, because it can be very useful I am finding. >> >> Lawson >> >> > There is http://www.squeaksource.com/MinimalConnectors.html > used by http://www.squeaksource.com/smallUML.html > > I just happened to have found this yesterday. The following worked > for me in Pharo-1.3-13315... > > Gofer it > squeaksource: 'smallUML'; > package: 'ConfigurationOfSmallUML'; > load. > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfSmallUML) project latestVersion load. > > DiagramDrawingDocumentation openDiagramBrowser > > > > > >

Jan. 31, 2012

Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found

by Schwab,Wilhelm K

Stef, Thanks. I think you will find that it will sit idly by and hurt nothing; it will help anyone who uses it, even if they don't realize it going into the process. Going back in time, it took me time to realize that OA got it right Bill ________________________________________ From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of StÃ©phane Ducasse [stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr] Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 12:23 PM To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found Ok I will have a look at your stream proposal. Stef On Jan 31, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Sig, > > Deal. Please have a look at my alternate steams proposal - the added #nexMany:, #nextOne, etc. I have given up on making streams robust with existing protocol, so adding some methods is the answer. When a stream hits the end, it needs to squawk - the added methods will help me help you, and (IMHO) are our most likely course forward. > > I use LOTS of streams, so it's a Big Deal(TM). But please check the docs and see what you think. > > Bill > > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] on behalf of Igor Stasenko [siguctua(a)gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:33 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Cog+linux: external module not found > > On 31 January 2012 17:21, Schwab,Wilhelm K <bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >> Sig, >> >> Search. I've said it for YEARS now - I've been VERY CLEAR ON THIS. Maybe I'm too clear?? Yes, I'm mad, but not enough to hurt Smalltalk, and not really at you. >> >> How about an electronic handshake and some movement toward making FFI work? >> > i am not offended. > and of course i will continue my work towards making FFI work > regardless of having enemies around or not, > because i also need it for myself :) > > so, lets keep moving.. and cooperate on fields we can. > >> Bill >> > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > >

Jan. 31, 2012